The real Red Flag facts...USAF briefing about IAF participation

[Munir]

part 1:

part 2:

 

[Munir]

Tumansky's are very suspectabe to FOD. So they use 1 minute spacing between them to get airborne.

If Indians have engine problem then the engines have to be send to Russia for repair.

The best senior pilots fly well against US rookies but the average cannot win from the average US pilots.

Indian mig21 Bison is top plane cause it has a good Israeli jammer and it is small while it can handle BVR. Very dangerous.

In close combat against against wingtank heavy F15 he F15 did win a lot of close combats. Even against a clean MKI.

TVC had a promblem it causes lot of drag and the big rcs MKI gets out of kinetic energy and height so it gets killed...

As long as they stay out of stall they will be able to win...

Indian during red flag did kill a lot of friends... Not able to discriminate... They were without compatible datalink...In the beginning they got killed a lot and after that they changed tactics and shot everything in the air...

PESA is bit less good compared with AESA

 

[Myth_buster_1]

very very good informative video and a eye opener for indianfanboys who bloodly claim to be the victorious of redflag lol...
btw why are the audience laughing so much?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

i just finished watching pt2 classic fanboys questions..
one guy asks what is "esa"?
the other one... is F-15 the last dogfighter in USAF?
and the last one took it bit off topic by saying "what about F-35". and the pilot shuts him up lol..

 

[blain2]

i just finished watching pt2 classic fanboys questions..
one guy asks what is "esa"?
the other one... is F-15 the last dogfighter in USAF?
and the last one took it bit off topic by saying "what about F-35". and the pilot shuts him up lol..

I believe the questions were valid. One guy asked "is the MKI radar an AESA radar?" and was told it is PESA (something that none of the US aircraft have). The second question had more to do with what the ongoing debate within the USAF is, whether F/A-22 is a worthy successor to the F-15 as a dogfighter.

The point of these videos is exactly the fact that there is no boasting to be done out there specially when you are going to get schooled.
What is interesting is that even in the face of the newer Russian hardware, the F-15s and F-16s are still very potent platforms. The funniest point was about the IAF deploying the TVC against the F-15/16s and getting killed and then not wanting to do a whole lot of 1 vs 1. (in contrast to wanting to do 1v1 all the time in CI).

I think the Indian fans have this perception that the MKI is the end of it all in aviation (bar the Raptor) and the Viper/Eagle cannot even compete (you see this perception at multiple Indian sites as well as blogs). The reality is quite different. Even during CI05, the USAF rookies out of Japan had a 50% success against the MKI flying the Viper.

On the plus side, the IAF followed the rules well and were extremely professional (which is expected) and I am sure they learned a lot. They probably were not able to get the most out of the exercise due to self-imposed restrictions on the use of the radar and incompatibility with the DL (Link 16 vs. Russian solution). Also as they learn the employ the MKI better, their success against aircraft like the F-15/16 will also go up.

 

[Munir]

I remember telling years ago that the mki is a bg rcs, big visual and tvc makes kinetic energy gone like vapour.... Not bad for non military pilot....

 

[p2prada]

If Indians have engine problem then the engines have to be send to Russia for repair.

Yeah!! So does any country that doesnot produce engines on their own. Even China.

The best senior pilots fly well against US rookies but the average cannot win from the average US pilots.

This is a one off situation. But i had pointed out before that the pilots in the Su-30MKI are rookies just out of training.

Indian mig21 Bison is top plane cause it has a good Israeli jammer and it is small while it can handle BVR. Very dangerous.

He actually says, the Mig-21 is our most potent fighter, capable of electronic stealth. Nice. Mig 21 gets first look first kill capability.

TVC had a promblem it causes lot of drag and the big rcs MKI gets out of kinetic energy and height so it gets killed...

As long as they stay out of stall they will be able to win...

looks like thats how the scenario was.

Indian during red flag did kill a lot of friends... Not able to discriminate... They were without compatible datalink...

The truth is certain bands of radar are used to determine whether friend or foe. But most bands on the radar were switched off according to indian and russian specifications during US exercises. It was as though the MKIs were actually flying without radars.

The US pilot points out that we were not able to distinguish an aircraft as friend or foe at a distance of 20 odd miles, which means the MKI radars were practically switched off and also that there was no proper radio contact between the friendlies with the MKI. Then there is obviously the issue of data link between the AWACS, the friendlies and the MKI which will never be compatible for ever and ever for obvious reasons.

In the beginning they got killed a lot and after that they changed tactics and shot everything in the air...

It looks like we were Blind the entire time.

All in all the exercises were good. Lets see what happens next year.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

first of all, the americans decided not to use TVC until their technology had matured a bit more. hence, it was used only on the F/A-22 raptor.

second, there's a reason why India wants the MRCA. certainly they wouldn't be paying that much money just to replace their MiG's.

 

[p2prada]

Even during CI05, the USAF rookies out of Japan had a 50% success against the MKI flying the Viper.

You failed to add the AWACS into the picture too. Everytime there is an Indo-US exercise, there is always an american AWACs being used. The AWACs are not entirely compatible with the MKI. These differences actually pushes the favour to the americans.

In case there was a russian and indian exercise, with no restrictions and also incorporating russian AWACS. Then the situation would be completely different.

The only exercises we have had till now mainly involved dog fights in india except for the Malabar exercises.

The red flag exercises added multiple scenarios, but none of the trump cards that the MKI has can actually be used either due to self imposed restrictions or even compatibility issues. Even the BVR capability of the MKI would have utilized an American AWACs for lock on rather then the MKIs BARS. These things make a difference.

At the same time if you compare a US pak exercise, these same issues wouldn't plague the pakistanis.

 

[vish]

The link will direct you to a very informative discussion on the videos posted by Munir:

F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

 

[Munir]

The link will direct you to a very informative discussion on the videos posted by Munir:

F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

Keymag was once a decent forum but after the Indian coup it has turned into a basic onesided forum that has zero link to the Airforcesmonthly...

Unfortunately the Indian posters there focus on the fact that MKI has no Tumansky... Well, I know plenty of fighterpilots and most of them know a lot less then me about the plane they fly... So if they already know the difference between a mig and a flanker then they are smarter then the average...

I am glad that on this forum there is a bit more focus on both sides. MKI is a superb plane and like others it has its weakness... I agree that Bison is a ugly plane to fight against but since it has hardly impressive range you can beat that. But the Flanker is a big door in the sky. Agile and well armed but still a big door and doors do have problems if they have no speed.

I think that the f15 pilot talks a bit arrogant but the fact is that you cannot beat F16 block52 with two hands down if you fly the mki... The pilot does make a lot of difference. So I think you can put that in PAF/IAF scenario. The Bison and the PG have some advantages when they can close in. And f16 and flanker have a tough battle ahead. Certainly if both have AWACS.

And I think we should not underestimate JF17 and J10 now...

 

[Munir]

>>Yeah!! So does any country that doesnot produce engines on their own. Even China.

Same goed for PAF... And a lot of other nations. But most of them do minor and major maintenance. Do you think that PAF sends its PW to US? I remember that US pilots were furious when they found out that PAF planes flying to USA had outdated main ignitor... For PAF they do maintain fully the Snecma's, PW and others in service... What does India do?

Let us not drag China into this. They even copied RD33 and MKK engine... The time we will see it is som eyears later but I do not think they send their engines to anywhere... They even copied entire flanker and are busy with every part to improve. Compare hat with MKI which has indeed nice parts but hardly Indian.

>>>This is a one off situation. But i had pointed out before that the pilots in the Su-30MKI are rookies just out of training.

So the best IAF pilots won CI against rookie USAF and now the average Indian lost againt average USAF? There were not all rookies. Just look at pics on BRF...


>>>He actually says, the Mig-21 is our most potent fighter, capable of electronic stealth. Nice. Mig 21 gets first look first kill capability.

Well, and shortlegged.... NO ifr, not a terrible good radar and not a lot of BVR. So after it shoots (if it gets a chance) then it will have to face the same faith as the M262...


>>>The truth is certain bands of radar are used to determine whether friend or foe. But most bands on the radar were switched off according to indian and russian specifications during US exercises. It was as though the MKIs were actually flying without radars.

I think it is not the IAF problem. They had less info and then you need to do something. I like the idea of shooting first if you have no clue and points do count. But if AWACS tells you that there are no boogies then you cannot communicate if you still act. Well, I remember the shooting of the Atlantique...

>>>The US pilot points out that we were not able to distinguish an aircraft as friend or foe at a distance of 20 odd miles, which means the MKI radars were practically switched off and also that there was no proper radio contact between the friendlies with the MKI. Then there is obviously the issue of data link between the AWACS, the friendlies and the MKI which will never be compatible for ever and ever for obvious reasons.

If radar was on then they were a flashlight in the dark...


>>>It looks like we were Blind the entire time.

Based on what? They had awacs... But voice only.

>>>All in all the exercises were good. Lets see what happens next year.

Every excercise adds knowledge. But it does show that we do not have to listen to Indian journalist anymore.

 

[p2prada]

Same goed for PAF... And a lot of other nations. But most of them do minor and major maintenance. Do you think that PAF sends its PW to US? I remember that US pilots were furious when they found out that PAF planes flying to USA had outdated main ignitor... For PAF they do maintain fully the Snecma's, PW and others in service... What does India do?

India to License-build MiG-29 Engines

Russia Sells to India License for Engine Assembly - Kommersant Moscow
HAL needs the license first to master assembly of basic RD-33 and then to proceed to its upgraded specifications with the movable trust vectors and to RD-33MK installed on the seaborne MiG-29. From 2007 to 2009, Russia will deliver MiG-29s for Vikramaaditya (former Admiral Gorshkov) aircraft carrier.

I hope this answers your question.

Let us not drag China into this. They even copied RD33 and MKK engine... The time we will see it is som eyears later but I do not think they send their engines to anywhere... They even copied entire flanker and are busy with every part to improve. Compare hat with MKI which has indeed nice parts but hardly Indian.

Does copying matter in this particular discusion, since we are gonna liscense build the RD33 in india. Anyways we are talking about the TVC controls. Do u think china has technology ready to maintain the AL-31FPs which india has. One more thing, china has not been able to copy the AL-31F engines properly. Their copies are still not airworthy. They still rely on the russians for the Al-31F engines.

So the best IAF pilots won CI against rookie USAF and now the average Indian lost againt average USAF? There were not all rookies. Just look at pics on BRF...

Look I am not taking about the red flag exercises. I am talking about our overall fleet which will consist of young pilots in the MKIs with experienced navigators. Just like the Ground sniper teams in the US.

The US pilot pointed it out in the video too, the MKI is a NEW plane. It will take time to learn it. the vipers that came to india in 2006 had to face the newest plane in our inventory. When the vipers came, the MKI was 2 years old. Do u expect the top guns in our airforce to master the MKI and fight without datalink in such a short time. Even in 2004, the 2 Su-30K used were brand new. Dont tell me any airforce in the world can actually do it so quickly.

Anyways 2 years would mean around 600 flying hours, not to mention the number of training sorties and lets also include the TESTING sorties.
So, all our top guns had just 600 hours(not even a realistic number) of flying time in a very difficult aircraft and were still able to win 50% of the engagements with an enemy which has the best viper squadrons on he planet along with capable AWACS support.

Well, and shortlegged.... NO ifr, not a terrible good radar and not a lot of BVR. So after it shoots (if it gets a chance) then it will have to face the same faith as the M262...

What do u mean "if it gets a chance???" The US pilot clearly says that the Mig-21 was clearly "invisible" UNTIL it fired a active homing missile. Or did you just miss that part???? Then he cracks a joke about the F-15 avoiding the missile and chasing the bison afterwards.

I think it is not the IAF problem. They had less info and then you need to do something. I like the idea of shooting first if you have no clue and points do count.

Shooting what?? The Pilot says the MKI shot friendlies, fratricide doesnot give points but vice versa. This is clearly lack of info due to technological INCOMPATIBILITY.

But if AWACS tells you that there are no boogies then you cannot communicate if you still act.

er!! Can u elaborate. I dont get what you are trying to say with the last part.

Well, I remember the shooting of the Atlantique...

Lets not bring up conspiracy theories here plz. We say u crossed, u say u did not. Nothing else left to say here.

If radar was on then they were a flashlight in the dark...

The other aircraft had their radars OFF. We had our radars OFF. Cool!!
But, the other aircrafts had video and other information passed on to them from AWACs through the LINK 16. But we did not. The MKIs were clearly sitting in the dark the entire time.

Based on what? They had awacs... But voice only.

AWACS with voice support wah!!!!!! Talk about EYE IN THE SKY. But you are just content with EARS IN THE SKY.

So, the F-15s are happily painting us with direct downloads from AWACS while we are just groping about in the dark listening to some US AWACS crew shouting in our ears. LOL!!!!

All we can do is shoot with guns, that is considering we dont get shot by BVR in the first place.

The best part is we wont have any idea that we got shot too. The AWACS crew has to tell us if we survived or not.

Every excercise adds knowledge. But it does show that we do not have to listen to Indian journalist anymore.

Indian, Pakistani or American journalist. Does it matter. All say only one half of the picture. How about mixing all the 3 and then coming to a meaningful conclusion.

 

[p2prada]

I think that the f15 pilot talks a bit arrogant but the fact is that you cannot beat F16 block52 with two hands down if you fly the mki...

True, he also mentions that the F-22 was beaten the same way as the MKI by a F-16. They only found a way to counter MKIs TVC in a dog fight and not in BVR with the entire spectrum of the BARS on your behind.

And I think we should not underestimate JF17 and J10 now...

Lets add LCA to the list too.

 

[z9-ec]

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