The future of the Pakistani Diaspora and cultural and political links with the motherland

[cocomo]

Have you ever listened to Bhulle Shahs poetry? He asks himself who he is and self reflection is part of our genetic make up.

I think bulleh shah tells us to contemplate our spiritual self. I don't think sufis even accept identities, ultimately everything issues from God. I don't think we should go there into the metaphysical, lets stick with the physical plane. I am talking about cultural identities, one of which is imbued with religious symbolism and the other which rejects them. Living these two simultaneously is a contradiction and bad for your mental health.

 

[El Sidd]

I think bulleh shah tells us to contemplate our spiritual self. I don't think sufis even accept identities, ultimately everything issues from God. I don't think we should go there into the metaphysical, lets stick with the physical plane. I am talking about cultural identities, one of which is imbued with religious symbolism and the other which rejects them. Living these two simultaneously is a contradiction and bad for your mental health.

Can you formulate your question with an example?

I believe Bhulle Shah is a cultural figure in Pakistan.

 

[cocomo]

Can you formulate your question with an example?

An example would be a british Pakistani who is a Muslim and lives in a strictly religious environment at home but has to act Western culturally when at school to get a long, to fit in. He would rather choose one and live a comfortable life.
And Bulleh shah rejects all physical identities, momin, kafir, atish, ponr.... He isn't advising us to be all of them, rather be none of them. na mein atish na mein ponr.... He does contemplate about his identity but first by rejecting physical ones. He wants to take you to non-physical/metaphysical plane so to say.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Talking about Just my cousins who were Born in UK, US and HK and some of my Friends there. Most of them Neither hold Pakistan Nor Paksitani Culture in High Regards. The ones that actually Care about Pakistan are First generation Immigrants and some Second generation ones whose families put too much Emphasis on Culture and Religion.

Some of them have even Intermarried among the Locals so and are not Much Religious they Pretend to be In front of their Parents to keep them Happy and hold some of the same Cultural Taboos that we do But thats about it.

The Next Generation i feel wont Even have this link due to their Parents having little to no connection with Pakistan other than name. As the community will become less Religious over the time the connection will wither away. As Pakistanis are not Homogeneous we dont even have a Common Language to hold our community there Together.

As long as Fresh first Generation Immigration continues there will always be a connection to the Homeland but the 2nd 3rd and 4th Generations will not associate themselves with the Homeland of their Grandparents and Great Grandparents.

Plus Pakistan is on its way where in Future if we achieve our current geopolitical objectives we will be on the Opposite side of Anglo sphere and the bad press we receive is only going to get worse. A stronger Pakistan will interfere in the Middle East and African More and will clash with western interests there.

 

[El Sidd]

And Bulleh shah rejects all physical identities, momin, kafir, atish, ponr.... He isn't advising us to be all of them, rather be none of them. na mein atish na mein ponr.... He does contemplate about his identity but first by rejecting physical ones. He wants to take you to non-physical/metaphysical plane so to say.

or it could mean a harmonious mutual inclusive existence with the evil within and outside.

An example would be a british Pakistani who is a Muslim and lives in a strictly religious environment at home but has to act Western culturally when at school to get a long, to fit in. He would rather choose one and live a comfortable life.

That is true for almost every religious family. That is why every religion speaks of the same evils of society and the same cardinal sins are preached almost on the entire globe in one way or another.

An atheist father has a headache when his daughter goes on her first date as well.

I think as long as that British Pakistani is not being forced into anything. By forced i mean either by legal means or by manipulation.

He can fulfil both his muslim duties as well as legal duties for being Brit and a Pakistani.

Talking about Just my cousins who were Born in UK, US and HK and some of my Friends there. Most of them Neither hold Pakistan Nor Paksitani Culture in High Regards. The ones that actually Care about Pakistan are First generation Immigrants and some Second generation ones whose families put too much Emphasis on Culture and Religion.

Some of them have even Intermarried among the Locals so and are not Much Religious they Pretend to be In front of their Parents to keep them Happy and hold some of the same Cultural Taboos that we do But thats about it.

The Next Generation i feel wont Even have this link due to their Parents having little to no connection with Pakistan other than name. As the community will become less Religious over the time the connection will wither away. As Pakistanis are not Homogeneous we dont even have a Common Language to hold our community there Together.

As long as Fresh first Generation Immigration continues there will always be a connection to the Homeland but the 2nd 3rd and 4th Generations will not associate themselves with the Homeland of their Grandparents and Great Grandparents.

Plus Pakistan is on its way where in Future if we achieve our current geopolitical objectives we will be on the Opposite side of Anglo sphere and the bad press we receive is only going to get worse. A stronger Pakistan will interfere in the Middle East and African More and will clash with western interests there.

abhi time hai ghar wapsi me

 

[Hassan Guy]

It's going to vary just like any other diaspora.

You're going have people that will completely assimilate wherever they are, and some that will go back.

But what's interesting is you've got people that are very religious and culturally very 'Pakistani' but don't associate at all with Pakistan and consider themselves completely native to whatever western country they are in. These are the same nut-job's that try making eid a public holiday in the United Kingdom.

On the other hand you've got people that aren't very religious and culturally completely 'westernized' but are still hardline patriots to their country of heritage. People can have more than one flag, even if the relationship is slightly different.

 

[El Sidd]

These are the same nut-job's that try making eid a public holiday in the United Kingdom.

So Muslims can have a holiday in parts of Germany but not in UK where they are more in numbers?

only dumb nutjob is the UK government here who pays them to go to work and spend 8 hours on virtual eid celebrations

 

[waz]

There’s a few social dynamics at play here. Over the course of the years what’s happened is that the strong ties that our parents and grandparents have to the fatherland have weakened over time. This is due to relatives passing away in Pakistan and here, so the relationship that cemented visits and attachment to Pakistan has gone. People also became preoccupied with their lives here, so time and resources had to be devoted in the U.K. in order to establish themselves here. It was a simple case of opportunity cost, so developing links with Pakistan suffered.
You now have fifth generation British Pakistani children, some of whom are not bilingual, in terms of having a Pakistani language, so the disconnect can be greater.
However that being said British Pakistani youngsters still have a keen interest and attachment to the land of their ancestors, and with the popularity of travelling, we have seen many making a journey themselves and discovering their roots. Many young British Pakistanis have set up charity projects in Pakistan, volunteer etc, so overall ties do remain strong.

They are beginning to inter marry now, apart from which a lot of 3rd/4th generation immigrants are beginning to integrate and become more secular.
Give it one more generation from now and things will become a lot clearer.

Haven’t seen that at all, in actual fact it’s quite rare. Census results show that third/fourth generation Pakistanis have the lowest rate of interracial marriage of any ethnic group, it was 8%, virtually all men. Bengalis and Indians had higher figures, but it wasn’t much different.
As for being more secular, nope, all research shows that youngsters in the U.K. are more religious and devout than their parents, and I’ve seen this with my very own eyes with the children I taught over generations.

The report noted rising religious observance over the 2005-2009 period, saying “this rise was particularly evident in the younger (16-29) age group (from 68 per cent to 80 per cent)” compared to 73-79 per cent for all

www.independent.co.uk/voices/british-muslims-ipsos-mori-liberal-imams-islam-a8334196.html%3famp

Growing up I could recall hardly ever seeing a Pakistani girl wear a hijab, now it’s incredibly popular if you go to any region in the U.K, with a significant British Pakistani population. I do also see British Pakistani youngsters embrace a more pan-Islamic identity than a Pakistani one, which their forefathers did.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Why bother about the hellhole which you were lucky enough to escape? Be a responsible law abiding citizen in your new homeland and integrate.

Lmao what a moronic statement

Called your own country of origin a ‘hell hole’. Have some dignity

If Pakistanis hate themselves this much, imagine what other groups must think...

 

[Valar.]

Lmao what a moronic statement

Called your own country of origin a ‘hell hole’. Have some dignity

If Pakistanis hate themselves this much, imagine what other groups must think...

It's not just Pakistan specific. Every third world country is a hellhole and that's why people immigrate from there to first world countries.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

It’s strange to see how so many people think Pakistan will somehow develop even when it’s most promising citizens leave.

Its strange to see how so many people think Pakistan should be a first world country, even when it took Europe hundreds of years.

It’s strange to see how so many people think that just because you migrate to the West, just because you live there, that you can somehow become white, somehow abandon your ethnicity and heritage entirely.

Eventually the future gens will mix in with the local populations or form a community outside of the locals again uncertain future

Degeneration of cultures other than the dominant one is an inherent product of liberalism. Hence the only trend I can see in the future is diaspora Pakistanis becoming more and more Westernised up to the point that they have fully ‘assimilated’ into their host country’s culture. This is evident in many other minorities living in the West, and the only reason why it is happening slower for Pakistanis is really because of Islam and poverty.

 

[Longhorn]

It’s strange to see how so many people think Pakistan will somehow develop even when it’s most promising citizens leave.

Its strange to see how so many people think Pakistan should be a first world country, even when it took Europe hundreds of years.

It’s strange to see how so many people think that just because you migrate to the West, just because you live there, that you can somehow become white, somehow abandon your ethnicity and heritage entirely.



Degeneration of cultures other than the dominant one is an inherent product of liberalism. Hence the only trend I can see in the future is diaspora Pakistanis becoming more and more Westernised up to the point that they have fully ‘assimilated’ into their host country’s culture. This is evident in many other minorities living in the West, and the only reason why it is happening slower for Pakistanis is really because of Islam and poverty.

It's inevitable.
The only question up for debate is the speed it happens at.

 

[Valar.]

West main bhi Pakistanis poor hain? Phir Pakistan chornay ka faida?

Wahan kay standard kay mutabiq ghareeb hain. Pakistani lehaz say Ameer.

 

[313ghazi]

West main bhi Pakistanis poor hain? Phir Pakistan chornay ka faida?

There is poor and there is poor. In Pakistan the poor in our village live in mud huts or temporary shelters, have no transport, no access to healthcare, can't afford electricity, clothes, school.

In the UK, those who are really poor get free healthcare, free education, get enough money from the state to pay for rent and food. A very small percentage of the Pakistani diaspora are this kind of poor. Most are a different "poor".

Take the "poor" taxi driver. He makes £500-600 a week profit from his taxi, claims on his tax returns to have only made £200, claims state benefit to top up his wages, lives in a house in a deprived part of the city, but has completely rennovated it inside and out, has expensive furniture and fittings, goes on holidays paid for by cash, has zameen and a villa back home in Pakistan. The same is true for the poor takeaway owner, who or staff member who only works "part time". The takeaway owners by far have the most money in our community - the staff make minimum wage at best i reckon.

Times are changing though.The first generation here did not do this - they worked in factories and paid their way. Then when the rug was pulled out from under their feet and manufacturing finished in the UK, people did what they had to, to survive and to support those back home (that is why we are all here). The next generation continued it as it was quick cash and an opportunity to aquire wealth - money overtakes morals very often.

Now the incentive to do so is less.

1. Cost of living is higher, more of the economy is documented, so you're more likely to get caught.

2. People have mostly established themselves back home. The fresh migrants are still interested in supporting family, the rest of us are now interested in investing money back home.

3. People want more from life. People want expensive cars, they want homes in the suburbs - you can't but that with cash. People show their legitimate income to secure that (even if it is for a few years).

So whats my point?

1. The UK/West provides a safety net for the poor, a net which doesn't exist in PK.
2. People aren't as poor as they appear to be.

 

[Valar.]

Ziada Pakistanis wahan kis type ki jobs krtay hain

Mukhtalif qism kay Pakistani hain mukhtalif mulkon main. Very few upper class, some upper middle class, majority lower middle to lower class.

Norway kay Pakistani better hain financially on average Britain kay Pakistanio say, for example. Restaurants, taxi services, petrol pumps, Pakistani/Asian/Desi food stores, south asian boutiques aur factory workers type ki jobs hain. Industrialists type kay nahin hain.