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The enemy within!

I don't think by "toning down" would give me any more of an influence on these gullible Pakistanis
If you want influence, you could start with reducing the immaturity of your comments and constantly saying things like ''gullible Pakistanis''. Look up the definition of gullible. The fact that we disagree with you instead of buying everything you say is the exact opposite of being gullible.
In Arab countries, where all the current roots of violent versions of Islam can be traced, they never taught their children in institutions that are run by some semi-literate Mullahs. In fact, violent reactionary versions of Islam got their boost after Saudi oil wealth expansion. You expect people to believe that violent Jihadis like Bin Laden and other Arabs who arrived in Afghanistan for "Jihad" against Soviets were educated in some third world standard institutions? Nope. They studied in professional Islamic schools, that were funded by Saudi Education ministry
And what about all the terrorists that grew up in the Western secular system and were kept completely illiterate about religion and are now going to fight with ISIS because some mullah on the streets told them things about Islam and they had no idea how wrong those things were because nobody ever taught them about Islam?

The 'Jihad' in Afghanistan was a purely political move and the Saudis purposely indoctrinated select people for that purpose to aid with their interests. It does not, in any way, discredit the idea of teaching people about religion to prevent radicalization.
There is. And believe or not, they are more than one, but sadly none of them forms a Muslim majority, unlucky for you :D
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http://hossein-askari.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/islamicity-index.pdf
See, this is some of that immaturity I was talking about. @Azad-Kashmiri makes a perfectly valid point about there not being any Islamic state in existence. And then you reply with some half-baked ''Economic Islamicity Index'' as proof that somehow Ireland is an Islamic state. Give us a break.
I rarely need any Pakistani newspaper except Dawn and ET. Not sure if this "feels good" reading all the negative news about my former country
Read my post again. Indians tend to spend a lot of time in the comment sections of Dawn and ET to feel good.

I don't think by "toning down" would give me any more of an influence on these gullible Pakistanis. I used to be great friends with @TankMan and @syedali73 not so long ago during dharna-times. But not anymore. Our views regarding Islam, Israel and religion as a whole are so indifferent that toning down would only make the matter worse. Its best to let things come out as open as possible, IMO
''Toning down'' things and playing diplomacy on internet forums is pointless. Express your opinion fully. However, taking a self-righteous stand and labeling everyone that doesn't agree with you a ''Crazy Islamist Mullah'' is a surefire way of making sure that the people you are talking to will not agree with you, regardless of how right you may be.

By secularizing the state or education or condemning religion you would essentially be accepting that Islam is a violent religion - which means the terrorists and mullahs win. We're supposed to be doing the opposite of that. Going on wild-goose chases after ''secularism'' is an extremely myopic approach. Westerns systems can not directly apply to us. The same is true for Democracy - we will need to tailor it for our needs.

Pakistan is not America or Norway and will never be, for better or for worse.
 
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How is self-critique a form of inferiority complex? :D

He does not speak for us. He speaks for himself only!

Yes, not all Christians hate us, but we still hate all non-Muslims and their non-Islamic way of life. How's that? :D

You have NO Islamic knowledge. I suggest you read up on Islamic law (sharia), Biography of the Prophet (as'salaathu was'salaam) and then debate me.

And when they (who call themselves Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses. (Al-Maeda, 5:83)

It is reported that the King of Abyssinia, the Negus, sent a delegation to see the Prophet’s manners and characteristics. The Prophet recited some Quranic verses to them and the tears started coming out from their eyes.

There is. And believe or not, they are more than one, but sadly none of them forms a Muslim majority, unlucky for you :D

And are these countries Islamic? Listen, please read up on Sharia and then you'll know what you're talking about. Respectuly, you're making a fool of yourself. Let me repeat myself, there is NO ISLAMIC STATE on this planet!

How is enforced rehab as punishment for a very long number of years can even be considered "reward" for the criminals? What IQ do you have actually? :D
As I said, humiliating public punishments such as caning, flogging etc never fixed any criminal mind back to normal life.

The punishment doesn't fit the crime! Go and ask the victim of crime; relative of loved one who has been murdered, raped, etc and then come back and talk to me. Btw, the day this happens to you, remember your words! I've read many comments of victims from crime.

Yeah, of course. Jews hate us. All Non-Muslims hate us and vice versa. Keep hating Schmucks! :D

Strange expression! We are a strong nation and can defend ourselves from haters.
 
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If you want influence, you could start with reducing the immaturity of your comments and constantly saying things like ''gullible Pakistanis''. Look up the definition of gullible. The fact that we disagree with you instead of buying everything you say is the exact opposite of being gullible.
The reason why I call them gullible is not that they disagree with me. Its completely fine to disagree in a debate. I call them gullible because they most of the time refrain from debating with their own arguments. They instead use arguments that they learned from these semi-literate Mullahs, insteading of studying Islam independently, thus being gullible.

And what about all the terrorists that grew up in the Western secular system and were kept completely illiterate about religion and are now going to fight with ISIS because some mullah on the streets told them things about Islam and they had no idea how wrong those things were because nobody ever taught them about Islam?
Hogwash! See its exactly here we start to disagree as always. Its not that these Muslim children were raised any different than other non-Muslim children. Then how is that these Europeans who volunteer for war in Syria are exclusively of Muslim backgrounds? Children here are taught about all the great religions and their teachings all the way to 12th grade in Western education system. So why would you ever need a Mullah to tell you what Islam really is? It doesn't even make sense??? :D
Mosques in a Western society should be a place of worship. Nothing else. Instead our kids are brainwashed into doctrines of violent Jihad as most of these mosques are funded by foreign funds, notably Saudi Wahhabis. :D

It does not, in any way, discredit the idea of teaching people about religion to prevent radicalization.
Again, you are wrong. People don't usually get radicalized by learning "wrong" versions of Islam. They are radicalized because they cannot counter this extreme version's narrative. No matter how much of a peaceful version of Islam you teach them side-by-side, the more violent versions would still be appealing as they are politically more attractive than the peaceful ones which tend to be pacifist :)

See, this is some of that immaturity I was talking about. @Azad-Kashmiri makes a perfectly valid point about there not being any Islamic state in existence. And then you reply with some half-baked ''Economic Islamicity Index'' as proof that somehow Ireland is an Islamic state. Give us a break.
It depends on the definition of Islamic State. For me, Islamic State is any state that is governed by universal principles of Islam. And that is exactly what Islamicity index tried to measure in all countries presently. Sadly, today's majority Muslim states could not even fit in the first 10 according to that index. :D

Read my post again. Indians tend to spend a lot of time in the comment sections of Dawn and ET to feel good.
Since most Indians can't read Urdu, their only source of info on Pakistan is through our English newspapers :D Not sure if they comment just to feel "good" as India is nowhere in any better shape than Pakistan :D


''Toning down'' things and playing diplomacy on internet forums is pointless. Express your opinion fully.
Spot on! :)

Westerns systems can not directly apply to us. The same is true for Democracy - we will need to tailor it for our needs.
I have never called for to apply Western systems in Muslim majority countries. Sure every political system must be tailored/amended for local needs. There is no such thing as a perfect system that suits all kinds of nations anyway :D

It is reported that the King of Abyssinia, the Negus, sent a delegation to see the Prophet’s manners and characteristics. The Prophet recited some Quranic verses to them and the tears started coming out from their eyes.
And how is this in context with the topic on hand?

Let me repeat myself, there is NO ISLAMIC STATE on this planet!
It depends on the definition of an Islamic State. See my brief answer on this above.

The punishment doesn't fit the crime! Go and ask the victim of crime; relative of loved one whose been murdered, raped, etc and then come back and talk to me. Btw, the day this happens to you, remember your words! I've read many comments of victims from crime.
So what is the "just" punishment for killing 77 innocent children? Being hanged 77 times, being flogged 770 times, being caned 7700 times? Or is it being sent to rehab indefinitely until you are somewhat normal enough to become part of society again? :D

Strange expression!
Its a Jewish word, meaning fools :D
 
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I didn't blame anybody. Saudia is doing great with its enormous oil wealth, producing dozens of scientific breakthroughs and nobel prize winners each year. What an accomplishment! :D

Saudia is problem. It is the vector.


I rarely need any Pakistani newspaper except Dawn and ET. Not sure if this "feels good" reading all the negative news about my former country :D

I read Dawn but ii is too focussed on India - It could be a Indian newspaper. I was a big fan of Daily Times but since the change in editor ( post Salman Taseer demise ) it has gone down.


We have no Holocaust denial laws here in Norway. Most of the said laws were passed in EU countries and Israel:
Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have no idea why people bring this up for., We have bigger problems in Pakistan than worry about this. It reminds me of that stupid woman which became world wide drama because her coke can was open. 100s of Muslim's get killed in mosques in Pakistan like animals and the big headache is opened can of coke. Ever heard of saying "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly the speck in other person's eye".


Thanks. But lets be clear: Not all Muslims can be moulded this way despite being born and raised here all their lives. Today, second and even third generation of Norwegian Muslims tend to be more extreme, fundamental and jihadi than their parents. Reason for this being is that from their early childhood, they are sent to mosques, madrassas, islamic schools that are controlled by the very same bigoted Mullahs that destroyed our former homelands, such as Pakistan in the first place. And then we watch in confusion why so many of our European Muslim brothers are joining hands with Jihadis in Syria? It makes perfect sense when you have not developed any sense of belonging to your current country and you have been busy study "versions" of Islam that only preaches hatred for the non-Muslims and their way of life!

Of course your right there. It is the exact same thing here in UK. People call it "British Muslim" problem. The truth is it is nothing British about it. If you bring with you from your home country all the vices then you will just recreate the same problems in UK.

I have seen Somali areas in UK. Honestly they resemble Somalia 100%. Take away the roads, signs, the police and you have Somalia. They carry knives, machetes and gun culture is rife. They just recreated Somalia including female circumcision.

With Pakistani's the madaris that opened up employed imprted ignorent mullah's from Pakistan - the exact ones who have turned Pakistan into nightmare of killing Shia/Sunni/Wahabi/Ahmedi and all the rest. Well they have infected the same disease to the British Pakistani's. The only reason they have not gone further is because the British state is strong so will not tolerate a madaris becoming like Lal Masjid. Otherwise there would be Lal masjids here as well.

You know what the real sad part is. We emigrate from Pakistan to foreign countries. Clearly we have messed up Pakistan. clearly the way we are doing things is flawed. Yet we come abroad to countries which clearly have done better than us. Instead of learning from them we end up complaining about them and lecturing them. In other words we want to repeat more of what has failed.

If you say the prescription has failed ( Islamic state ) the stock answer is NO. They wil say the reason is there is no Islamic state in the world. In their calculus there has never been any Islamic state in the last 1,000 years. This is frustrating and intellectuel bankruptcy because according to that measure communism did not fail either. All the communists will say Soviet Union, China, Easter Europe were not communist. Cuba is not communist.

That way capitalism, communism, christianity or any other ism has never failed because their detractors will claim " they did not fail because they never were applied properly". This is a ridicalous excuse I hear often. Almost childish and beyond belief.

You come to me complaining of headache and I say do 10 press ups and you will be cured. You do it and your headache has got worse to which I reply you did not do the press ups properly. You do it again and it does not work to which I say you did not do it properly. 100s of people try my precription and it fails but I still refuse to accept their could be a problem with the prescription. Instead I insist the prescription is perfect only it's application is wrong.


I don't think by "toning down" would give me any more of an influence on these gullible Pakistanis. I used to be great friends with @TankMan and @syedali73 not so long ago during dharna-times. But not anymore. Our views regarding Islam, Israel and religion as a whole are so indifferent that toning down would only make the matter worse. Its best to let things come out as open as possible, IMO :)

Of course some are beyond redemption. I said 50 years plus? I read once the only constant is change and change comes through the generational renewal. The death, birth cycle and of course time. It will happen but it will take time.

Look around you the only non Europan country that stood up against the West and equalled it and earned respect was Japan. Check their history. In 1890s they changed Japan in few decades and by 1910 Tokyo looked like Europe. They copied the European lock stock and barrel. Did they cry about inferiority complex? No because they new that real inferiority is being coloinized, poor and weak. Take a look at Japan today. In the Muslim world which country proved to have the most pride?

It fought against Europeans as a equal. while we became slaves they fought. Today that country is Turkey. Have a look at Istanbul. Of all Muslim countries it is not a coincidence it is most similar to Europe. That is because the turks also recognized that change was needed like Japanese. They changed. Compare Istanbul with Karachi.

Norwegian Police is completely humane. You won't expect them using violence unless provoked violently first. Heck, even our army is neutralized into being just a peacekeeping "force" and nothing more. My brother is currently serving in the Norwegian army as a cadet. And what he tells me of their ethical policies, shocks even my own wild fantasies about pacifism :)

And bravo to that. That is what "civilized" means. Shooting humans like animals every day is not sign of civilized. It is sign of a sick society.


Agreed. Sometimes I wonder if there is such a thing as Western civilization. Last year two similar social experiments were conducted. One in Oslo and another in New York of a freezing, helpless child. The results of this is enough to shock you how different American "civilization" has become from the Norwegian one:

The American are still within the wider western civilization but clearly they have gone to the extreme right from the more left leaning social liberal north western Europe.



Yeh, I have heard about and been impressed by Hadia Tajik. These are examples of Pakistani's who make our people look good. I think the Pak Norweigians for their size have done relatively better than in other places.

In Arab countries, where all the current roots of violent versions of Islam can be traced, they never taught their children in institutions that are run by some semi-literate Mullahs. In fact, violent reactionary versions of Islam got their boost after Saudi oil wealth expansion. You expect people to believe that violent Jihadis like Bin Laden and other Arabs who arrived in Afghanistan for "Jihad" against Soviets were educated in some third world standard institutions? Nope. They studied in professional Islamic schools, that were funded by Saudi Education ministry :D

The real problem is Saudi funded salafi madaris and their spread everywhere. They have strangled Pakistan and no leader has the guts to do anything about it. Oil money is real power. Money, money in the rich man's world song by Abba comes to mind. It is that simple.

Osama Bin Laden profile: How a boy born into wealth and privilege became the world’s most wanted man - Mirror Online
So that's how the world's most wanted terrorist Jihadi was born and raised in immense wealth. Its really that simple.

Lot of the jihadi's in UK are also quite well off. Poverty is not the reason. It is the infection they catch at the madaris that turns them rabid,


How is self-critique a form of inferiority complex? :D

Self critique is another name of progress. It allows constant scrutiny of your society and therein lies the possibility of change. The British are the most ( no idea about Norweigians ) moaning, btchin, complaing people you can find. They find fault with everything but that keeps the officials on their toes and nothing is 'holy cow'. Everything is subject to dersion and criticism including the queen.

Inferiority complex is prsented by people not able to be critical of self because so weak is their resolve that they can't cope with any form of criticism. If you are secure, confident only than can you handle self criticism.

Thus being self critical is sign of superiority complex not the other way around. Being strong enables you cope with scrutiny. confident societies allow free debate andthere is no holy cows.
 
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The reason why I call them gullible is not that they disagree with me. Its completely fine to disagree in a debate. I call them gullible because they most of the time refrain from debating with their own arguments. They instead use arguments that they learned from these semi-literate Mullahs, insteading of studying Islam independently, thus being gullible.
Who is ''they'', exactly? You use the 'gullible' label on everybody. I do not follow any Mullah and all my knowledge of Islam is from independent study. @syedali73 sahib himself is very knowledgeable. Yet you call us gullible simply because we disagree with you.
Hogwash! See its exactly here we start to disagree as always. Its not that these Muslim children were raised any different than other non-Muslim children. Then how is that these Europeans who volunteer for war in Syria are exclusively of Muslim backgrounds?
When did I say that? Do you actually bother reading arguments before declaring it ''Hogwash'' with an exclamation mark? Do you realise that you come across as as emotional as some of the ''gullible'' Pakistanis you criticize?

Let me tell you how it is. People who are from Muslim backgrounds spend their lives hearing that Islam is good and true. But they are never taught of what Islam actually is. So all they know is Islam is good. Now, they hear some mullah spreading ideas that at first seem revolutionary: things about giving them a glorious purpose and a chance of fighting for Islam - something they have been taught is good and true. But because they lack knowledge of Islam, they do not know of any alternative interpretations or perspectives. They therefore fall prey to the brainwashing of said mullahs or recruiters.

Now, non-Muslims wouldn't have that problem since they wouldn't be interested in any of this in the first place. They wouldn't have been told that Islam is good and true. They would be almost completely ignorant. Yet still, many of the teenagers that went to Syria from the UK are white British non-Muslim wannabe teenage revolutionaries who converted to the ISIS brand of Islam. The terrorist ideology is powerful, there's no denying that.
Children here are taught about all the great religions and their teachings all the way to 12th grade in Western education system. So why would you ever need a Mullah to tell you what Islam really is? It doesn't even make sense???
Not in any detail. I've seen it first hand. I don't know about Norway but the religious education in the UK is severely lacking, except for maybe the Church Schools etc, which of course teach Christianity.

Nobody ever ''needs'' a mullah. It's the mullahs that approach people, or atleast let their presence be known through social media etc. People who do not know anything about Islam, do not know of a proper interpretation of Islam and have never touched the Quran themselves can be very easily led to believe anything.
Mosques in a Western society should be a place of worship. Nothing else. Instead our kids are brainwashed into doctrines of violent Jihad as most of these mosques are funded by foreign funds, notably Saudi Wahhabis.
Saudi Wahhabi funded violent Jihad indoctrination in Western mosques? Sadly a few exist. And sadly they are as bad as those in Pakistan.
Again, you are wrong. People don't usually get radicalized by learning "wrong" versions of Islam. They are radicalized because they cannot counter this extreme version's narrative.
I find it hilarious that you are saying I am wrong and then proceed to repeat my point exactly. People are radicalized because they can not counter the extreme version's narrative. Then why not give them a way to counter this extreme narrative?! That is exactly my argument! Maybe if you got off your self-righteous western holier than thou 'gullible Islamist Pakistanis' pedestal, you would be able to see that you and I are saying the exact same thing.

No matter how much of a peaceful version of Islam you teach them side-by-side, the more violent versions would still be appealing as they are politically more attractive than the peaceful ones which tend to be pacifist
Islam is not a pacifist religion. We need to teach a middle path, one that advocates justice instead of pacifism or extreme violence. That version of Islam is more politically attractive than the two extremes combined.

But it also depends on what people's political leanings are. To paraphrase Reza Aslan, ''If you are a violent person, your Islam, your Buddhism, your Christianity will be violent.''
It depends on the definition of Islamic State. For me, Islamic State is any state that is governed by universal principles of Islam. And that is exactly what Islamicity index tried to measure in all countries presently. Sadly, today's majority Muslim states could not even fit in the first 10 according to that index
True, today's Muslim countries are extremely far from being Islamic states. But that does not make abandoning Islam or portions of Islam a viable option because non-Muslim countries are higher on the 'Islamicity Index'.

So what is the "just" punishment for killing 77 innocent children? Being hanged 77 times, being flogged 770 times, being caned 7700 times? Or is it being sent to rehab indefinitely until you are somewhat normal enough to become part of society again?
This is one of the major flaws with modern Western justice. Rehabilitation is possible for thieves, drug dealers, gangsters and thugs, but there is no way in hell a mass-murderer is ever becoming normal enough to become a part of society.

There's a reason I say Western systems can never apply to us. Because if the punishment for mass-murder in, say, Pakistan was living in a room with great facilities and a PlayStation like what Brevik got, it would be worse than having no punishment at all. Potential criminals would have absolutely nothing left to deter them.

Deterrence is an essential part of punishment. Simply having a punishment as severe as the death penalty or flogging would deter people. That's also the essence of Islamic Law, to have punishments severe so that you don't have to apply them in the first place.

You can not rehabilitate a murderer. The just punishment would be death. Sets an example, doesn't burden the state, prevents the criminal from committing the crime again.
The real problem is Saudi funded salafi madaris
It's interesting, because on one hand blind taqleed is a problem and on the other extreme Salafism (or ''Wahhabism'') is just as big of a problem. In case of polarization, it is almost certain that both the poles are wrong.

Not sure if they comment just to feel "good" as India is nowhere in any better shape than Pakistan
They comment just to feel good since most of their comments are either ''Oh you evil Pakistanis are oppressing your minorities'', ''evil Pakistan Army needs to learn from the world's biggest democracy'' - nauseating.
 
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@TankMan Bhai there is no end in sight of this debate. Some of those who you are trying to argue with have already decided that Islam is the root cause of all social and moral ills and hence must be sacked for good. Now no matter how much you argue with them, you'll yield nothing except name calling. What Mullah say or what they don't is irrelevant, for the book of Allah is still with us. Why not read it? Why not get to learn Islam first hand instead of getting it in bits and pieces and in twisted forms through sectarian neem-Mullah?

Arabic is not a dead language, learn it, and then read Quran so it could be understood properly. Hell, the Jews revived Hebrew language out of dead, cant we only learn Arabic that is well and alive and thriving? My question to those who are arguing with you is, why don't they learn Islam and show us how it should look like and how it should be practiced? Why do they not make effort to understand Islam in its correct form and lead by example? Is it because ridiculing Mullah and Islam is far too convenient than making effort of learning and practicing it? Looks like that to me.

See what was happening in the Malaysian athlete thread? Clear instructions are given in Quran on the dress code but somebody will pay heed to those instruction only if he/she believes in Quran in the first place. You cant convince a non-believer to believe in something that he/she does not recognize at all. Are you getting my brother what I am saying? You have done your part and leave the rest on Allah. In surah Al-Kahaf, Allah addressed to Mohammed (PBUH) in these words:

Capture.JPG


Then perhaps you would kill yourself through grief over them, [O Muhammad], if they do not believe in this message, [and] out of sorrow. Surah Al-Khaf 18:6

I swear upon Allah, I am worst kind of a Muslim, non-practicing, faasiq and faajir, but albeit of who I am and what I am, I dare not to challenge what is in Quran. Not following Islamic teachings is one thing, ridiculing them is quite another.
 
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90s account of Pakistan? Where did you read that?
Dont worry, its an ostrich syndrome, such ppl consider it safe to bury their head in the sand.
It is a known fact world over that Pakistan is waging a war with itself, one should really be blind and deaf not see and understand it.

Norwegian said:
The fact that a minister had to recently retract an honest observation, in fear of violent reprisal, uttered in candid good faith against a madrassa system that many legitimately regard as the principal cause of our militant malaise is evidence of how some of the NAP’s proposals remain nice-sounding jingles, powerful on paper but impotent in practice. But to criticise the state for failing to speedily implement the NAP is part of a larger problem
You know what?
On this forum there many sane members who speak out the truth, but they are emotionally blackmailed into silence by few extremists members. Its these extremists who refuse to see reality, and live in a hologram world.
I respect the members who give a dime to the emotional blackmailers and speak the truth, only to earn brickbats and their patriotism questioned. It takes a lot of courage to do so. The author of this article is one such person.
 
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Wallahi ya habibi you are a confused soul-
So you post the article started from Pakistan then blamed sharia then saudi arabia then flogging then beheading then monarchy- now Muslims the self appointed ones-
What are you on?- Aftari nai hue abhi?-
He is a confused kid.


Monarchy is not from Islam, but ISIS Caliphate is since they have no monarchy? Who to believe? :D
ISIS Caliphate any European or American should be last to speak about current blood shed in ME becue grand daddy of Mirza Uk created Israel thus bringing in no stop misery and blood shed for Arabs while your Uncle SAM destroyed Saddam Government trough proper planning and then made ISIS her successor.
 
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It depends on the definition of Islamic State. For me, Islamic State is any state that is governed by universal principles of Islam. And that is exactly what Islamicity index tried to measure in all countries presently. Sadly, today's majority Muslim states could not even fit in the first 10 according to that index. :D

No, it's not a ''question'' of definition. It is not my definition or yours, it is defined by Islamic scholars. You've mentioned ISIS on number of occasions and they're NOT Islamic according to 120 Islamic scholars. The link below is heavy on theological evidences about the un-Islamic nature of ISIS.

SUMMARY
  1. It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an—or part of a verse—to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas , and one cannot ‘cherry-pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith .
  2. It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.
  3. It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.
  4. It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.
  5. It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.
  6. It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.
  7. It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.
  8. Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.
  9. It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.
  10. It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.
  11. It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.
  12. The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.
  13. It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.
  14. It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.
  15. It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.
  16. It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud ) without following the correct procedures that ensure justice and mercy.
  17. It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.
  18. It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.
  19. It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God ﷻ.
  20. It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.
  21. Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler and not allowing people to pray.
  22. It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.
  23. Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.
  24. After the death of the Prophet ﷺ , Islam does not require anyone to emigrate anywhere.

Letter to Baghdadi - Open Letter to BaghdadiOpen Letter to Baghdadi
 
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Not in any detail. I've seen it first hand. I don't know about Norway but the religious education in the UK is severely lacking, except for maybe the Church Schools etc, which of course teach Christianity.
Yes. I read from news that Islamists even tried to infiltrate government run public schools in UK last year with a bit of success which were massively exposed by the liberal media, thus ending their illegal 'dawa' operations :D
Operation Trojan Horse refers to an organised attempt by a number of associated individuals to introduce an Islamist or Salafist ethos into several schools in Birmingham, England.[1][2][3] The name, based on the Greek legend, comes from a leaked letter of questionable authenticity discovered in March 2014, alleged to be from Birmingham Islamists detailing how to wrest control of a school and speculating about expanding the scheme to other cities. Around a month later, Birmingham City Council said that it had received "hundreds" of allegations of plots similar to those illustrated in the letter, some dating back over 20 years.[4] Tahir Alam, the chairman of the Park View Educational Trust which runs six schools in Birmingham, was found to have written a 72-page document for the Muslim Council of Britain in 2007 detailing a blueprint for the "Islamisation" of secular state schools.[5][6]
Operation Trojan Horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If this the future of secular public education in UK, it would take just a few more years before it resembles worse than Pakistan :D :D :D

But it also depends on what people's political leanings are. To paraphrase Reza Aslan, ''If you are a violent person, your Islam, your Buddhism, your Christianity will be violent.''
Ahh, I get you are a big fan of Reza Aslan. He is my favourite too :D :D :D

This is one of the major flaws with modern Western justice. Rehabilitation is possible for thieves, drug dealers, gangsters and thugs, but there is no way in hell a mass-murderer is ever becoming normal enough to become a part of society.
A mass-murderer can be cured as well. Breivik is treated by world renowned psychologists and psychiatrists for his delusions that Muslims are taking over Europe in year 2083. Nothing is impossible to cure, not even wild conspiracy theories :D :D :D

There's a reason I say Western systems can never apply to us. Because if the punishment for mass-murder in, say, Pakistan was living in a room with great facilities and a PlayStation like what Brevik got, it would be worse than having no punishment at all. Potential criminals would have absolutely nothing left to deter them.
Is this why we have one of the lowest crime rates in Europe? Because our criminals are provided with 5-star treatment in jails? Seriously, your above statement was nothing but a big joke! :D :D :D
Your idea of deterrence against crimes come from a backward mentality that a human refrains from committing crimes because of "fear" for severe punishments. I tell you, this is entirely not the case here. Oddly enough, murder is not considered the worst punishable crime here as various types of sexual assaults. You can be forcibly castrated, sentenced to 21 years in prison without parole if you are convicted of sexual abuse of minors. Yet, it does not stop people from abusing children as fear is not the best deterrence against crime.

Deterrence is an essential part of punishment. Simply having a punishment as severe as the death penalty or flogging would deter people. That's also the essence of Islamic Law, to have punishments severe so that you don't have to apply them in the first place.
Death penalties deter nothing. It's been tried and tested for centuries, not only in Muslim countries but also in crime heavens such as US. Furthermore it takes any opportunity from the offender to repent from his past crimes and start a new life after serving his due sentence.
Again, fear of flogging, caning, amputations etc etc is not an effective deterrent. People with criminal minds would do them no matter the consequences. It's quite evident from recent history that crime rate goes down not by enforcing more stricter laws, but by making a more fairer society.
Back in the 70's and until 80's armed robberies were quite common in Norway. Then, the state adopted policies for more equal income distribution, leading to a better egalitarian society and now we have virtually no robberies here in Norway. :D :D :D
So the only deterrent against crime is to make society as just and fair as possible. Then criminals would need no need to do petty crimes just in order to survive :D :D :D

You can not rehabilitate a murderer. The just punishment would be death. Sets an example, doesn't burden the state, prevents the criminal from committing the crime again.
Since the mayhem caused by that lone-wolf Breivik, we have seen no more similar cases. We could of course make an example out of him by execution in public. But this would only make his like-minded people more radical and determined to carry out more acts of terror for their "motherland" in revenge! :D :D :D
The Norwegian system of justice is not based on tit-for-tat. An eye for an eye ancient mentality of revenge. Its barbaric and reveals no difference between the offender and the prosecuting state. Sure the parents who lost their children in mass murder would wish nothing but execution in public for the perpetrator of such crimes against humanity. But as they already know, it would only cause more problems than solving them :D :D :D Breivik must stay alive and be "proven" wrong in 2083 for his Islamophobic paranoia, instead of being executed as "deterrence" in 2015 already! :D :D :D

Not following Islamic teachings is one thing, ridiculing them is quite another.
I am questioning implementation of Shariah in current modern world out of mere curiosity as a Muslim. I have no desire or wishes to ridicule Islamic teachings in any way!!!

It is not my definition or yours, it is defined by Islamic scholars.
So by your very definition, a state only becomes Islamic, when a majority of Islamic scholars agree on it? If so, then Islamic Republic of Iran since 1979 has been an Islamic State as a majority of their Shiite scholars agree on it. How many Sunni scholars would agree that Iran is a true Islamic State? Hardly anyone :D
@Serpentine @haman10 @SOHEIL
 
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@TankMan Bhai there is no end in sight of this debate. Some of those who you are trying to argue with have already decided that Islam is the root cause of all social and moral ills and hence must be sacked for good. Now no matter how much you argue with them, you'll yield nothing except name calling. What Mullah say or what they don't is irrelevant, for the book of Allah is still with us. Why not read it? Why not get to learn Islam first hand instead of getting it in bits and pieces and in twisted forms through sectarian neem-Mullah?

Arabic is not a dead language, learn it, and then read Quran so it could be understood properly. Hell, the Jews revived Hebrew language out of dead, cant we only learn Arabic that is well and alive and thriving? My question to those who are arguing with you is, why don't they learn Islam and show us how it should look like and how it should be practiced? Why do they not make effort to understand Islam in its correct form and lead by example? Is it because ridiculing Mullah and Islam is far too convenient than making effort of learning and practicing it? Looks like that to me.

See what was happening in the Malaysian athlete thread? Clear instructions are given in Quran on the dress code but somebody will pay heed to those instruction only if he/she believes in Quran in the first place. You cant convince a non-believer to believe in something that he/she does not recognize at all. Are you getting my brother what I am saying? You have done your part and leave the rest on Allah. In surah Al-Kahaf, Allah addressed to Mohammed (PBUH) in these words:

View attachment 231556

Then perhaps you would kill yourself through grief over them, [O Muhammad], if they do not believe in this message, [and] out of sorrow. Surah Al-Khaf 18:6

I swear upon Allah, I am worst kind of a Muslim, non-practicing, faasiq and faajir, but albeit of who I am and what I am, I dare not to challenge what is in Quran. Not following Islamic teachings is one thing, ridiculing them is quite another.
Excellent argument sir,
Indeed you and @TankMan made my day.The problem is not related with Islam.The problem is related with the manipulation of verses and their wrong meanings being done by so called peudo mullahs.

How manipulation is done?
It is done at three levels:
A)Either religious texts are manipulated
B)Translation is manipulated
C)Tafseer is manipulated

In other abrahamic religions,mainly first two tragedies have taken place.However, in our case ,the third case was observed as a consequence of which we are observing extremist versions of peudo-Islam ,introduced by these funded master minds.
I do not understand that why on earth few mindsets are blaming Islam as whole for recent tragedy?
The outcome appears more as a product of bad politics and horrible geopolitical game of tribal warfare while labeling it with religion ,lol
It is just like analogy that I place salt in a jar which is being labelled with sugar,and when someone adds it up to tea,he or she claims that sugar tastes horrible, albeit there was no sugar in a jar at all :lol:
Hence,to motivate ill-informed public you can manipulate any of the following component:

Quranic versus in arabic--->meaning of verses ---> interpretation of verses.

What is more interesting is that we have seen such set examples in other religions too.No body talks about Hindu extremism, Jewish extremism, the famous crusade wars etc.Hence,I believe that the only and ultimate solution is:
-Improvement of education system
-Introduction of school system at mardrassah
-Establishing proper test system and degree system to run mosques etc

Regards
 
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