The fiction of the Ideology of Pakistan: YLH

[El Sidd]

As an ex-PM famously said in another context: "What's stopping them?". Leave.

Honorable Syed Raza Gilani.

 

[Kompromat]

State Dep ka paisa bolta hai bhai.

Even his beleifs are irrelevant to the fact that he his entire educational and “employment” history points overseas.

His attempts to disguise strawman arguments in eloquent speech are ample evidence enough on why he is just a less brash(and disgusting) Marvi Sirmed.

 

[VCheng]

I don't think everyone has $$$ to uproot their family. Most Ahmadis gone abroad had some savings otherwise the poor ones are stuck in asylum centers in some Asian countries.

When it is a question of survival, extraordinary measures must be employed.

Why not Just let nature take its course?

Pakistan is heading wherever her People take it.

#DealWithIt

Of course, Pakistanis have every right to make whatever they wish to make of Pakistan, and we can see that happening right before our eyes in exercise of that right. The world must respect that right at all times.

Honorable Syed Raza Gilani.

Not much honorable about him, but yes, he said it.

 

[El Sidd]

I don't think everyone has $$$ to uproot their family. Most Ahmadis gone abroad had some savings otherwise the poor ones are stuck in asylum centers in some Asian countries.

You once said you are secular and put Pakistan first.

It was not when we were Kids chasing Chicken but hardly 2 months ago.

You enjoy protected Status. Dont abuse it.

Thanks

 

[M. Sarmad]

No sect claims a false prophethood.

Agreed. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's case is a different one. He had declared himself the bearer of a new inspiration, and while laying claim in some ambiguous terms to prophethood simultaneously denied being a Prophet.

“I have heard that some leading Ulama of this city Delhi are giving publicity to the allegation against me that I lay claim to prophethood. ... I respectfully state to all these gentlemen that these allegations are an entire fabrication. I do not make a claim to prophethood. ... After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, I consider anyone who claims prophethood and messengership to be a liar and unbeliever.”
— Statement issued in Delhi, 2 October 1891. MI, 1986 edition, vol. 1, pp. 230-231... ...


After Ghulam Aḥmad’s death, his followers disputed whether he had really claimed to be a prophet and, if so, what he meant by his prophethood. Even Maulana Maudoodi had to concede that those Ahmadis (i.e.the Lahori Group) who do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a Prophet cannot be declared Non Muslims.

.

No sect claims other Muslims are Kafir (misguidence is a part of Ijma discourse). If they do, they're considered under the Takfeer paradigm and consequently rejected by the authentic scholars of Islam.

No sect refuses to pray Janaza of fellow Muslims.

No sect refuses to marry fellow Muslims.

Now sect refuses to be buried in Muslim graveyard or allow other Muslims to be buried there.

No sect has altered or substituted Sahih Ahadith.

No sect Considers mutual nikkah as null and void.

ONLY fitna of Qadiyaniat does all of the above.

You are wrong on all accounts.
Almost all sects of Muslims do all of what you have mentioned

You can defend Qadiyanis out of some misplaced sense of self righteousness, but their religion is indefensible. You can't defend Qadiyaniat on even logic, let alone according to Shariah.

No one is defending Qadiyaniat.
The point is, no one should be persecuted because of their beliefs, no matter how much the majority (or the mighty) disagree with those beliefs

Bhutto didn't declare them Kafir.

1: Mirza Qadiyani declared Bhutto a Kaafir before Bhutto was even born.

2: The declaration was passed by an undivided majority of representatives, thus it reflects the will of the people.

3: The declaration was a result of the scholarly debate lasting over a decade.

4: Qadiyani's citizen rights are intact so there is no persecution. They fired the first shot.

5: Qadiyani Moolahs have failed to make amnends, therefore there's no liability upon us to make amnends.

It's the very idea of imposing the will of majority on minority, and the majority infringing upon the right of self identification/personal religious identity of those belonging to minority, that is flawed.

Ahmedis can't call themselves Muslims, they can't call their place of worship a Mosque, they are not allowed to propagate their faith, they aren't even allowed to recite the Holy Qur'an (which they consider a divine revelation) or Naat e Rasool publicly or print Quranic verses anywhere, including on their mosques or gravestones. The Constitution of Pakistan discriminates against Non Muslims. From Blasphemy Laws to Evidence Laws (Qanoon e Shahdat), from Hadood Ordinance to Blood Money laws, There are a lot of laws in Pakistan that discriminate against the Non Muslims. Whether it's Education, Inheritance, Marriage, Divorce or Conversion, Pakistani Non Muslims face severe institutionalized religious discrimination.

And then we have mobs and Mullahs ready to lynch any Qadiyani 24/7 ... Qadiyanis, their worship places, their homes and even their graveyards are routinely attacked by sarkari Muslims.... But you believe that there is no persecution of Ahmadiyya in Pakistan !!

 

[VCheng]

It's the very idea of imposing the will of majority on minority, and the majority infringing upon the right of self identification/personal religious identity of those belonging to minority, that is flawed.

Why not? Isn't that what democracy is by definition?

 

[El Sidd]

Of course, Pakistanis have every right to make whatever they wish to make of Pakistan, and we can see that happening right before our eyes in exercise of that right. The world must respect that right at all times.

Well Thats Not our Problem then, is it now?

The World needs a narrative not us

Not much honorable about him, but yes, he said it.

Well i am no one to judge. But i guess People took up on his advice religiously and left

 

[Kompromat]

I have been an avid reader of Ahmadi religious text.

He declared himself not only a Prophet but also the reincarnation of Isa and Imam Mahdi, all at once.

That kind of seals the deal.

You're wrong about the Takfeer between Sects.

There's no authentic fatwa. Just hillaboo from extremist elements which bears no Islamic value.

Agreed. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's case is a different one. He had declared himself the bearer of a new inspiration, and while laying claim in some ambiguous terms to prophethood simultaneously denied being a Prophet.

“I have heard that some leading Ulama of this city Delhi are giving publicity to the allegation against me that I lay claim to prophethood. ... I respectfully state to all these gentlemen that these allegations are an entire fabrication. I do not make a claim to prophethood. ... After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, I consider anyone who claims prophethood and messengership to be a liar and unbeliever.”
— Statement issued in Delhi, 2 October 1891. MI, 1986 edition, vol. 1, pp. 230-231... ...


After Ghulam Aḥmad’s death, his followers disputed whether he had really claimed to be a prophet and, if so, what he meant by his prophethood. Even Maulana Maudoodi had to concede that those Ahmadis (i.e.the Lahori Group) who do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a Prophet cannot be declared Non Muslims.




You are wrong on all accounts.
Almost all sects of Muslims do all of what you have mentioned




No one is defending Qadiyaniat.
The point is, no one should be persecuted because of their beliefs, no matter how much the majority (or the mighty) disagree with those beliefs





It's the very idea of imposing the will of majority on minority, and the majority infringing upon the right of self identification/personal religious identity of those belonging to minority, that is flawed.

Ahmedis can't call themselves Muslims, they can't call their place of worship a Mosque, they are not allowed to propagate their faith, they aren't even allowed to recite the Holy Qur'an (which they consider a divine revelation) or Naat e Rasool publicly or print Quranic verses anywhere, including on their mosques or gravestones. The Constitution of Pakistan discriminates against Non Muslims. From Blasphemy Laws to Evidence Laws (Qanoon e Shahdat), from Hadood Ordinance to Blood Money laws, There are a lot of laws in Pakistan that discriminate against the Non Muslims. Whether it's Education, Inheritance, Marriage, Divorce or Conversion, Pakistani Non Muslims face severe institutionalized religious discrimination.

And then we have mobs and Mullahs ready to lynch any Qadiyani 24/7 ... Qadiyanis, their worship places, their homes and even their graveyards are routinely attacked by sarkari Muslims.... But you believe that there is no persecution of Ahmadiyya in Pakistan !!

 

[TMA]

Simple explanation is:

A Qadiyani calling the Nazriya e Pakistan a work of "fiction" is a conflict of interest in letter and spirit.

The Qadiyani project was launched by the British empire to divide and rule. The hatred and enmity of Islam runs in the DNA and through the Qadiyani finance machine.

You sound like a bigot(!) You need to learn the ways of true tolerance(!)

 

[Kompromat]

Bhai jaan. Ask an Ahmadi if his religion allows him to offer your Janaza

Agreed. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's case is a different one. He had declared himself the bearer of a new inspiration, and while laying claim in some ambiguous terms to prophethood simultaneously denied being a Prophet.

“I have heard that some leading Ulama of this city Delhi are giving publicity to the allegation against me that I lay claim to prophethood. ... I respectfully state to all these gentlemen that these allegations are an entire fabrication. I do not make a claim to prophethood. ... After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, I consider anyone who claims prophethood and messengership to be a liar and unbeliever.”
— Statement issued in Delhi, 2 October 1891. MI, 1986 edition, vol. 1, pp. 230-231... ...


After Ghulam Aḥmad’s death, his followers disputed whether he had really claimed to be a prophet and, if so, what he meant by his prophethood. Even Maulana Maudoodi had to concede that those Ahmadis (i.e.the Lahori Group) who do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a Prophet cannot be declared Non Muslims.




You are wrong on all accounts.
Almost all sects of Muslims do all of what you have mentioned




No one is defending Qadiyaniat.
The point is, no one should be persecuted because of their beliefs, no matter how much the majority (or the mighty) disagree with those beliefs





It's the very idea of imposing the will of majority on minority, and the majority infringing upon the right of self identification/personal religious identity of those belonging to minority, that is flawed.

Ahmedis can't call themselves Muslims, they can't call their place of worship a Mosque, they are not allowed to propagate their faith, they aren't even allowed to recite the Holy Qur'an (which they consider a divine revelation) or Naat e Rasool publicly or print Quranic verses anywhere, including on their mosques or gravestones. The Constitution of Pakistan discriminates against Non Muslims. From Blasphemy Laws to Evidence Laws (Qanoon e Shahdat), from Hadood Ordinance to Blood Money laws, There are a lot of laws in Pakistan that discriminate against the Non Muslims. Whether it's Education, Inheritance, Marriage, Divorce or Conversion, Pakistani Non Muslims face severe institutionalized religious discrimination.

And then we have mobs and Mullahs ready to lynch any Qadiyani 24/7 ... Qadiyanis, their worship places, their homes and even their graveyards are routinely attacked by sarkari Muslims.... But you believe that there is no persecution of Ahmadiyya in Pakistan !!

 

[doorstar]

Agreed. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's case is a different one. He had declared himself the bearer of a new inspiration, and while laying claim in some ambiguous terms to prophethood simultaneously denied being a Prophet.

“I have heard that some leading Ulama of this city Delhi are giving publicity to the allegation against me that I lay claim to prophethood. ... I respectfully state to all these gentlemen that these allegations are an entire fabrication. I do not make a claim to prophethood. ... After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, I consider anyone who claims prophethood and messengership to be a liar and unbeliever.”
— Statement issued in Delhi, 2 October 1891. MI, 1986 edition, vol. 1, pp. 230-231... ...


After Ghulam Aḥmad’s death, his followers disputed whether he had really claimed to be a prophet and, if so, what he meant by his prophethood. Even Maulana Maudoodi had to concede that those Ahmadis (i.e.the Lahori Group) who do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a Prophet cannot be declared Non Muslims.




You are wrong on all accounts.
Almost all sects of Muslims do all of what you have mentioned




No one is defending Qadiyaniat.
The point is, no one should be persecuted because of their beliefs, no matter how much the majority (or the mighty) disagree with those beliefs





It's the very idea of imposing the will of majority on minority, and the majority infringing upon the right of self identification/personal religious identity of those belonging to minority, that is flawed.

Ahmedis can't call themselves Muslims, they can't call their place of worship a Mosque, they are not allowed to propagate their faith, they aren't even allowed to recite the Holy Qur'an (which they consider a divine revelation) or Naat e Rasool publicly or print Quranic verses anywhere, including on their mosques or gravestones. The Constitution of Pakistan discriminates against Non Muslims. From Blasphemy Laws to Evidence Laws (Qanoon e Shahdat), from Hadood Ordinance to Blood Money laws, There are a lot of laws in Pakistan that discriminate against the Non Muslims. Whether it's Education, Inheritance, Marriage, Divorce or Conversion, Pakistani Non Muslims face severe institutionalized religious discrimination.

And then we have mobs and Mullahs ready to lynch any Qadiyani 24/7 ... Qadiyanis, their worship places, their homes and even their graveyards are routinely attacked by sarkari Muslims.... But you believe that there is no persecution of Ahmadiyya in Pakistan !!

NOT only prophet-hood but also the second coming of Christ/Masih is being ascribed to mirza sahib by the current leader of Ahmadi Muslims

You are wrong on all accounts.
Almost all sects of Muslims do all of what you have mentioned

only the half-read morons and/or india loving/arab hating iranis and their Pakistani followers

 

[El Sidd]

When it is a question of survival, extraordinary measures must be employed.

Survival?

How did they survive if they are facing existential threat?

Its not America where each cult has a state within a state.

Stop the kapra phaaring please.

 

[VCheng]

Survival?

How did they survive if they are facing existential threat?

Its not America where each cult has a state within a state.

Stop the kapra phaaring please.

Exactly my point. If they are not leaving, then may be the threat is not existential.

 

[M. Sarmad]

While it can be regarded as shoot the messenger, in this case the merit for shooting the messenger for me outweighs the merit for any constructive argument on the message itself.

And I believe that as shooting the messenger is a logical fallacy therefore it has no merit. So, a fallacy "outweighing" the merit for constructive argument is out of question. We, however, can agree to disagree on this

 

[TMA]

Sounds like you're allergic to facts.

Facts and truths do not matter(.) What matters is tolerance even if they are to lies and deception(.) That is what Pakistan ought to do in order for her to be successful(.) People like you are holding Pakistan from being successful(.)