The Muslim World | Medusa's Wreck!

[Chinese-Dragon]

I keep repeating this - you can't equate religion with race or nation identity of being Chinese. Islam is based on 1500 year old religion and its tenants. Tenants of which are not feasible sound economic policy if the goal is to achieve economic power. And for them to unity means one religion and following its tenets first.

Islam is their primary identity, just like being Chinese is mine.

Chinese civilization is thousands of years old, doesn't mean I have to follow what was written thousands of years ago, instead of using reason and logic, based on the practicalities of living in a modern world.

Confucius said a lot of clever things, however he was also wrong on many things too. We can reform and adapt his ideas to suit a more modern era, and that's exactly what we have done.

If Islam can adapt itself to the practicalities of the modern world, I see no reason why they cannot form a stronger link based on a shared common identity. The only question is, how strong is the link of the common identity?

 

[MadeintheUSA]

Islam is their primary identity, just like being Chinese is mine.

Chinese civilization is thousands of years old, doesn't mean I have to follow what was written thousands of years ago, instead of using reason and logic, based on the practicalities of living in a modern world.

Confucius said a lot of clever things, however he was also wrong on many things too. We can reform and adapt his ideas to suit a more modern era, and that's exactly what we have done.

If Islam can adapt itself to the practicalities of the modern world, I see no reason why they cannot form a stronger link based on a shared common identity. The only question is, how strong is the link of the common identity?

See what I highlighted, that does not exist in Islam. You have to follow the rules written 1500 years ago. There is no adapting to the modern world and when that happens to take place among them, you are seeing the kind of revolt and ' jihad' that raises its head up.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

See what I highlighted, that does not exist in Islam. You have to follow the rules written 1500 years ago. There is no adapting to the modern world and when that happens to take place among them, you are seeing the kind of revolt and ' jihad' that raises its head up.

Everyone has the potential to adapt, to reform, and to improve themselves.

Sure, it looks unlikely now, given the chaos of the Middle East, but it's a good thing to work towards.

 

[kalu_miah]

@Chinese-Dragon I think you are being unfair to my theories. I did not say that China and the Muslim world are in a collision course. I believe there are only two entities and groups that are on a collision course with the Muslim world in the long term future:
1. India
2. Zionists

The more China gets closer to these two entities, the more the Muslim world will become distant from China, in my opinion. I believe inclusion in BRICS provides India that opportunity to make this happen, at least in the medium term. So this direction will make it look like China is moving away from the Muslim world and when that happens, Muslim world may, just as a reaction, be forced to lean towards the West, simply because there is no one else to turn to, provided that Zionist control of the US is reduced to a manageable level, which is also highly unlikely, a point I rather agree with you. So there is a very good possibility that the West will not be able to seize this strategic opportunity. But I am hoping that smaller Western allies from East Asia with little history of hostility and a huge history of trading and economic relations with the Muslim world, such as Japan and South Korea, will be able to take full advantage of this medium term tilt in geopolitics.

So the above, in my opinion, is what might happen in the medium term, as China with its BRICS grouping tries to diminish West's dominance on world affairs, economic as well as military, which actually is not a bad thing for the world as well as its smaller subset, the Muslim world.

But in the long term, I doubt that this scenario will continue. China will over time find itself in a position that choosing Muslims over Hindu's would be beneficial for them, because collectively Muslim world is already bigger and will become 2-3 times the size of the Hindu world. Besides I always wonder what will happen when India finds itself as the biggest importer of Western weapons systems, when Russian weapons loose their edge over Chinese ones? Will West not gain more sway over Indian foreign policy then? Will China ever provide India its best weapons and weapons tech to defend their nation and will India trust China to be their weapons source? I think that scenario is extremely unlikely.

In the long term, I see China and Western allies like Japan and South Korea closer to the Muslim world, than they will be to the West or the Hindu world or the Zionists. And in the long term, I see the Zionists loose their power of control as the US and West finds this contrived and artificial control and direction, detrimental to their economic and strategic interest. So my prediction is a comprehensive defeat for the anti-Islam forces of the world, such as India and Zionists and their medium term allies eventually distancing themselves from these two entities.

As for your opinions on Muslim unity, I appreciate your positive thought and support for this direction of the Muslim world. More unity, economic and military relations among Muslim population of the world, in my opinion, will be a stabilizing force for global geopolitics. It was West's lack of wisdom in viewing the fragmentation of Muslim world as a strategic goal in earlier centures, that is at the root of the much of the degeneration that is currently showing up from Muslim regions of the world. I do not blame the West, it was the lack of wisdom and foresightedness that allowed others to fragment and weaken us. Hopefully Muslims of the world will learn more lessons in coming decades and set about to become more united and help each other more. I think this is bound to happen, regardless of the wide variety of religiosity among Muslim population and whether people remain religious or become, less religious, more atheistic and identify more as cultural Muslims.

As for spreading Islamic law and Sharia, I doubt that this is the direction that things will move. Rather it will be increasing economic and military relations between OIC member countries, regardless of their current geopolitical direction, such as Indonesia and Malaysia becoming key and major parts of ASEAN, Turkey becoming a EU member or not, Central Asian stans becoming part of Russian led Eurasian Economic Community etc. Meaning both processes will happen in parallel. But with time, the Muslim world and its unity, if there is proper leadership and right moves, will provide more economic and strategic opportunity for these nations, because of the increasing population (3.3 - 4 billion by 2100 AD) and as a result the Muslim world having an increasingly bigger chunk of the world economy.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

@Chinese-Dragon I think you are being unfair to my theories. I did not say that China and the Muslim world are in a collision course. I believe there are only two entities and groups that are on a collision course with the Muslim world in the long term future:
1. India
2. Zionists

The more China gets closer to these two entities, the more the Muslim world will become distant from China, in my opinion.

I don't think any of the major Muslim nations in the world care about India one way or the other. In fact they seem pretty happy to work with them in all fields.

It seems entirely irrelevant, even your own country Bangladesh has turned itself into a vassal state of India. Voluntarily as well.

And I have not heard of any Muslim nation having a problem with BRICS like you have.

If you have a problem with Hindus, that's fine. But it had nothing to do with global geopolitics, and only affects South Asia. It's irrelevant to the rest of the world.

Zionism, yes I can see the Islamic world being upset with them. And you advocate joining the main Zionist country in the world, America. And frankly, America is never going to stop supporting Israel either.

I support a unified Muslim world for their own sake, I think they have the right to have their own power and sovereignty in the world, just like everyone else.

But I also believe they will be sensible enough to take a neutral stance, rather than your wild theories of the Muslim world supporting America in a war against China/Russia/BRICS. (And such a war can only be nuclear).

Luckily none of the decision makers in the Muslim world seem to follow such crazy ideas. They are all expanding cooperation with the BRICS nations.

 

[kalu_miah]

I don't think any of the major Muslim nations in the world care about India one way or the other. In fact they seem pretty happy to work with them in all fields.

It seems entirely irrelevant, even your own country Bangladesh has turned itself into a vassal state of India. Voluntarily as well.

And I have not heard of any Muslim nation having a problem with BRICS like you have.

If you have a problem with Hindus, that's fine. But it had nothing to do with global geopolitics, and only affects South Asia. It's irrelevant to the rest of the world.

Zionism, yes I can see the Islamic world being upset with them. And you advocate joining the main Zionist country in the world, America. And frankly, America is never going to stop supporting Israel either.

I support a unified Muslim world for their own sake, I think they have the right to have their own power and sovereignty in the world, just like everyone else.

But I also believe they will be sensible enough to take a neutral stance, rather than your wild theories of the Muslim world supporting America in a war against China/Russia/BRICS. (And such a war can only be nuclear).

Luckily none of the decision makers in the Muslim world seem to follow such crazy ideas. They are all expanding cooperation with the BRICS nations.

Pakistan and Bangladesh together have a significant chunk of Muslim population of the world and all of us care about India. It is not just me, rather 600 million Muslims of South Asia have a problem with Hindutva extremism and chauvinism which directly affects all of us. That is a significant chunk of world Muslim population and no Muslim nation can ignore that, not Arabs, not Indonesians or Malaysians, not Turks or Turkic Central Asian, not Persians (eventually when the crazy sectarian policies of Mullah rule ends) and not Sahel Africans. By virtue of South Asian Muslim population size no Muslim group and as a result the entire Muslim world will be able to ignore the concern of 600 million Muslims in South Asia. And so this is how it is not my personal matter, but the matter of 600 million South Asian Muslims and as a result a matter for the Muslim world. Kashmir is as much a concern as Palestine is for the Muslim world and it will become more so in coming decades. Indian killing and terrorism in Bangladesh using its agent will also become a concern, but this problem is much easier to resolve and within the scope of Bangladeshi people. Its just a matter of time.

I appreciate your support of a unified Muslim world, as you said, we deserve to have our own power, sovereignty and a pole of our own in the future multi-polar world.

I want to clarify again that Muslims have little interest in getting into direct alliance with the US or West, for obvious reasons, but rather the alliance may happen with some partners of the West such as NATO member Turkey who are a leading Muslim nation and NATO partner nations Japan and South Korea, two nations who are highly developed, already have high technology as good or better than the West, but have no historical baggage to burden their relations with the Muslim world.

My logic is that BRICS is a formidable group and when the US and West is faced with such an alliance if it ever comes to pass (note I do not think that BRICS will turn into a military alliance and may remain only an economic grouping), then they will have no choice but to rethink their geopolitics, which may open up opportunity for others. Currently the only Muslim nations who have joined or are likely to join BRICS are Iran, because of their isolation and Central Asians because of their still being within Russian sphere of influence. If Chinese leaders are dreaming of bringing India and Pakistan under one umbrella, then I want to tell them to please wake up from that dream, not gonna happen.

The current decision makers in the Muslim world are mostly traitors, usurpers, puppets or incompetent fools working against the interest of the Muslim world. Those will be the first to go before we see more unity in the Muslim world. And that should happen within our life time, in a few decades. So the craziness is rather with these people than myself who want unity of the Muslim world, which you also agree that it is good for us Muslims. The only disagreement we have is what the Muslim world position will be with regards to groups like BRICS. Let us agree to disagree on this point and let time tell us how things will turn out.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Pakistan and Bangladesh together have a significant chunk of Muslim population of the world and all of us care about India. It is not just me, rather 600 million Muslims of South Asia have a problem with Hindutva extremism and chauvinism which directly affects all of us.

See you say that, but then your country is probably the most pro-India country in the entire region, in terms of both the government and the population opinion polls.

So if we were to smack India like we did in 1962, it seems much more likely that Bangladesh would turn against us and support India, in a replay of Ayub Khan's actions.

The current decision makers in the Muslim world are mostly traitors, usurpers, puppets or incompetent fools working against the interest of the Muslim world. Those will be the first to go before we see more unity in the Muslim world. And that should happen within our life time, in a few decades. So the craziness is rather with these people than myself who want unity of the Muslim world, which you also agree that it is good for us Muslims. The only disagreement we have is what the Muslim world position will be with regards to groups like BRICS. Let us agree to disagree on this point and let time tell us how things will turn out.

We deal with governments, or at the very least, majority public opinions. Your arguments seem to neither echo those of your government, or of Bangladeshi public opinion, which both seem to be very pro-India, meaning that any move we make against India could create a backlash against us from Bangladesh.

I support Muslim world unity because they are like China, having been on the receiving end of Western hegemony for centuries. But your idea is to join those guys (specifically America), and then help them to suppress us again.

So perhaps it is lucky for us that Muslim countries, including your own, do not seem to share your opinions.

 

[kalu_miah]

See you say that, but then your country is probably the most pro-India country in the entire region, in terms of both the government and the population opinion polls.

So if we were to smack India like we did in 1962, it seems much more likely that Bangladesh would turn against us and support India, in a replay of Ayub Khan's actions.

We deal with governments, or at the very least, majority public opinions. Your arguments seem to neither echo those of your government, or of Bangladeshi public opinion, which both seem to be very pro-India, meaning that any move we make against India could create a backlash against us from Bangladesh.

I support Muslim world unity because they are like China, having been on the receiving end of Western hegemony for centuries. But your idea is to join those guys (specifically America), and then help them to suppress us again.

So perhaps it is lucky for us that Muslim countries, including your own, do not seem to share your opinions.

You have wrong impression about Bangladeshi's supporting India. If there was free and fair election today, Indian puppets and agents would be removed. They are holding on to power at gun point and with Indian help. It will not last. Around 85% Bangladeshi's consider India as existential threat (water sharing and hegemonic interference are the two main concerns), only 5% Muslims are traitors and members of Awami League and their supporters who get benefit from their rule. And around 9% Hindu Bangladeshi's support India and are helping Awami League stay in power.

As long as you support Muslim unity then that is all I care about. What geopolitical direction the more unified Muslim world would take, that is for them to decide, whether that is towards a closer relations with West or China or both, it does not concern me at all. In the past, the West was responsible for the fragmentation of the Muslim world. Ottoman broke up at the hands of the West. Our Bengal Sultanate we lost to the British. So we have no special love for the West. But we look towards future and not dwell in the past, even after their recent foolish adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now consider this hypothetical scenario:
- Muslim nations are slowly and gradually making efforts to achieve more unity
- China comes forward to help this unity effort
- the West stands against this unity effort

In such a scenario, should a Muslim like myself take the side of the West who is secretly or openly trying to harm our unity or should we take the side of China who not only do not mind having a more unified Muslim world, but are willing to help Muslims achieve more unity. In such a situation, regardless of BRICs and China's closer relations with India, we Muslims will still choose China over the West.

Bottom line, whoever supports unity of Muslim world, we will support them, because that is in our collective interest and future well being.

 

[Vinod2070]

See you say that, but then your country is probably the most pro-India country in the entire region, in terms of both the government and the population opinion polls.

Some people are just unable to think objectively.

India has no problems with Islam or any Muslim country. We have decent to good relations with most Muslim countries in the world. In addition, Indian Muslims enjoy democracy and religious freedom (for all sects) that is almost unprecedented anywhere in the world for any large Muslim population anywhere.

I have seen so many Indian Muslims openly being thankful that they are in India and not in many of the places where you see the terrorists running amok, killing this or that sect.

These hate filled, self loathing, good for nothing jamatis vent out their wet dreams and pet peeves on the internet. Nobody needs to take them seriously. They jump from declaring the same country the protector of Muslims to the biggest enemy of Muslims, sometimes in the space of a few days (or the same day), depending on which side of the bed they fell from in the morning.

Anyway, such jamatis have no standing in their own country. Actually calling it "their country" may be a stretch as well for various reasons, we can avoid going there for now.

Their claims to speak for all Muslims of the world is just their pathetic fantasy as they have no identity of their own.

 

[Vinod2070]

Bangldeshi Muslims have reason to be grateful to India.

We saved them from an ongoing orgy of rapine and genocide at the hands of "fellow Muslims". We sacrificed more than 4000 Indian soldiers and hosted more than 10 million of their refugees in 1971, escaping from this biggest genocide after WW-2.

No Muslim country ever cared for their plight, nor did the West or any other country that these Jamatis are trying to run after.

When more than 100,000 Bengalis died in a cyclone, no Muslim country gave a damn.

These jamatis wanted to see Bangladeshis join the likes of ISIS to kill the Shia of Iraq and Iran.

Such terror supporters need to be in Gitmo. Not sure how countries like USA allow them such freedom.

Probably the charges against them of supporting the terrorists may be true if they don't clean up this terrorist mess in their midst.

Or may be Bangladesh may get these terrorists extradited and deal with them as needed.

 

[Zabaniyah]

See what I highlighted, that does not exist in Islam. You have to follow the rules written 1500 years ago. There is no adapting to the modern world and when that happens to take place among them, you are seeing the kind of revolt and ' jihad' that raises its head up.

There was no Islam 1500 years ago.

And don't worry.....they'll evolve. The Jihadhists use war equipment and tactics of the modern world against your soldiers, is it not? Your nation's bittersweet experience in Iraq is evidence of that, and what is about to come for the region. And that is something you couldn't fully control even with all that power. Now who wasn't really adapting to the "modern world", hmm?

 

[Zabaniyah]

Bangldeshi Muslims have reason to be grateful to India.

We saved them from an ongoing orgy of rapine and genocide at the hands of "fellow Muslims". We sacrificed more than 4000 Indian soldiers and hosted more than 10 million of their refugees in 1971, escaping from this biggest genocide after WW-2.

No Muslim country ever cared for their plight, nor did the West or any other country that these Jamatis are trying to run after.

When more than 100,000 Bengalis died in a cyclone, no Muslim country gave a damn.

These jamatis wanted to see Bangladeshis join the likes of ISIS to kill the Shia of Iraq and Iran.

Such terror supporters need to be in Gitmo. Not sure how countries like USA allow them such freedom.

Probably the charges against them of supporting the terrorists may be true if they don't clean up this terrorist mess in their midst.

Or may be Bangladesh may get these terrorists extradited and deal with them as needed.

I'm sorry, but look, you guys had your fair share of use. And honestly, we don't need you anymore. Your folks in the north east still couldn't come to terms for the refugees after nearly half a century on. We have gone up against ULFA, and yet the same.

Lack of leadership is a dangerous thing. We don't want any part of your problems, that's just about it.

And which cyclone would that be? The 1991 cyclone?

The relief effort truly was an international operation. Besides the indigenous GOB forces and the international and local NGO, several countries joined the United States in participating. The United Kingdom sent a supply ship with four helicopters. The Japanese government sent two helicopters. India, Pakistan, and China also provided assistance.

Operation Sea Angel / Productive Effort

And Saudi Arabia was the leading donor

Saudi Arabia, the leading governmental donor in terms of money, has given $100 million for the relief effort. Other aid donors include the European Community, which has donated $12 million; Britain, $7 million; India, $5 million; Pakistan, $4.3 million; Japan, $2.5 million, and Canada, $1.5 million. -------------------- Floods and an Earthquake

U.S. SENDS TROOPS TO AID BANGLADESH IN CYCLONE RELIEF - New York Times

Operation Sea Angel was one of the largest disaster recovery operations ever.

We have faced and survived many cyclones, and our friends come to help because it is the humane thing to do. Does a Marine say: "I'm there to help because of my religion." ? Is that suppose to make sense?

And Bangladeshis joining ISIS? Name me one for starters. Jamaat does not engage in sectarian politics.

 

[Vinod2070]

I'm sorry, but look, you guys had your fair share of use. And honestly, we don't need you anymore. Your folks in the north east still couldn't come to terms for the refugees after nearly half a century on. We have gone up against ULFA, and yet the same.

Lack of leadership is a dangerous thing. We don't want any part of your problems, that's just about it.

Same here. We just need to act like neighbors, nothing more nothing less..

And which cyclone would that be? The 1991 cyclone?

1970 Bhola cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1970 Bhola cyclone was a devastating tropical cyclone that struck East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and India's West Bengal on November 12, 1970. It remains the deadliest tropical cyclone ever recorded, and one of the deadliest natural disasters in modern times.[2] Up to 500,000 people lost their lives in the storm, primarily as a result of the storm surge that flooded much of the low-lying islands of the Ganges Delta.

And Bangladeshis joining ISIS? Name me one for starters. Jamaat does not engage in sectarian politics.

I was talking of this Jamati @kalu_miah who has been asking BD people to act like mercenaries and die in Syria and Iraq, fighting on the side of ISIS.

What percentage Bangladeshi's support Syrian fight for freedom against Asad

Why Bangladesh should support Sunni Arab and oppose Iran led Shia extremism

Russia and China are sacrificing Muslim lives so they can keep their and Iran's stooge Asad in place.

The ideal outcome would be eventually for the Sunni's to wake up, beat the Shia and remove the threat of Shia supremacy so that Shia world again become a junior partner of the greater Sunni Muslim world and at least not subvert or threaten Sunni Muslim interest.

This is not a call for persecuting common Shia's of the world, and those in Bangladesh, but to urge them towards an understanding that they must leave the path of a futile conflict they will loose, give up the dream of Shia supremacy and thus return to sanity.

As one of the largest Sunni Muslim nations of the world, Bangladesh has responsibility to take direct role in this conflict. If needed and invited we should actively recruit people, perhaps as migrant workers who can then get trained in Mid-east and take part in the current conflict in Syria and future brewing conflicts in Iraq and Lebanon, so that we can help Sunni countries win and eventually integrate the whole region under greater GCC and Arab League. If we help our Sunni brothers in achieving an integrated Arab League Union and become powerful as a result, they can then help us in our hour of need, when we need their help.

Source: Why Bangladesh should support Sunni Arab and oppose Iran led Shia extremism | Page 3

One thing good about trained fighters is that they will become useful as a hedge against our resident Hindutva terrorist sympathizers and supporters in our country.

Source: Why Bangladesh should support Sunni Arab and oppose Iran led Shia extremism

The openly sectarian terror supporter also wants them to come back to Bangladesh and influence domestic policies through violence.

I hope CIA and NIA are watching such open terrorists and will take good care of these s***. BD will do well to extradite them and give them some nice third degree.

These treacherous scum always bite the hand that feeds them, they understand only one language and it is not the language of tolerance.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Same here. We just need to act like neighbors, nothing more nothing less..

Well, denial and circular logic doesn't help now does it? We want no part of it.

1970 Bhola cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1970 Bhola cyclone was a devastating tropical cyclone that struck East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and India's West Bengal on November 12, 1970. It remains the deadliest tropical cyclone ever recorded, and one of the deadliest natural disasters in modern times.[2] Up to 500,000 people lost their lives in the storm, primarily as a result of the storm surge that flooded much of the low-lying islands of the Ganges Delta.

Well, does Iranian help count? The Arabs were fighting a war at the time. That doesn't change anything in regards to receiving help from Muslim nations, or even India for that matter.

I was talking of this Jamati @kalu_miah who has been asking BD people to act like mercenaries and die in Syria and Iraq, fighting on the side of ISIS.

What percentage Bangladeshi's support Syrian fight for freedom against Asad

Why Bangladesh should support Sunni Arab and oppose Iran led Shia extremism





Source: Why Bangladesh should support Sunni Arab and oppose Iran led Shia extremism | Page 3



Source: Why Bangladesh should support Sunni Arab and oppose Iran led Shia extremism

The openly sectarian terror supporter lso wants them to come back to Bangladesh and influence domestic policies through violence.

I hope CIA and NIA are watching such open terrorists and take good care of these s***. BD will do well to extradite them and give them some nice third degree.

These treacherous scum always bite the hand that feeds them, they understand only one language and it is not the language of tolerance.

It's NSA actually.

And I don't know about his political party affiliations. Actually, he is pretty critical of Muslim extremists in the US. Just to be clear that Jamaat doesn't engage in sectarian politics. Bangladeshis follow the Sunni Hanafi school of thought.

Those threads are over a year old.

 

[Vinod2070]

My post was mainly about the wet dreams of some people here. Not sure you got the context right here.

Well, denial and circular logic doesn't help now does it? We want no part of it.

Not sure what you are trying to say or what exactly is your issue here.

This is exactly how it should be! The same thing that I am saying. You just have no business obsessing with internal parts or issues of India just like I won't worry about your internal issues.

Well, does Iranian help count? The Arabs were fighting a war at the time. That doesn't change anything in regards to receiving help from Muslim nations, or even India for that matter.

Again refer above. The post was in retort to the post about the wet dreams of Sunni Ummah against "enemy Hindus"!

Obviously everyone should help when such a tragedy strikes any people. Race/color/religion/past animosity should not be a factor here.

When the time came it seems it were the evil Shia and Hindus that offered help

It's NSA actually.

Yes and may be I should add FBI and other domestic terrorist tracking agencies to the list. They should ensure such people don't misuse the privilege given to them by indulging in treason and terror support.

And I don't know about his political party affiliations. Actually, he is pretty critical of Muslim extremists in the US. Just to be clear that Jamaat doesn't engage in sectarian politics. Bangladeshis follow the Sunni Hanafi school of thought.

Refer to some posts in this thread and the threads I referred. I am talking about that and that too because these clueless jamatis dragged us. They have no identity of their own, are held in contempt by the BD society and yet want to think their wretched existence has a larger purpose that is just not there in reality.

So these wretched hate filled bigots like kalu_miah start obsessing with India and Hindus as if we owe these traitors something, or to find a common cause with others who have contempt for their treason.

Such people need to understand that we are glad to be rid of them and have nothing whatsoever to do with them. They should come to grips with the reality and not obsess with us.

Partition was a one way street, there is no going back. Though I don't see why we need to hate each other now. Just live and let live.

I don't care about the Jamat in BD, they are none of my concern.

Those threads are over a year old.

So?