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The Un-Intended Eye Opener Of 27th Feb:---

@crankthatskunk Noone on this forum has any actual information about what happened as it has not been shared by the PAF, esp not the kind of details you think have been revealed. Any members coming up with such details are only speculating as to what may have happened. Take everything with a pinch of salt and believe only hard facts.
 
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@crankthatskunk Noone on this forum has any actual information about what happened as it has not been shared by the PAF, esp not the kind of details you think have been revealed. Any members coming up with such details are only speculating as to what may have happened. Take everything with a pinch of salt and believe only hard facts.

Well, in that case people shouldn't claim such. It is intellectual dishonesty. I have never ever claimed it, because I don't have much interactions with Pakistanis. Not with the super brass at least.
 
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It is beyond comprehension that Modi would pass the comments he did about Rafale and sacking of their head of Western Command would have happened for the loss of a junk Mig 21.
Oh dont forget, he was retired not fired, as per Indians. LOL


There is nothing like "Secular" it is only state of mind. With some it stays long, life long. Some get rid of it quickly if they decided to study a little. By the way for gentleman , the secular, or those without religious beliefs had been the most cruel killers in history.

And here we go, please stop talking as it is clear you know nothing of human history or behaviour. You dont even have surface level understanding of what Secularism encompasses or is about, instead your sprouting right wing non-sense.

Recovering all four missiles AFTER almost a month is laughable.

Pakistan is HIDING something.

Yeah we are hiding another of your pilot disowned by you guys.

From the start until now I had been worried about this part. If you see my comments history, I was fearful our Army is going to show restrain in hitting the enemy. Big mistake. We should have caused maximum damage when we had a chance. If 5/10 fighters of India were downed , the story would have been completely different.
I have commented multiple times that India's losses are far more. I know they should have been, when you get air superiority and control of the theater you do maximum damage to the enemy, both in the air and on the ground.
Pakistanis have made a huge blunder, which they are going to pay in very near future, mark my words. I will reproduce this and my earlier posts as evidence.
Look what the Americans did in Iraq when they had air superiority, the lay the whole Iraq force to waste. We had the opportunity on 27th to kill thousands of Indians, we should have done it.
Now India is going to retaliate with full force, we may not be lucky this time. Don't get me wrong I hope we are, but still a grave error on PA.

You really are a crackpot arent you? This was not an all out war, this was nothing but a skirmish, but this had all the potential to turn into a full scale war you maniac. India never wanted an all out war, instead wanted to feel superior, got its a$$ handed to it. Pakistan on the other not effectively thought Indians a lesson but successfully thwarted any and all Indian plans to establish a new narrative of dominance.

Get through this your thick skull, Kashmir can not be resolved via War, the solution had to be via talks.

I

Them niggas had yellow cake ready for us!!!

You asked for it :sick:

HAHAHA, Dave Chappel reference, nicely done.

I also have sneaky feelings, a big attack is planned right now and it is on its way before Indian elections. Modi is wounded, he is licking his wounds, he will come back with orders to his military to attack with overwhelming force and on multiple fronts.

Hi,

See again---Indira Gandhi was right---pak generals do not have the ballz---.

It was time to decimate the enemy---why such cowardice from general command---.



Hi---,

I am not your atypical pakistani---. I don't understand one liners or spins easily---. Write clearly what you want to say---.

And here kicks in your bipolar disorder, please make up your mind. You seriously need to see a psychiatrist.

@MastanKhan , spot on. It had been going on for far too long, no one taking the responsibilities and hard decisions in Pakistan. On other forum I always write that Pakistani men have no balls. Our failures on diplomatic fronts are glaring. India is doing open terrorism in Pakistan via their proxies for years but not a single Pakistani raised it in world forums. Our journalists cannot put two English sentences together, there is complete lack of Pakistan's point of view in world press. What they do in their programs is discuss the write ups in NYT, Washington Post etc. etc.
The other day Sabir Shakir was reading some English document in his program, man that was just embarrassing. How can such journalists represent and safe guard Pakistan's interests in the world!!! How these crooks beg and ask questions from Sharifs and Zardaris is also painful to see. Put Bilawal Bhutto, the traitor in front of me and I will smoke him in 10 minutes. But there is no one in Pakistan to do that.
Similarly, Pakistan's army have made a very bad mistake, I am not going to repeat it, because I have already written many posts on it. Definitely on the first night they were sleeping, even when they did airborne, their aim was to usher the IAF jets out of Pakistani airspace, too scared to strike. Shameful.

The only thing that is of little sense in this rant of yours is lack of English news channels to put forward Pakistan POV, instead we have seriously retarded urdu news channel which for most sound like bunch of clowns.
The rest is typical trademark nonsense from you.
 
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Spot on, for decades, the policy is to bury the head in the sand and pretend "Saab Theek hai". As a result we have extended our tolerance level such that on 26th when IAF even have attacked area in International borders of Pakistan, not just Azad Kashmir, they still think it was nothing and PA has acted wisely to not shoot down IAF fighters on 26th. Basically they have already set the precedence that India can bomb us when it likes, we will not even shot their jets in case it gets angry and start war. Cowardice at its best.

The Eagle, just tell me please, is it OK for the Indian's IAF to bomb Pakistan inside the international borders whenever its like and IAF flown back without any retaliation on that night!! Is this the strategy that we are tolerant to the attacks and wouldn't even issue orders to our pilots to shoot down IAF fighters!!
I am told that was the policy implemented by high ups. Is this true!! If it is what happened to their resolve to protect Pakistan at all costs!!

1) Based on the type of comments you are making it appears you are neglecting or are not aware of the basics of air combat.

2) You can not build a barrier in air that prevents someone from entering it. Now you can cover every inch of airspace with some weapon that if somebody enters you can fire on them. Defending airspace is not same thing as defending you house or a post or land border.

3) So lets see what happened on Feb 26th:

3-i) Based on media reports we know Indian Aircraft came in by 4-5 Nautical Miles(that's around 10 Km). Dropped Spice-2000 Bombs(around 60 Km range) and exited. 10 Km at around 1000 Km/h takes around 30-40 sec to cover. 1000 Km/h is roughly 0.8 Mach, most fighters can easily fly faster.

3-ii) Spice-2000 has a reported range of 60 Km(roughly the distance of Balakot from LOC). The actual range(generally less then reported range) would depend on speed of flying aircraft and its altitude above ground level. Because eventually Spice-2000 bombs glides to their target, so speed and altitude of launching aircraft determine how far it can go. If you release Spice-2000 early it would not have enough flight time to make it to its target. Note: target was in a mountainous region well above the see level and on a mountain top.

3-iii) There were multiple diversionary IAF formations coming close to Pakistan Airspace at the same time at different locations along the border.

3-iv) So PAF would have directed its CAPs(already in air) to deal with some of the 3 x IAF formations while remaining would have been dealt with using formations(on 3 min alert) that took off from nearby airbases.

3-v) PAF formations would have locked-on to intruders. This would alerted intruders as well. After locking and before you can fire you have to wait for 2 things:

3-v-a) Target comes in effective firing range. Effective range(20-60 Km) of BVR missiles is well below their max range(around 100 Km). And this varies depending on position of interceptor relative to intruder e.g. if interception is head-on or chase-mode. So as a intruder I also know this, so I can press-on a bit, then turn my tail towards interceptor and exit(and this is what happened on Feb 26).

3-v-b) Rules of engagement.

3-vi) On night of Feb 26, either both or at least 1 of the conditions was not met; BUT under time-pressure from approaching PAF interceptors IAF released payload before reaching optimal range and exited OR as DG ISPR put it pre-maturely. Now how I come to conclusion that payload was released prematurely. We know the bombs fell short of their target. Now I would not expect Israeli kit to be that unreliable that all 4 of them could not hit their target even if they were solely relying on GPS/INS. Only one thing explains this, an early release not leaving enough flight-time for them to make it to their target and what would cause IAF to make this mistake? Possibly only time-pressure from approaching interceptors.

3-vii) Pilots in the interceptors or controllers at AHQ would not have know if any payload was released or not. So it did not make sense for them to keep chasing IAF into IOK.

3-viii) It would have been later through reports from local police/army units that it would have been established that something was actually dropped.

3-ix) So it was natural to establish first what was hit (if anything) and what is extent of damage. Because this would determine what targets PAF would hit.

3-x) PAF follow-up was more than sufficient and very next day in broad day-light. For few pine trees we hit grounds/empty spaces around their military installation and shot down 2 of their fighter jets.

If you are still not satisfied; I would advise you instead of writing mere rhetoric, write something more concrete. Like what do you suggest PAF should have done instead of what it did. Discussing the technical means to do it and Indian Reaction etc.
 
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Hi

The Paf blundered the first night for not being ready to entrap the enemy aircraft ---that showed---either there was no planning ahead of time even though the enemy had already announced its intentions---Paf was scared to take on the enemy---Paf just plain and simple failed to understand the level of the threat---.

The day 2 was more of a show and pomp calculated strike---.

The night combat would have been the real show and tell of the Paf---.

I am just letting you children have some moments to enjoy---but tactically---the Paf failed the first night---.

The Paf were thinking to play the same drama of 2008 of popping up of picture of an indian aircraft lock to the media---.

But this time the reaction from the public was so furioius and angry---that the Paf was forced to do something---.

The pakistani public literally m-f'd the Paf and ispr after the first night---.

How incompetent the Pak military was---how un-prepared pak military was---they had to wake up their prime minister at 3 am---.

That showed a total lack of leadership---a total lack of understanding the enemy threat---a total lack of comprehending what the enemy was saying---.

So---just cherish these few moments of joy and your rhetoric---.
I dont know how many nautical miles they came and minutes, but they used SOW weapons and PAF hasn't much reaction time. Waking up PM is SOP during these situations.
 
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Hi,

There was a reason why the americans did not want him to be the ACM---. You see him talk---you can see the fire burning in him---and this is the only time that hs true self has come out---otherwise he was just a retd AM who was the director of a fighter program---.

I mean to say some generals and some ceo's would give their left and right nut to get the bragging rights that this man has---.

A longtime ago I had written that the JF17 was the outshoot of the f16---F18---F20 Tigershark and the modular capability of the grippen---and am just an observor with engineering background and some other stuff---.


For him to tackle the chinese Phd's and make them think and see thru his mind---and make them do what he wanted---is a Nishan A Haider achievement---.

That step was a miracle in itself to make the chinese realize that a doable can be done.

The chinese would not have done it by themselves---.

There had to be an outside power who had to have a knowledge of their abilities and capabilities---who had known and operated the top performing aircraft of the world and was a top performer himself---only he and his team had the vision---and with that vision---he pushed and pushed the chinese to way past their capabilities and abilities---. He had to show the chinese the light and the chinese had to believe in him to see his vision for it to happen---.

This incidence has simply shook the weapons world to its core roots---.

I think that even the chinese would have a hard time in believing what had happened on the 27th---. Incidents like that just don't happen---.
this post is a tribute to that Air Marshall.
I have seen him on talk shows sometimes being hackled and trolled by non serious politicians but by Grace of Allah he is the one having the last laughs
you see how even one or two right people on the top have such a multiplier effect that is life changing for a nation. PAF has gained respect and the attention across the air force world. indeed such events don't just happen at random and also they dont happen as a fluke.
this just reminds me that I must conduct the interview with one of the pioneering engineers/ officers of this program who was responsible for the avionics of the Jet in the early years.
 
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this post is a tribute to that Air Marshall.
I have seen him on talk shows sometimes being hackled and trolled by non serious politicians but by Grace of Allah he is the one having the last laughs
you see how even one or two right people on the top have such a multiplier effect that is life changing for a nation. PAF has gained respect and the attention across the air force world. indeed such events don't just happen at random and also they dont happen as a fluke.
this just reminds me that I must conduct the interview with one of the pioneering engineers/ officers of this program who was responsible for the avionics of the Jet in the early years.

I still remember when AVM SL was retired from Airforce in order to please USA,... gurus of this forum used to preach, he is retired because he's a mental case.
AVM SL took his revenge from Americans, when jF-17 scored kills against US trained and hand picked pilots, in indo-Pak war 27-02-2019.
He was betrayed by civilian rulers, he came to talk shows and proved that he's on top of the best of the best civilian think tanks.
It's about time, that we start to hire people on merit. Today, NON of the state minister deserve to be even a tea boy, but they are deciding on how to waste billions.
 
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I still remember when AVM SL was retired from Airforce in order to please USA,... gurus of this forum used to preach, he is retired because he's a mental case.
AVM SL took his revenge from Americans, when jF-17 scored kills against US trained and hand picked pilots, in indo-Pak war 27-02-2019.
He was betrayed by civilian rulers, he came to talk shows and proved that he's on top of the best of the best civilian think tanks.
It's about time, that we start to hire people on merit. Today, NON of the state minister deserve to be even a tea boy, but they are deciding on how to waste billions.
I agree with your commentary
AM Latif has shown endurance and dedication even after retirement. despite facing non serious and hostile hosts and idiotic guests he has kept his grace and manner while sticking to his guns

lets leave the political criticism for another time and thread
 
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In an all out war, Ground forces of Pakistan will have 1-2 days to advance as much as they can inside India. After that the overwhelming India forces will not let advance any further.
1 or 2 div of light commandos riding Technicals deep into enemy area would buy us lot of time.
 
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1) Based on the type of comments you are making it appears you are neglecting or are not aware of the basics of air combat.

2) You can not build a barrier in air that prevents someone from entering it. Now you can cover every inch of airspace with some weapon that if somebody enters you can fire on them. Defending airspace is not same thing as defending you house or a post or land border.

3) So lets see what happened on Feb 26th:

3-i) Based on media reports we know Indian Aircraft came in by 4-5 Nautical Miles(that's around 10 Km). Dropped Spice-2000 Bombs(around 60 Km range) and exited. 10 Km at around 1000 Km/h takes around 30-40 sec to cover. 1000 Km/h is roughly 0.8 Mach, most fighters can easily fly faster.

3-ii) Spice-2000 has a reported range of 60 Km(roughly the distance of Balakot from LOC). The actual range(generally less then reported range) would depend on speed of flying aircraft and its altitude above ground level. Because eventually Spice-2000 bombs glides to their target, so speed and altitude of launching aircraft determine how far it can go. If you release Spice-2000 early it would not have enough flight time to make it to its target. Note: target was in a mountainous region well above the see level and on a mountain top.

3-iii) There were multiple diversionary IAF formations coming close to Pakistan Airspace at the same time at different locations along the border.

3-iv) So PAF would have directed its CAPs(already in air) to deal with some of the 3 x IAF formations while remaining would have been dealt with using formations(on 3 min alert) that took off from nearby airbases.

3-v) PAF formations would have locked-on to intruders. This would alerted intruders as well. After locking and before you can fire you have to wait for 2 things:

3-v-a) Target comes in effective firing range. Effective range(20-60 Km) of BVR missiles is well below their max range(around 100 Km). And this varies depending on position of interceptor relative to intruder e.g. if interception is head-on or chase-mode. So as a intruder I also know this, so I can press-on a bit, then turn my tail towards interceptor and exit(and this is what happened on Feb 26).

3-v-b) Rules of engagement.

3-vi) On night of Feb 26, either both or at least 1 of the conditions was not met; BUT under time-pressure from approaching PAF interceptors IAF released payload before reaching optimal range and exited OR as DG ISPR put it pre-maturely. Now how I come to conclusion that payload was released prematurely. We know the bombs fell short of their target. Now I would not expect Israeli kit to be that unreliable that all 4 of them could not hit their target even if they were solely relying on GPS/INS. Only one thing explains this, an early release not leaving enough flight-time for them to make it to their target and what would cause IAF to make this mistake? Possibly only time-pressure from approaching interceptors.

3-vii) Pilots in the interceptors or controllers at AHQ would not have know if any payload was released or not. So it did not make sense for them to keep chasing IAF into IOK.

3-viii) It would have been later through reports from local police/army units that it would have been established that something was actually dropped.

3-ix) So it was natural to establish first what was hit (if anything) and what is extent of damage. Because this would determine what targets PAF would hit.

3-x) PAF follow-up was more than sufficient and very next day in broad day-light. For few pine trees we hit grounds/empty spaces around their military installation and shot down 2 of their fighter jets.

If you are still not satisfied; I would advise you instead of writing mere rhetoric, write something more concrete. Like what do you suggest PAF should have done instead of what it did. Discussing the technical means to do it and Indian Reaction etc.

Thank you for the post Taha. I am thanking you even though I find your post highly insulting.

1- I from the start have maintained as a honest person unlike many on this forum, I never claimed I have inside knowledge.

2- If you read the post I responded, it contains the paragraphs that the higher ranks with in PA/PAF decided not to shoot down IAF jets. I wrote in response rather than assumptions as you write.

3- If you read my posts, I have always maintained what officially revealed by DG ISPR that IAF jets intruded 4/5 kilometers in to Pakistan Airspace. You have extended it to 10 Kilometers, but it doesn't matter.

4- I have lived all my life in the West, I think I have lot of knowledge, but I still thank you for the insulting comments that I don't understand Mach speed etc. Let me tell you I understand air combats very well. Like I said I responded to what was written in the post.

5- You and I both know the interception in Air Defense comes later, first is detection through radars etc. That is done well before any jets becomes threat to Pakistani air space or to Pakistani installations. What happened to the Air Defenses in Muzaffarabad area!!

6- I know there were sorties of IAF further down south up to Gurjanwala, if my memory serves me right. Does that provides excuse of intrusion!! How we didn't have good air defenses in Muzafarabad air pocket, considering it is the Capital of AJK!!

7- I purposefully mentioned OBL raids and lollipop given to the Pakistanis at the time by PA/PAF. That incident would always be in the history to give us shame, who brought us that shame!!

Lets look at that incident. The excuse was made that Black Hawks were stealth, therefore they were not detected by radars and air defenses. When you asked what about 2 heavy Chinooks landed at Kala Dacca, were they also stealth!! no answer coming. Chinooks were at Kala Dacca for 45 minutes with their engines running, making huge noise. All the surrounding villages could hear them, some could see them too. But our PA wasn't aware of them!!

Black Hawks maximum speed is 357 km/h, Chinook have 315 km/h. The distance between Bagram and Abbottabad is 372 km. It took both sets of helicopters well over an 1 hr to reach Abbottabad. We were told the copters used mountains to avoid detection by radar, in that case it would have even taken longer lets say 1:15 minutes. Same time to fly back. Add to that 45 minutes operation time, You telling me that for almost 3 hours PAF was blind!!

Thus, my response after it was claimed that IAF was not engaged because of wider implications. As a matter of fact we have already set precedence that we are an open game for anyone, now even for India if we fear for the consequences. That's why I call it cowardice.
Happy now!!!

Let me also assure you I am a patriotic person. I am no Bilawal or Nawaz. But with the same token I have got a brain and free thinking at it.
 
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I still remember when AVM SL was retired from Airforce in order to please USA,... gurus of this forum used to preach, he is retired because he's a mental case.
AVM SL took his revenge from Americans, when jF-17 scored kills against US trained and hand picked pilots, in indo-Pak war 27-02-2019.
He was betrayed by civilian rulers, he came to talk shows and proved that he's on top of the best of the best civilian think tanks.
It's about time, that we start to hire people on merit. Today, NON of the state minister deserve to be even a tea boy, but they are deciding on how to waste billions.
Hi BATMAN betrayal wasn’t from the civilians as you can recall who was coas at that time
And most of the promotions specially airforce is directly been consulted with him now I’m not saying conspiracy but due to direct involvement of WOT in up country north and most of the direct involvement by the PAF army has to have a person directly in contact with COAS
As you can see those days videos COAS and ACM are even flying jets together
Just a thought your input will be appreciated
Now here we can think or give benefit of doubt to civilians as those days of COAS chemistry might not been mixing with shahid Latif avm
Thank you
 
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Hi BATMAN betrayal wasn’t from the civilians as you can recall who was coas at that time
And most of the promotions specially airforce is directly been consulted with him now I’m not saying conspiracy but due to direct involvement of WOT in up country north and most of the direct involvement by the PAF army has to have a person directly in contact with COAS
As you can see those days videos COAS and ACM are even flying jets together
Just a thought your input will be appreciated
Now here we can think or give benefit of doubt to civilians as those days of COAS chemistry might not been mixing with shahid Latif avm
Thank you

CoAS is not there for consultation, he takes his orders from President.
If there was no Asif Ali Zardari, AVM SL would be the air chief instead of Qamar.
Kiyani was him self on tight rope, he did his role well.
 
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Oh dont forget, he was retired not fired, as per Indians. LOL

And here we go, please stop talking as it is clear you know nothing of human history or behaviour. You dont even have surface level understanding of what Secularism encompasses or is about, instead your sprouting right wing non-sense.

What a silly response from a person, who has no understanding of the other. Do you know me!!! I happened to know a little about Secularism and Religious Freedom very well. After spending my life in London, one of the best, multicultural and multi faith cities in the world. I am trillions of miles away from right wingers. Enough said.

You really are a crackpot arent you? This was not an all out war, this was nothing but a skirmish, but this had all the potential to turn into a full scale war you maniac. India never wanted an all out war, instead wanted to feel superior, got its a$$ handed to it. Pakistan on the other not effectively thought Indians a lesson but successfully thwarted any and all Indian plans to establish a new narrative of dominance.

Do you think I should take someone like you seriously!!! Did your read my comments properly!! Go back and read again. I have discussed 26th Feb not 27th that too in the light of the person's comments. Fact is Pakistan gave Indians reason to think they can intrude in Pakistan airspace without any consequences. I said, what if there was actual death of 300+ people!!! Would Pakistanis life be scarified waiting to find the damage done by airstrikes!! You have not enlighten us with your crass comments why such failures are allowed!!
How do you know that India would not strike again, this time on many fronts and with far bigger force!! Let me tell you no less person than PM of Pakistan Imran Khan has said it that an attack from India is expected in next 30 days. If anyone can think that they can avoid wars by cowering down and inaction, risking the lives of their citizens then good luck to them and their supporters like you.
How 80000 Pakistanis lives sacrificed, care to tell us!!! Take example of the school attack in Peshawar. What Pakistan did, knowing fully well that the attackers came from Afghanistan. Trained by India and Afghanistan in the training camps run in Afghanistan.
Imagine if 80 Indians were killed in such attacks, what would be their response!!

Did we raise these issues in UN, in other international forums!!!
We didn't even raised the issue of Indian official who had confessed to conduct terrorist activities in Pakistan. Pakistan's PM Nawaz Butt, the traitor was even reluctant to utter his name let alone raised the issue of clear proofs of Indian's involvement in Pakistan.

Get through this your thick skull, Kashmir can not be resolved via War, the solution had to be via talks.
And here kicks in your bipolar disorder, please make up your mind. You seriously need to see a psychiatrist.
The only thing that is of little sense in this rant of yours is lack of English news channels to put forward Pakistan POV, instead we have seriously retarded urdu news channel which for most sound like bunch of clowns.
The rest is typical trademark nonsense from you.

I think my above comments are enough to demonstrate that who is an idiot here. Good luck with your verbosity and be blessed in your ignorance.[/QUOTE]
 
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The Eagle, just tell me please, is it OK for the Indian's IAF to bomb Pakistan inside the international borders whenever its like and IAF flown back without any retaliation on that night!! Is this the strategy that we are tolerant to the attacks and wouldn't even issue orders to our pilots to shoot down IAF fighters!!
I am told that was the policy implemented by high ups. Is this true!! If it is what happened to their resolve to protect Pakistan at all costs!!

To understand that the word "why" you must understand what happened on 27th, Feb 2019. And also, if you can't believe the officials then I have no intention to convince people otherwise. How could you believe a farcical story that IAF "Bombed" or even stayed that longer which may be called some muscle show? Read about RoE and don't take some sabre rattling as credible enough.

When I see many people as such not leading the nation; I am more thankful to Allah. IAF violated airspace and PAF did the right thing on that night. It is indeed an irony to see that where Pakistanis are proud of our retaliation few people are still stuck with Indian propaganda of that night. However, I don't mind such philosophy from people asking these questions because, there are very less that can understand the tactics & strategy or at-least considers every strategic understanding.
 
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