The Un-Intended Eye Opener Of 27th Feb:---

[Critical]

@MastanKhan , I agree with you, I have already stated it in my yesterday post, on 26th during the attack by the Indians PAF acted politically not militarily. The let the Indians run away, despite having them on sight and locked. They should have downed 5/10 IAF fighters. But they chickened out because the higher command didn't wanted to escalate war. When someone attack your sovereignty, it has already started war. Not to act is cowardice.
PA has given lollipop to the people far too long. It has to stop.

Chickened, lollipop. I always believe that there was an external agenda to defame our forces. This was supported by the political forces as well nd it worked. Thanks to Modi that this agenda got busted.

 

[MastanKhan]

First, I am not arguing you or some particular person, instead the argument. Not interested in arguing someone specific. I respect others views also.

Secondly, yes I know the difference between incompetency and decision making and I am saying PAF is competent and deliver whatever decision is made.

And the decision is made by people who have greater awareness and vision that's we don't have, specially the awareness part.

My English is not good but I think you can understand what I am trying to say.

Hi,

Taking gun camera pictures of targets and handing them around does not show awareness---.

When talking about war---you are not arguing---but taking a stand and making your position known---.

When talking about the welfare of your motherland---you need to learn to fight with tooth and nail about your concerns and your beliefs---.

If somone feels bad---then scr-ew them---it is your motherland---.

Never assume that they know better than you or have the welfare of the country forefront---Gen Kiyani / Gen Pasha / ACM Qamar---were sell outs---they sold out pakistan's integrity to the US during the obl saga---.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Chickened, lollipop. I always believe that there was an external agenda to defame our forces. This was supported by the political forces as well nd it worked. Thanks to Modi that this agenda got busted.

True isn't!! Why otherwise let your attackers survive!!

 

[alphibeti]

People who think PAF is incompetent on 26 Feb should also think who is incompetent on 27 Feb when PAF shows their competency.

Competency doesn't change in a day.

We don't really know. It might be the case that Pak leadership really wanted to avoid following a collision course. PAF was probably was instructed not to shoot down any intruding Indian planes (at that point no one knew what Indians were up to) but push them back (they probably realized much later that Indians have dropped/jettisoned their bombs too). That might have been based on their knowledge of the broader picture (we, the commoners, have access to public domain information only). Alternatively, PAf did not realized the Indian aggression timely and by the time PAF scrambled, IAF dropped the payload and escaped). We don't know much about all this. But the subsequent actions by Pak (such as letting the IN subs to back unharmed) point to the former case. May be Pak knows the real players are other than Modi or Indians. Or may be Pak wanted to let CPEC bear fruitation before Pak gets embroiled in a devastating war. May be China advised us to show utmost restraint. After all, that's the Chinese way to focus on development first by warding off war.

Apologies in advance, but... Our decision makers don't have the capacity to see beyond their seats. India had actually announced war on Pakistan, when they built first dam on rivers flowing in to Pakistan! and the list is long. Have you ever seen Pakistani reaction on a single occasion.
This time around it was an old school war and our leaders are refusing to accept it war! are they normal?
What is beyond abnormal is that, Indian PM had given Pakistan dead line to return pilot and after return, they had even refused to thank.



In such case even people in US administration would have been surprised.

Agreed completely. Cannot agree more.

 

[ajpirzada]

Firstly, not interested in Media as have been taking my sides' fanboys, both media and otherwise, on too. Too many self styled experts around.

Secondly, you might want to consider looking at the effect on a missile detonating due to proximity fuse on an Air to Air Missile's seeker and motor assembly. (Proximity fuse on R-73 is a fact)

Your comments on the undermentioned (old) photos?

View attachment 548440

View attachment 548441

I am sure you can make out that this is a seeker head of, perhaps, AIM-9 Sidewinder?

I may be wrong about the missile type in the above example, I concede.

I think you did not even go to the link? It is your government's official claim. Supposedly they have the 'electronic evidence' to prove this claim.

You missed the point. Parts of R-73 and R-77 missiles were found with the wreckage meaning none of the missiles were fired. (edit: I have noticed that you and others have already made arguments for and against in previous posts. Let's skip it then. No use to repeat the same arguments)

Anyways, thank you for your time.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

China would be way behind if it was not for AM Latif and his team---. The US should not have pis-sed off pakistan with sanctions---.

You had to listen to Latif's interview to understand the conviction in his cause---and to deal with the chinese---who are very head strong and to charm them and tame them to do his bidding and to think the way that he thought of a design problem and its solution is an eye opener.

yes he is beaming like a proud father who saw his concept bring fruit and wow in what a grand way.
American sanctions were a blessing in disguise that only increased the conviction of this single minded F-16 fighter pilot.
he proudly mentions how he and Chinese managed to keep it under wraps and didn't let the word know what we were cooking. his own words gives away how much he must have pushed his own team and the Chinese on not to be complicit with an acceptable level but excel for an exceptional product naming it as F-17 and adding J for the Chinese contribution. this part alone confirms your analysis in the end that AM Latif had F-16 as a benchmark and constantly calls it better than F-16 (at least better than the earlier blocks) now we have success story and the block production in place like the F-16s. I am sure Chinese wont need more convincing to give importance to quality and perfection in aviation project.

 

[The Eagle]

Still, proofs will only be shared when Officials deem it fit to release in public domain. Till then, all the tantrums, taunts & even sometimes insults; wouldn't come handy at all rather a disappointment to see how people indulges in such below the belt conversation. It was all about to follow SOPs, ROEs & above all, making a strong case before International Forum. Every single step to gain superiority, was taken strategically as well as tactically. Some of us want a gun blazing rambo in every scene but this is a real time situation where ego of a man alone does not matter at all. It is more about making the right decision in view of long-very long term gains.

It is necessary to understand the doctrine & tactics and if I am not able in these regards, rather than throwing tantrums; would ask politely.

Regards,

 

[batmannow]

Hi,

Taking gun camera pictures of targets and handing them around does not show awareness---.

When talking about war---you are not arguing---but taking a stand and making your position known---.

When talking about the welfare of your motherland---you need to learn to fight with tooth and nail about your concerns and your beliefs---.

If somone feels bad---then scr-ew them---it is your motherland---.

Never assume that they know better than you or have the welfare of the country forefront---Gen Kiyani / Gen Pasha / ACM Qamar---were sell outs---they sold out pakistan's integrity to the US during the obl saga---.

Bro ,
Thts the stuff , ppls in pakistan hardly swallow, cause thier minds been programed only to look for brightness but when it comes to see the grey , thier eyes gets closed themselves?
And yes , genrals played a political game , cause thy became , master of tht game , real game is in afghanistan where they wanted to get full price and if that conflict taken long then thy would have lost the fruits from afghanistan , right now no one can tell tht israeli pilot been given to saudis job with welldone ???
Out of that , they ill get what ? And when it still has to be seen?
or I gss I cant discus further then tht , but they have showen india where it stands with its out dated and commission eaten weaponry ?
It has really exposed india millitarly in front of whole world on which whole world is laughing even a alpha like donald trump?
Who has jst gave a big shut up call to thier , establishments blue eyed mike pompeo ?

Still, proofs will only be shared when Officials deem it fit to release in public domain. Till then, all the tantrums, taunts & even sometimes insults; wouldn't come handy at all rather a disappointment to see how people indulges in such below the belt conversation. It was all about to follow SOPs, ROEs & above all, making a strong case before International Forum. Every single step to gain superiority, was taken strategically as well as tactically. Some of us want a gun blazing rambo in every scene but this is a real time situation where ego of a man alone does not matter at all. It is more about making the right decision in view of long-very long term gains.

It is necessary to understand the doctrine & tactics and if I am not able in these regards, rather than throwing tantrums; would ask politely.

Regards,

Officailly modi been told to bow down , infront of pakistan ,and he has to do that just becsuse of the israeli pilot ?
Officially we hve more to astonish indian nation , which still been fooled by modi and his cow piss drinking fellows on the name of mah bharat version 4.0 ???
Untill ur so called commission eating military not bring any credible proofs other then any photoshoped pics or some edited hollywood movie clips for their rescue , whole world will keep laughing at them , cause thy been exposed pants down infront of whole world ,I feel pain and real sympathy for a soilder like abhinandan who tried his best for his country with that outdated jet , to fight back , as a former soilder I can feel what he is going through , he did what was been asked from him , but then why he been made silent because his voice can explode the whole dirty game of your dirty politicains ???
Because of his soildering he been dealt with respect but what india gave him ????

 

[Vortex]

@MastanKhan

Let it as it is, what have been done is done and we cannot change that.
Just pray that this decision was the good one and we should stand by our Armed Forces. And I would say also, for the first time we should stand by our government.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Shameless Liar

1) Watch from 3:00 onwards. Their MEA officially claim that Abhinandan shot down the F-16 as part of a prepared statement.

So your contention that some other IAF fighter could have shot down F-16 is not in line with what Indians are claiming. Also this press briefing was on March 9th. Full 10 days after the incident and after the ejected pilot was returned. So anything they claim on March 9th in a prepared statement has to considered their official final position.

1a) So Point # 1 and 2 of my analysis are established facts.
1b) You can argue about conclusions drawn in Point # 3; but they are also based on strong circumstantial evidence.
1c) Only thing more concrete would be for PAF to showcase all of its F-16s or at least the dual seat ones. But this can only happen after de-escalation.

2) Also we keep forgetting that the DG ISPR's comment about non-usage of F-16 came as part of an answer to a journalist's question. So it was not part of prepared statement. Indian MEA did not even take questions on Feb 26 & 27. You can carefully draft statements that are read out. But questions have to be answered extemporary. So its entirely possible that DG ISPR was pointing to fact that no F-16 was used as part of strike package, so none was close to LOC where Indian claims to have shot it down.

 

[MastanKhan]

yes he is beaming like a proud father who saw his concept bring fruit and wow in what a grand way.
American sanctions were a blessing in disguise that only increased the conviction of this single minded F-16 fighter pilot.
he proudly mentions how he and Chinese managed to keep it under wraps and didn't let the word know what we were cooking. his own words gives away how much he must have pushed his own team and the Chinese on not to be complicit with an acceptable level but excel for an exceptional product naming it as F-17 and adding J for the Chinese contribution. this part alone confirms your analysis in the end that AM Latif had F-16 as a benchmark and constantly calls it better than F-16 (at least better than the earlier blocks) now we have success story and the block production in place like the F-16s. I am sure Chinese wont need more convincing to give importance to quality and perfection in aviation project.

Hi,

There was a reason why the americans did not want him to be the ACM---. You see him talk---you can see the fire burning in him---and this is the only time that hs true self has come out---otherwise he was just a retd AM who was the director of a fighter program---.

I mean to say some generals and some ceo's would give their left and right nut to get the bragging rights that this man has---.

A longtime ago I had written that the JF17 was the outshoot of the f16---F18---F20 Tigershark and the modular capability of the grippen---and am just an observor with engineering background and some other stuff---.


For him to tackle the chinese Phd's and make them think and see thru his mind---and make them do what he wanted---is a Nishan A Haider achievement---.

That step was a miracle in itself to make the chinese realize that a doable can be done.

The chinese would not have done it by themselves---.

There had to be an outside power who had to have a knowledge of their abilities and capabilities---who had known and operated the top performing aircraft of the world and was a top performer himself---only he and his team had the vision---and with that vision---he pushed and pushed the chinese to way past their capabilities and abilities---. He had to show the chinese the light and the chinese had to believe in him to see his vision for it to happen---.

This incidence has simply shook the weapons world to its core roots---.

I think that even the chinese would have a hard time in believing what had happened on the 27th---. Incidents like that just don't happen---.

 

[Mav3rick]

Hi,

The nation does not need to know anything other than we shot down more enemy aircraft---that is all---.

You should never let the enemy know which one of your systems has been successful---.

My friend, the enemy is already aware which system was used to shoot down their Jet/Jets. Abhinandan is aware how he was shot down and if another Jet was shot down then that pilot also know how he was shot down. Besides, ground based radars and AEW systems of both countries were airborne at that time and they would have enough intel on all platforms being used.

The only ones who do not know are the ones who matter, who are bickering on forums and other e-platforms on which country came up on top in the encounter. Besides, don't you have any idea what it would do to our ego, our morale and our unity if it is factually disclosed that Thunders downed not only a Bison but also an MKI and that too using merely Chinese avionics, firecontrol radars, ew, missiles etc.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Apologies in advance, but... Our decision makers don't have the capacity to see beyond their seats. India had actually announced war on Pakistan, when they built first dam on rivers flowing in to Pakistan! and the list is long. Have you ever seen Pakistani reaction on a single occasion.
This time around it was an old school war and our leaders are refusing to accept it war! are they normal?
What is beyond abnormal is that, Indian PM had given Pakistan dead line to return pilot and after return, they had even refused to thank.
In such case even people in US administration would have been surprised.

Spot on, for decades, the policy is to bury the head in the sand and pretend "Saab Theek hai". As a result we have extended our tolerance level such that on 26th when IAF even have attacked area in International borders of Pakistan, not just Azad Kashmir, they still think it was nothing and PA has acted wisely to not shoot down IAF fighters on 26th. Basically they have already set the precedence that India can bomb us when it likes, we will not even shot their jets in case it gets angry and start war. Cowardice at its best.

Still, proofs will only be shared when Officials deem it fit to release in public domain. Till then, all the tantrums, taunts & even sometimes insults; wouldn't come handy at all rather a disappointment to see how people indulges in such below the belt conversation. It was all about to follow SOPs, ROEs & above all, making a strong case before International Forum. Every single step to gain superiority, was taken strategically as well as tactically. Some of us want a gun blazing rambo in every scene but this is a real time situation where ego of a man alone does not matter at all. It is more about making the right decision in view of long-very long term gains.

It is necessary to understand the doctrine & tactics and if I am not able in these regards, rather than throwing tantrums; would ask politely.

Regards,

The Eagle, just tell me please, is it OK for the Indian's IAF to bomb Pakistan inside the international borders whenever its like and IAF flown back without any retaliation on that night!! Is this the strategy that we are tolerant to the attacks and wouldn't even issue orders to our pilots to shoot down IAF fighters!!
I am told that was the policy implemented by high ups. Is this true!! If it is what happened to their resolve to protect Pakistan at all costs!!

 

[GriffinsRule]

@MastanKhan , I agree with you, I have already stated it in my yesterday post, on 26th during the attack by the Indians PAF acted politically not militarily. They let the Indians run away, despite having them on sight and locked. They should have downed 5/10 IAF fighters. But they chickened out because the higher command didn't wanted to escalate war. When someone attack your sovereignty, it has already started war. Not to act is cowardice.
PA has given lollipop to the people far too long. It has to stop.

How do you all this information about PAF having locked on Indian jets and not firing due to high command orders?

 

[crankthatskunk]

And yes , genrals played a political game , cause thy became , master of tht game , real game is in afghanistan where they wanted to get full price and if that conflict taken long then thy would have lost the fruits from afghanistan.

Afghan game respected Sir is way older than current crisis. I predicted what would happen to India few years back in one of my post on Siasat.Pk.
Everything has happened almost as I predicted. It was easy to see, if you have foresight and understand a little bit of history.

right now no one can tell tht israeli pilot been given to saudis job with welldone ???
Out of that , they ill get what ? And when it still has to be seen?

Are you sharing an information!! IF Israeli is given to Saudis then it is a very interesting development. Did Saudis requested it!!

or I gss I cant discus further then tht , but they have showen india where it stands with its out dated and commission eaten weaponry ?
It has really exposed india millitarly in front of whole world on which whole world is laughing even a alpha like donald trump?

I agree on India's humiliation part, because of their lies they have exposed themselves further. They think the world is naive like India voters that they would buy crap from Modi. Every excuse they have used until now to cover up for their failures proven to be a fig leaf.

Who has jst gave a big shut up call to thier , establishments blue eyed mike pompeo ?

Yeah, Trump's remarks that USA have good relations with Pakistan after Pompeo's interview is a big slap at his secretary of state by Donald Trump. Do you think they are playing the oldest game in Politics, "The Good Cop and the Bad Cop"!!!!

Officailly modi been told to bow down , infront of pakistan ,and he has to do that just becsuse of the israeli pilot ?

You mean from the spanking on 27th Feb!!

Officially we hve more to astonish indian nation , which still been fooled by modi and his cow piss drinking fellows on the name of mah bharat version 4.0 ???
Untill ur so called commission eating military not bring any credible proofs other then any photoshoped pics or some edited hollywood movie clips for their rescue , whole world will keep laughing at them , cause thy been exposed pants down infront of whole world

I am certain that PA has plenty of video evidence to embarrass Indians further without shadow of a doubt. If one check my posts in recent days, I have constantly maintained that India suffered far more losses on 27th than what had been revealed until now. I am certain of that because of Modi's dejected comments regarding Rafale and his face expressions. He looked like a beaten man.
Indians have made their case and damage their status as a nation further by indulging in lies, which they ought to have known would be exposed. In today's day and age, you cannot get away with BS. That's what Indians do, BS most of the time.

I feel pain and real sympathy for a soilder like abhinandan who tried his best for his country with that outdated jet , to fight back , as a former soilder I can feel what he is going through , he did what was been asked from him , but then why he been made silent because his voice can explode the whole dirty game of your dirty politicains ???
Because of his soildering he been dealt with respect but what india gave him ????

I feel sorry for Abhinandan as well, poor soul, he has kept his promise that he would say the same when he is back in India. He should have known better that in India truth is a rare commodity.
By the way, can you reveal on what rank you retired!!

How do you all this information about PAF having locked on Indian jets and not firing due to high command orders?

I have repeatedly said I don't have any insiders. It had been reveal on this forum. You will find it if you go through the posts.