The Muslim World | Medusa's Wreck!

[Armstrong]

Actually, according to kalu_miah's theories, it's the other way around.

Our policy is "China's peaceful rise", so we will only be going to war if someone attacks us. And honestly, I do not envy the one who wants to try it.

Wait...what are you saying - We'd go to war with China ?

But that is absurd; Pakistan may not command the influence that it once did in the Muslim World but we sure as hell have influence enough to tell any Muslim Country to leave China alone - After all it was Pakistan that introduced China not only to the Western world but the Muslim world when China was pretty much cut-off !

Besides how the heck would any Muslim Country propose to by-pass Pakistan & fight China - We can't be wished away just because the geography is inconvenient !

And why would any Muslim Country have any beef with China to begin with ? What has China done to us ?

 

[RealityRa]

There is no such thing as the "Muslim World". Its simply a term used by less significant Muslim nations to claim the achievements of more powerful Muslim nations. In fact no one has yet seen this "Muslim World" in action?

 

[Dillinger]

Wait...what are you saying - We'd go to war with China ?

But that is absurd; Pakistan may not command the influence that it once did in the Muslim World but we sure as hell have influence enough to tell any Muslim Country to leave China alone - After all it was Pakistan that introduced China not only to the Western world but the Muslim world when China was pretty much cut-off !

Besides how the heck would any Muslim Country propose to by-pass Pakistan & fight China - We can't be wished away just because the geography is inconvenient !

And why would any Muslim Country have any beef with China to begin with ? What has China done to us ?

You haven't factored in the loads of lunatics in your nation (other than the TTP) who are eager to take commands from a higher power (not Pakistan) and strike against anyone deemed a potential threat by said power. Are you honestly asserting that you're current ruling dispensation can keep the loons in check, after all when it comes to authority they look westward towards the Nejd and not towards Islamabad OR Rawalpindi for that matter. Just recently a state appointed head of one of the largest mosques in China was killed by extremists, who do you think is pulling the strings.

Besides, this is not the 70s or the 80s, China today has more influence in the middle east and Africa than India and Pakistan combined, money makes people dance, and the Chinese have more of everything than us lot at the moment.

 

[Armstrong]

You haven't factored in the loads of lunatics in your nation (other than the TTP) who are eager to take commands from a higher power (not Pakistan) and strike against anyone deemed a potential threat by said power. Are you honestly asserting that you're current ruling dispensation can keep the loons in check, after all when it comes to authority they look westward towards the Nejd and not towards Islamabad OR Rawalpindi for that matter. Just recently a state appointed head of one of the largest mosques in China was killed by extremists, who do you think is pulling the strings.

Besides, this is not the 70s or the 80s, China today has more influence in the middle east and Africa than India and Pakistan combined, money makes people dance, and the Chinese have more of everything than us lot at the moment.

Why would we need to use our influence to that end ? KSA listens to us on everything but Iran !

And because neither KSA nor Iran have any beef with China & because Pakistan already has a fair bit of influence with the Saudis - I don't see any trouble !

What other 'loads' of lunatics are there in Pakistan except the TTP capable of doing anything more than RSS-esque protests ?

 

[Dillinger]

Why would we need to use our influence to that end ? KSA listens to us on everything but Iran !

And because neither KSA nor Iran have any beef with China & because Pakistan already has a fair bit of influence with the Saudis - I don't see any trouble !

What other 'loads' of lunatics are there in Pakistan except the TTP capable of doing anything more than RSS-esque protests ?

Lol, Buttsy, please.

KSA listens to you? KSA talks to you, in case you haven't noticed Nawaze seems always ready to run off to take shelter with Al Saud.

Have you forgotten the protest that your agencies lodged when KSA decided to deport the IM terrorist to India (read up on that) or when KSA was signing a security cooperation deal with us?

KSA listens to ONLY ONE nation on this planet, and for good reason.

Which loons, try almost all the nutcases hiding in the woodwork. Both Iran and KSA have spent quite some time breeding their own share of possible proxies in your territory, LEJ/Sipah-e-sahiba ring any bells?

 

[Armstrong]

Lol, Buttsy, please.

KSA listens to you? KSA talks to you, in case you haven't noticed Nawaze seems always ready to run off to take shelter with Al Saud half the time.

Have you forgotten the protest that your agencies lodged when KSA decided to deport the IM terrorist to India (read up on that) or when KSA was signing a security cooperation deal with us?

KSA listens to ONLY ONE nation on this planet, and for good reason.

Nawaz was housed by the Royal Family for a long time there...naturally hes got relations with them - Whether he runs away or not is something that I'm not privy !

I am not privy of any protests made by Pakistan to KSA over deporting the IM terrorist to India - I'm sure you can provide me some evidence for that....evidence beyond 'unnamed sources' being quoted in the media because the amount of BS attributed to these unnamed sources is astounding !

All I know is that we've got intense military-to-military cooperation with KSA going back many decades whereas there is nothing to be heard of whatever security deal you signed with them !

Which loons, try almost all the nutcases hiding in the woodwork. Both Iran and KSA have spent quite some time breeding their own share of possible proxies in your territory, LEJ/Sipah-e-sahiba ring any bells?

Hence my contention - Both Iran & KSA have nothing against China !

Any other ones hiding in the woodwork ?

 

[Dillinger]

Nawaz was housed by the Royal Family for a long time there...naturally hes got relations with them - Whether he runs away or not is something that I'm not privy !

I am not privy of any protests made by Pakistan to KSA over deporting the IM terrorist to India - I'm sure you can provide me some evidence for that....evidence beyond 'unnamed sources' being quoted in the media because the amount of BS attributed to these unnamed sources is astounding !

All I know is that we've got intense military-to-military cooperation with KSA going back many decades whereas there is nothing to be heard of whatever security deal you signed with them !



Hence my contention - Both Iran & KSA have nothing against China !

Any other ones hiding in the woodwork ?

They have nothing against China YET (although the Muricans have plenty and can always bring KSA in), do you assume that interests are static? The fact is that there are armed organisations within Pakistan that do not consider Pakistan itself to be on the top in the chain of command, thereby diluting the state's authority and monopoly over the use of organized and large scale violence, which means that IF the day comes when their handlers wish to deploy them against China you will not be able to stop them short of fighting them. After all Pakistani territory has already been used by non state actors who have attacked China (check that up too), AND that can always happen again.

Of course, any news or reportage which does not fit your POV will not suffice, hint Buttsy, rarely do reporters reveal their sources, its called access journalism, the whole point is to keep sources private or lose them.

KSA's operations are far more balanced in the subcontinent. Your military relations are not one way, nor do they earn you influence, its you engaging in quid pro quo for the subsidized fuel (ya look that up, or do you think you're buying all that oil at market price, the piggy bank ain't that large).

Its delusional to believe that the Saudis "listen" to you on all matters except Iran, are you suggesting that they operate on your direction?

Here, this is a small and succinct insight into what's going on.

Saudi Arabia’s New Strategic Game in South Asia | The National Interest

 

[Armstrong]

They have nothing YET, do you assume that interests are static?

Of course not - Do you assume that after suffering the wave of sectarian attacks the lot of us have - We'd remain static ?

And besides why would they go against China ? Where else do they propose to get whatever missiles they want ? Who else are they going to sell the oil to ? Why would they put Pakistan in a position such as that where they know as well as us that we won't pick KSA over China ! Why would they aim to isolate themselves when they know that the entire Muslim world has a positive view of China including their Iranian rivals ?

Anything is possible but I don't think that arguments ought to be made centered around remote probabilities !

Of course, any news or reportage which does not fit your POV will not suffice, hint Buttsy, rarely do reporters reveal their sources, its called access journalism, the whole point is to keep sources private or lose them.

No I was just wary of this kind of 'access journalism' that led to the Invasion of Iraq where 10 years down the lane not even a bloody firecracker could be found !

Plus I've had the good fortune of reading Chomsky's Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda & Propaganda and the Public Mind - So I usually require evidence before I believe these convenient nuggets of information that fit perfectly well in dishing dirt at the country one wants to dish dirt at to each whatever one wishes to achieve in one's own strategic calculus viz a vie perception management !

KSA's operations are far more balanced in the subcontinent. Your military relations are not one way, nor do they earn you influence, its you engaging in quid pro quo for the subsidized fuel (ya look that up, or do you think you're buying all that oil at market price, the piggy bank ain't that large).

There is no subsidized fuel flowing from KSA to Pakistan - I heard much about it but I've yet to see a shred of evidence to substantiate that; not in any serious policy paper, economic survey of Pakistan (annual) or in any serious research findings have I found anything substantive to believe that !

What we had, probably, were deferred oil payments at the time we exploded our nukes !

Other than that yes we do enjoy a strategic relation with KSA as evidenced by our close military & civil relations !

And if they're helping us to fill up the 'piggy bank' then there must be something to ascertain what the quid-pro-quo is from our side ? They gave us a billion & a half a few months ago & there was talk buzzing in the air that in return we're doing everything from sending divisions to KSA to sending weapons to Syria - Everyone from the military to the civilian leadership has rubbished those claims & I've yet to see an ounce of contradictory evidence been brought forth to substantiate that they've been lying !

Its delusional to believe that the Saudis "listen" to you on all matters except Iran, are you suggesting that they operate on your direction?

Here, this is a small and succinct insight into what's going on.

Saudi Arabia’s New Strategic Game in South Asia | The National Interest

This is an Opinion piece - Not evidence; an Opinion may be spot-on or absolute rubbish !

 

[Dillinger]

Of course not - Do you assume that after suffering the wave of sectarian attacks the lot of us have - We'd remain static ?

And besides why would they go against China ? Where else do they propose to get whatever missiles they want ? Who else are they going to sell the oil to ? Why would they put Pakistan in a position such as that where they know as well as us that we won't pick KSA over China ! Why would they aim to isolate themselves when they know that the entire Muslim world has a positive view of China including their Iranian rivals ?

Anything is possible but I don't think that arguments ought to be made centered around remote probabilities !



No I was just wary of this kind of 'access journalism' that led to the Invasion of Iraq where 10 years down the lane not even a bloody firecracker could be found !

Plus I've had the good fortune of reading Chomsky's Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda & Propaganda and the Public Mind - So I usually require evidence before I believe these convenient nuggets of information that fit perfectly well in dishing dirt at the country one wants to dish dirt at to each whatever one wishes to achieve in one's own strategic calculus viz a vie perception management !



There is no subsidized fuel flowing from KSA to Pakistan - I heard much about it but I've yet to see a shred of evidence to substantiate that; not in any serious policy paper, economic survey of Pakistan (annual) or in any serious research findings have I found anything substantive to believe that !

What we had, probably, were deferred oil payments at the time we exploded our nukes !

Other than that yes we do enjoy a strategic relation with KSA as evidenced by our close military & civil relations !

And if they're helping us to fill up the 'piggy bank' then there must be something to ascertain what the quid-pro-quo is from our side ? They gave us a billion & a half a few months ago & there was talk buzzing in the air that in return we're doing everything from sending divisions to KSA to sending weapons to Syria - Everyone from the military to the civilian leadership has rubbished those claims & I've yet to see an ounce of contradictory evidence been brought forth to substantiate that they've been lying !

Like your opinion is "spot on"?

Your posts posit that you can somehow decide KSA's policy for it, that is what it means to state "that they listen to us".

Can you deny the fact that them even engaging with us falls contrary to that assertion? After all, IF Pakistan had actual influence that is the first thing they would ensure, that KSA wouldn't even be sitting at the same table with us, not with the ever loving Kashmir issue still hanging fire. So let me ask again, IF you have such control, why are they EVEN TALKING TO US? Why are they deporting IM and LeT terrorists (and that's not an opinion piece) to India? Surely anyone, even non state actors "who have nothing to do with the state of Pakistan" should not be deported to India at least, specially when they are fighting for Kashmir, that should be a matter of principle.

You have suggested, that you have leverage over KSA, so prove it, and no articles with unsubstantiated sources, no opinions?

Furthermore, IF you do have such leverage then why can't you get them to stop engineering proxies on your soil? After all your "intense cooperation" has existed for decades, so WHY DID THE PROXIES POP UP IN THE FIRST PLACE? What, did Pakistan forget to use its "influence"? Man, the Hazaaras who ended up dead in their hundreds in those twin blasts at the hands of the LeJ are gonna be so pissed sitting up in heaven!

Please, the only thing you have to offer is soldiers as mercenaries, ex intelligence heads as consultants or officials and nukes for black market trade, short of this you have neither the economic clout nor the regional great power status to have "clout".

 

[Armstrong]

Like your opinion is "spot on"?

I never claimed as such !

Your posts posit that you can somehow decide KSA's policy for it, that is what it means to state "that they listen to us".

No it doesn't; all it means is that Pakistan & KSA have strong relations with each other & that we consult each other on matters of mutual importance.

KSA knows that there is much to be had with a partnership with China & Pakistan encourages that way !

It does not, however, means that we tell them what to do or vice versa !

Can you deny the fact that them even engaging with us falls contrary to that assertion? After all, IF Pakistan had actual influence that is the first thing they would ensure, that KSA wouldn't even be sitting at the same table with us, not with the ever loving Kashmir issue still hanging fire. So let me ask again, IF you have such control, why are they EVEN TALKING TO US? Why are they deporting IM and LeT terrorists (and that's not an opinion piece) to India? Surely anyone, even non state actors "who have nothing to do with the state of Pakistan" should not be deported to India at least, specially when they are fighting for Kashmir, that should be a matter of principle.

No it does not - We haven't asked KSA or any other country from the Muslim World to break-off relations with India or anything of the sort; especially now that we're trying to mend our relations as well !

So far as deporting of IM & LeT terrorists are concerned - They're Indian citizens....have them !

India hasn't bothered to given a shred of evidence in the past to substantiate any of her claims & I don't presume that India would change her policy now - So whether he someone is or isn't in Indian custody is pretty much irrelevant because Pakistan is going to be demonized endlessly using 'secret intelligence reports' or 'unnamed sources from the intelligence community' anyhow !

You have suggested, that you have leverage over KSA, so prove it, and no articles with unsubstantiated sources, no opinions?

I didn't say that we've got leverage over KSA....I said we've got a strategic relationship with them !

If we didn't they wouldn't have offered us oil on deferred payments after the nuclear explosions or given extensive humanitarian aid to Pakistan in developing schools, hospitals & infrastructures nor would they have handed us over $1.5 billion to stabilize our FOREX reserve a few months ago !

Barring cryptic talk of 'Nukes being sold to KSA' or 'Divisions of the Pakistani Army moving to KSA' - None of which has been substantiated by an iota's worth of evidence - I don't know what they asked for in return !

Furthermore, IF you do have such leverage then why can't you get them to stop engineering proxies on your soil? After all your "intense cooperation" has existed for decades, so WHY DID THE PROXIES POP UP IN THE FIRST PLACE? What, did Pakistan forget to use its "influence"? Man, the Hazaaras who ended up dead in their hundreds in those twin blasts at the hands of the LeJ are gonna be so pissed sitting up in heaven!

Because the proxies aren't being engineered by the Saudi Government otherwise our cooperation would've ended a long time ago - Even you can't be so cynical so as to assume that the Pakistani Military would be training Saudi Military & going on secondments to Saudi Arabia on one hand while fighting Saudi sponsored terrorists in Pakistan & be okay with it !

This money is coming through donations not only through Saudi Arabia but all over & including donations being made in Pakistan & not always or even usually one knows where the 'donations' end up going - For example I'm sure not all of those pious looking individuals who collect animal hides every Eid are using the proceeds from those for pious reasons !

It ought to be dealt with but thats the nature of the Counter-Terrorism in an Inefficient System of Governance - It takes time !

Please, the only thing you have to offer is soldiers as mercenaries, ex intelligence heads as consultants or officials and nukes for black market trade, short of this you have neither the economic clout nor the regional great power status to have "clout".

I don't know what soldiers we offered as mercs because I haven't heard of any !

I don't know what ex-intelligence chief we offered as consultants or officials - I think the last one went in to head UAE's Intelligence Agency - I kinda like that....a Merc doesn't get to know your intimate intel secrets unless your relationship with his country is of a strategic nature.

And besides if sending ex-military people as consultants, diplomats/officials is a sign of mercenary servitude than I suppose we must be serving the Sri Lankans too when we sent in our ex-PAF guy (AVM Shahzad Chaudhy I think) to, allegedly, consult their Airforce !

And so far as the nukes on the black-market are concerned - I just wish I had a penny for every one of these articles popping up in Washington Post or some similar newspaper - Its a bloody Nuke....not a Cake that can be bought & sold like that !

 

[Dillinger]

I never claimed as such !



No it doesn't; all it means is that Pakistan & KSA have strong relations with each other & that we consult each other on matters of mutual importance.

KSA knows that there is much to be had with a partnership with China & Pakistan encourages that way !

It does not, however, means that we tell them what to do or vice versa !



No it does not - We haven't asked KSA or any other country from the Muslim World to break-off relations with India or anything of the sort; especially now that we're trying to mend our relations as well !

So far as deporting of IM & LeT terrorists are concerned - They're Indian citizens....have them !

India hasn't bothered to given a shred of evidence in the past to substantiate any of her claims & I don't presume that India would change her policy now - So whether he someone is or isn't in Indian custody is pretty much irrelevant because Pakistan is going to be demonized endlessly using 'secret intelligence reports' or 'unnamed sources from the intelligence community' anyhow !



I didn't say that we've got leverage over KSA....I said we've got a strategic relationship with them !

If we didn't they wouldn't have offered us oil on deferred payments after the nuclear explosions or given extensive humanitarian aid to Pakistan in developing schools, hospitals & infrastructures nor would they have handed us over $1.5 billion to stabilize our FOREX reserve a few months ago !

Barring cryptic talk of 'Nukes being sold to KSA' or 'Divisions of the Pakistani Army moving to KSA' - None of which has been substantiated by an iota's worth of evidence - I don't know what they asked for in return !



Because the proxies aren't being engineered by the Saudi Government otherwise our cooperation would've ended a long time ago - Even you can't be so cynical so as to assume that the Pakistani Military would be training Saudi Military & going on secondments to Saudi Arabia on one hand while fighting Saudi sponsored terrorists in Pakistan & be okay with it !

This money is coming through donations not only through Saudi Arabia but all over & including donations being made in Pakistan & not always or even usually one knows where the 'donations' end up going - For example I'm sure not all of those pious looking individuals who collect animal hides every Eid are using the proceeds from those for pious reasons !

It ought to be dealt with but thats the nature of the Counter-Terrorism in an Inefficient System of Governance - It takes time !



I don't know what soldiers we offered as mercs because I haven't heard of any !

I don't know what ex-intelligence chief we offered as consultants or officials - I think the last one went in to head UAE's Intelligence Agency - I kinda like that....a Merc doesn't get to know your intimate intel secrets unless your relationship with his country is of a strategic nature.

And besides if sending ex-military people as consultants, diplomats/officials is a sign of mercenary servitude than I suppose we must be serving the Sri Lankans too when we sent in our ex-PAF guy (AVM Shahzad Chaudhy I think) to, allegedly, consult their Airforce !

And so far as the nukes on the black-market are concerned - I just wish I had a penny for every one of these articles popping up in Washington Post or some similar newspaper - Its a bloody Nuke....not a Cake that can be bought & sold like that !

I see, so "they listen to us" posits a "mutual relationship", I didn't know that you get to talk at or down to a mutual partner.

And the proxies have nothing to do with KSA's government, how convenient, of course the fact that KSA has done nothing to stop the "free radicals" sitting on their soil who have raised said proxies is also not their fault.

And of course, if the Washington Post and a host of other newspapers print reportage on your rogue nuclear agents then that's just biased, everyone's out to get Pakistan, the jews and sundry. Come off it!

As I said, almost anything that doesn't fit your POV gets relegated to the "less than truthful" or "hearsay" category.

 

[Armstrong]

I see, so "they listen to us" posits a "mutual relationship", I didn't know that you get to talk at or down to a mutual partner.

I never said that one gets to talk down to them or them to us !

And the proxies have nothing to do with KSA's government, how convenient, of course the fact that KSA has done nothing to stop the "free radicals" sitting on their soil who have raised said proxies is also not their fault.

I don't know of any 'free-radicals' sitting on their soil - If they had the Shia provinces of KSA would've been their first targets - I don't believe I've heard anything of the sort & its not as if a 'radical' listens to you about this sort of stuff because then he wouldn't be a 'radical' & I'm not sure that a 'radical' supported by a Government would make the Government any less 'radical' & hence considerate enough to its own populace that it considers as being 'expendable' !

And of course, if the Washington Post and a host of other newspapers print reportage on your rogue nuclear agents then that's just biased, everyone's out to get Pakistan, the jews and sundry. Come off it!

As I said, almost anything that doesn't fit your POV gets relegated to the "less than truthful" or "hearsay" category.

No need to have a hissy fit - I'm only asking for 'evidence'....not much ! Besides haven't their credibility been remotely in question after the Iraq-Invasion-Fiasco & the role that 'access journalism', as you called it, played in it ? Surely every time one asks for 'proof' shouldn't elicit such a response that 'all & sundry are out to get Pakistan' thats why you don't believe them !

Anything that is devoid of an evidentiary basis is by its very nature 'hearsay' - I thought that was common knowledge !

 

[Dillinger]

I never said that one gets to talk down to them or them to us !



I don't know of any 'free-radicals' sitting on their soil - If they had the Shia provinces of KSA would've been their first targets - I don't believe I've heard anything of the sort & its not as if a 'radical' listens to you about this sort of stuff because then he wouldn't be a 'radical' & I'm not sure that a 'radical' supported by a Government would make the Government any less 'radical' & hence considerate enough to its own populace that it considers as being 'expendable' !



No need to have a hissy fit - I'm only asking for 'evidence'....not much !

Anything that is devoid of an evidentiary basis is by its very nature 'hearsay' - I thought that was common knowledge !

Yes, evidence from intelligence agencies, are you really going down that path.

No one's having a hissy fit, its the monochromatic and myopic world view you seem to put out despite your clear intellect. Everything must fit into your narrative.

Lets not conflate informed opinion, which happens to hold more weight than the Pakistani narrative in world capitals (or do you deny that too, the stellar reputation that Pakistan has), with simple hearsay.

 

[Armstrong]

Yes, evidence from intelligence agencies, are you really going down that path.

If we've been up to all that we've been accused off surely there must something....anything.....that has been collected over the years that can be shared with the International Court of Justice & yet nothing - Not a single shred of evidence that can be shared ?

Besides what is the alternative - We should believe it anyhow because the 'unnamed intelligence sources' said so - Not even after Iraq ?

And I'm the one accused of monochromatism ?

No one's having a hissy fit, its the monochromatic and myopic world view you seem to put out despite your clear intellect. Everything must fit into your narrative.

Asking for even a 'shred of evidence' is not a myopic world view.....believing what ones wants to believe just because it conforms to one's preconceived notions of what ought to be - Is !

Lets not conflate informed opinion, which happens to hold more weight than the Pakistani narrative in world capitals (or do you deny that too, the stellar reputation that Pakistan has), with simple hearsay.

I confess Pakistan has never been good at counter-propaganda but one doesn't need to look beyond a couple of Chomsky's or Scheur's books to know the truth about the so-called 'informed' opinion coming out of world capitals - Its the oldest trick in the book 'demonize the other' to create an 'us' vs 'them' - First it was the Soviets then the Chinese & the rest of us from Iran to Nicaragua including Pakistan are just somewhere in the middle of all of that !

That said, I didn't know that 'frequency of opinions' coming out of world-capitals determines the merit or demerit of an argument or an accusation - I was under the erroneous impression that whereas fickle minded as we are it may serve to alter or construct our perception of anything it does not however have the force of 'evidence' or maybe I should concede then - Because a 100 people are saying it....it must be true perhaps academics, international law or even informed opinion, as you call it, are a democratic ideal not an empirical one !

 

[waz]

Pakistanis obsessing over the "Muslim world", whilst our own country withers away. You couldn't make it up.....We need to address our priorities here.