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The enemy within!

My problem with columns like these is that they shift all the guilt on every Pakistani citizen yet offer absolutely no solution. It's akin to hitting yourself over the head for existing. What's the point in crying ''oh we Pakistanis are so hypocritical'' and so on?

''Contradictions and double-speak'' is just an emotive way of saying that we are divided in our opinions.

Such articles have become too popular, and at this point people write them daily for people to read them and agree with them - yet they offer no solution, no practical outlooks, and absolutely nothing except for demoralization.

Yes, Pakistani public opinion is divided. Yes, politicians are hypocrites. Yes, radicalisation is a problem. We hear this every day. What should we do, mass-suicide? None of these people sitting abroad and criticizing the Pakistani population ever offers any solutions. Every day someone writes an article like this on The Express Tribune or Dawn. This includes the obligatory rant about how hypocritical Pakistanis are about international affairs - even though said rants are usually full of exaggerations or flat-out lies.


Not true. I've heard Pakistanis in Pakistan cry about how much zulm the Syrians are doing on their own people a lot.
But then, how would someone based in New Jersey know?

''We condemn radicalism only when it hurts us.'' What a load of nonsense. This line is extremely overused and extremely senseless. What is this supposed to even mean? Of course we'll be more vocal and emotional when radicalism hurts us. But that doesn't mean we don't condemn it when it hurts other people.We condemn it in general, but it becomes more relevant to us when it directly affects us. Human nature.

The Americans cried their eyes out for fourteen years when a few thousand of them were killed by radicalism but they were not as vocal when the radicals their own foreign policy spawned in Afghanistan destroyed that state, or when they destroyed the state of Iraq. That is not to say there wasn't widespread condemnation of the war, but it obviously wasn't as vehement as that of 9/11.

That is human nature. We are more upset when things directly affect us. To put all the blame on Pakistanis for that is frankly nothing more than stupid.

Another one of those senseless lines. We want effective law enforcement and we want it to be uniform and apply to the rich and power as much as they apply to the poor and weak. There is no Pakistani who says ''I want effective law enforcement but it shouldn't apply to me'', except for certain politicians who have been having verbal diarrhea over the actions of Law Enforcement Agencies recently. (Zardari and Altaf)


The reason normal people resort to bribery is because sometimes it is impossible to get things done without it. People resort to bribery because of the corruption in the system, not the other way around: the system is not corrupt because all Pakistanis are somehow born corrupt.

I have never heard a politician begrudging the citizenry for brain drain.

Beating ourselves over the head has become a new trend nowadays. But it is nothing short of demoralizing and pointless. Yes, we have our flaws. Let's focus on how we'll overcome them instead of just repeating how flawed we are over and over again.
Interestingly, such bullshit is not posted in Urdu print media, the mainstream media, which majority of Pakistani read and understand. These author know that their pieces of craps will be rejected out rightly so they write for a very select, very small readership that in no way represents Pakistan or its public, however influential at government level.
 
Yes, this English newspaper is a big disappointment for self-appointed "righteous" Muslims :D
Wallahi ya habibi you are a confused soul-
So you post the article started from Pakistan then blamed sharia then saudi arabia then flogging then beheading then monarchy- now Muslims the self appointed ones-
What are you on?- Aftari nai hue abhi?-
 
Interestingly, such bullshit is not posted in Urdu print media, the mainstream media, which majority of Pakistani read and understand. These author know that their pieces of craps will be rejected out rightly so they write for a very select, very small readership that in no way represents Pakistan or its public, however influential at government level.
True.

It is almost exclusively made for the consumption of the self-righteous liberal elite so that they can feel reassured of their superiority to less privileged Pakistanis who do not speak English and couldn't read these articles even if they wanted to. In addition to, of course, some expatriates and the Indians that tend to spend a long time on Pakistani English news websites just to feel good.
 
Wallahi ya habibi you are a confused soul-
So you post the article started from Pakistan then blamed sharia then saudi arabia then flogging then beheading then monarchy- now Muslims the self appointed ones-
What are you on?- Aftari nai hue abhi?-
Sorry about the Saudi bit...I prob dragged it :ashamed:
 
Oh you're another Indian hiding behind a fake avatar and name. Holocaust is a Christendom problem! They caused it and watched by and allowed it to happen! It is NOT part of our religion and neither do we have any guilt! So go and peddle your mumbo-jumbo somewhere else!
Bhai jaan he is sitting in Europe if he says any thing against holocaust or the jews for that matter he could be persecuted but in a humane way- may be deported - so try to be in his shoes for a sec- he simply just cant be honest even for a second -

Sorry about the Saudi bit...I prob dragged it :ashamed:
Why iz u always de culprit behind the off topic dragging?-
Btw how dare you dragged saudi?- :lol:-
 
I've read that before and disagree with your points about religion but applaud the fact that you offered some solutions.

Removing religious studies entirely would make people, especially youngsters, more vulnerable to radicalization since they won't know what their religion actually teaches and are therefore more liable to be persuaded into terrorism by mullahs.
Mullahcracy and Islam are two different things. I am clueless as to why people cant differentiate between the two. Problem is not the religion or its teachings, problem are those who have made religion a profession and abuse it to further their vicious agenda. Teaching people Islam in state -run or modern education institutions by qualified teachers/scholars is far more safe and effective than getting this knowledge from some neem-Mullah of a Madrassah. I believe this is where we went wrong. We have left the interpretation and teaching of Islam on semi- or illiterate Mullah and the result is in front of us. There is no doubt that a majority of mosques, I dare to say up to 99%, and so-called madrassah teach very sectarian -specific Islam that is indeed destroying our society. As a result, two groups are being born: a. Those who hate Islam and b. those who blindly follow sectarian interpretation of Islam.
 
@Norwegian I share almost all your sentiments, indeed lot of your views are admirable. The problem is my friend you have been developed into a progressive human being thanks to Norway, a country probably at the top of the totem pole in the world in terms of social equity, progress and fairness. Consider yourself lucky. It has been interesting for me in observing your posts to see how Norway has moulded you.

As I suspected it has has had positive and profound effect on you. Now there is downside to this. I know your in 2015 and so is Pakistan. However the reality both you and your country of origin exist on two differance points on the time continuum. To put it bluntly your about 50 years if not more ahead of your country of origin. Thus I strongly suggest to get traction around here tone down your views so that you can have some influence became some is better than non. That way you might walk away having made some minds around here rethink their take on the world.

On another matter I was watching a video on crime in Norway and was pleasantly surprised it is actually even better than UK. The Norweigian Police officer had pulled his gun once in 5 years and just 3 shots had been fired in anger .....

That is what I call "civilization" ...


I might visit Norway sometime. Do tell us in another thread about life in Norway and Pak Norweigians ...
 
Mullahcracy and Islam are two different things. I am clueless as to why people cant differentiate between the two. Problem is not the religion or its teachings, problem are those who have made religion a profession and abuse it to further their vicious agenda. Teaching people Islam in state -run or modern education institutions by qualified teachers/scholars is far more safe and effective than getting this knowledge from some neem-Mullah of a Madrassah. I believe this is where we went wrong. We have left the interpretation and teaching of Islam on semi- or illiterate Mullah and the result is in front of us. There is no doubt that a majority of mosques, I dare to say up to 99%, and so-called madrassah teach very sectarian -specific Islam that is indeed destroying our society. As a result, two groups are being born: a. Those who hate Islam and b. those who blindly follow sectarian interpretation of Islam
Indeed. This polarization is extremely dangerous.

Reminds me of Imran Khan's article, 'Selective Islam'.
One of the problems facing Pakistan is the polarisation of two reactionary groups. On the one side is the westernised group that looks upon Islam through western eyes and has inadequate knowledge about the subject. It reacts to any one trying to impose Islam in the society and wants only a selective part of the religion. On the other extreme is the group that reacts to this westernised elite and in trying to become a defender of the faith, takes up such intolerant and self-righteous attitudes that are repugnant to the spirit of Islam.
Selective Islam ~ An article by Imran Khan (1998) - My Bit for Change - My Bit for Change

As for solving the issue, I agree with your idea of teaching people Islam in state-run, modern education institutions with qualified teachers and scholars. I have been advocating that myself, a lot. Unfortunately, many myopic secular reactionaries would rather remove religion from the curriculum entirely.
 
The article is full of anti-Islamic hate.
Sure, all valid criticism of Pakistani society is automatically branded anti-Islamic "hate" :D

We are a Muslim country and PROUD Muslims
Okay, then stop demonstrating violently in your home country when some idiot draws cartoons of the Holy Prophet here in the West. After all these people here are equally "proud" of their drawings :D :D :D

The Saudi blogger got away with insulting Islam!
Got away? When? :D

@Norwegian since the women is beheaded in Saudi Arabia then she must be innocent- every person beheaded in saudi arabia is innocent- what a rational understanding - to some people saulat mirza was innocent - bullsh!t is strong in these cases -
Who said anything about her innocence? That article put "innocent" in apostrophe meaning they were unsure if she was guilty or not!

Firstly go and read up on what is Sharia. You have NO idea what you're talking about! Monarchy is NOT from Islam! And that is even before I start talking about the legal system.
Monarchy is not from Islam, but ISIS Caliphate is since they have no monarchy? Who to believe? :D

There was proof against her!
Good execution then! :)

Wow habibi ya akhoi al mohtaram freedom of speech is denied in both cases yet you have problem with the saudi way?-
Its not "freedom of speech" to deny a well-established fact. Why would you deny something that's been proven over and over again by hundreds and thousands of Holocaust survivors, unless you want a provocation?

Not true. I've heard Pakistanis in Pakistan cry about how much zulm the Syrians are doing on their own people a lot.
But then, how would someone based in New Jersey know?
Maybe people read News in New Jersey unlike Pakistanis? :D
Syria death toll now exceeds 210,000: rights group
Syria death toll now exceeds 210,000: rights group| Reuters

That is human nature. We are more upset when things directly affect us. To put all the blame on Pakistanis for that is frankly nothing more than stupid.
He is not putting ALL blame on Pakistanis, but also on their corrupt hypocrite leaders :D

Beating ourselves over the head has become a new trend nowadays. But it is nothing short of demoralizing and pointless. Yes, we have our flaws. Let's focus on how we'll overcome them instead of just repeating how flawed we are over and over again.
Well said!

Punishment of whatever sort is an humiliation. Don't you even understand that?
With a distorted view on punishment like yours, its not strange why you people are still living in a backward society. The use of punishment for the guilty's rehabilitation has been a norm here for decades. Humiliation never "fixed" any criminal back to normal life :D

What started? The flogging or beheading?
If there is a law to flog or behead somewhere why it bother you so much?-
I mean every country has some stupid or cruel laws- i believe a 5 star accommodation for a murder or rapist on citizen taxes is so much cruel to the victims and their families?-
Lets take a stand on that together - what say?-
lets start from home- :lol:-
That psychopath was put in 5 star accommodation for rehab. Beheading him in the streets of Oslo would have solved nothing and would only give birth to more similar minded freaks :D

But people like you deny the torture on Palestinians just coz you hate Arabs - very racist behaviour if you ask me....Must we wait for a holocaust before we put a punishment?
I hate Arabs? Where did I say that, strawman? :D

Oh you're another Indian hiding behind a fake avatar and name.
Oh, no. Not this I am an Indian all over again Yehudi Sazish :D. شرم مگر تم کو نہیں آتی!

Removing religious studies entirely would make people, especially youngsters, more vulnerable to radicalization since they won't know what their religion actually teaches and are therefore more liable to be persuaded into terrorism by mullahs.
Agreed.
 
Maybe people read News in New Jersey unlike Pakistanis?
Read my statement again. Of course he would know about Syria. What I said was that he wouldn't know the reactions of Pakistanis if he hasn't lived among Pakistanis for years.
He is not putting ALL blame on Pakistanis, but also on their corrupt hypocrite leaders
Calling those thieves and looters 'leaders' is an insult to the word itself.
Monarchy is not from Islam, but ISIS Caliphate is since they have no monarchy? Who to believe?
Come on. Opposing Monarchy means supporting ISIS? How does one arrive at that conclusion? You are free to disagree with him, but least don't twist @Azad-Kashmiri 's words.
I'm glad you understand.
 
Okay, then stop demonstrating violently in your home country when some idiot draws cartoons of the Holy Prophet here in the West. After all these people here are equally "proud" of their drawings :D :D :D

Sure they are! Tell that to the mad dog who fired his ''artist'' when he drew a Jew and was called an anti-semite in France! Most of the anti-Muslim groups are financed and supported by the Zionists. Do some research and let me know if you get stuck and I'll give you the evidence!

Not ALL Christians hate us The Prophet (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), sent the companions to Abbassinyya when the Idol worshipers wanted to kill us. This was Christian monarchy.

Monarchy is not from Islam, but ISIS Caliphate is since they have no monarchy? Who to believe? :D

There is NO Islamic State on this planet. Believe or not, the onus is on you to find out about the truth!

With a distorted view on punishment like yours, its not strange why you people are still living in a backward society. The use of punishment for the guilty's rehabilitation has been a norm here for decades. Humiliation never "fixed" any criminal back to normal life :D

Go and try to rehabilitate the re offenders and don't complain when they keep doing it again! Murder, rape, highway robbery, etc are serious crimes. It shows you don't give justice to the victims and reward the criminals!

Oh, no. Not this I am an Indian all over again Yehudi Sazish :D. شرم مگر تم کو نہیں آتی!

Actually, NO! Allah tells us not ALL (People of the book) Jews hate us. It is the Zionists who hate us. People like Albert Pike do!

I said you're an Indian because you mentioned some irrelevant incident that may or may not have taken place amongst Muslims and Hindus in the past. However, you conveniently forgot about Muslims massacred, raped at the hand of Hindus, Sikhs in India.
 
Interestingly, such bullshit is not posted in Urdu print media, the mainstream media, which majority of Pakistani read and understand. These author know that their pieces of craps will be rejected out rightly so they write for a very select, very small readership that in no way represents Pakistan or its public, however influential at government level.
Sure. Such BS can only be viewed by adults with IQ above 95 at least. Most Urdu readers have difficulties comprehending such Western nonsense so its rejected outright by the editors :D

So you post the article started from Pakistan then blamed sharia then saudi arabia then flogging then beheading then monarchy- now Muslims the self appointed ones-
I didn't blame anybody. Saudia is doing great with its enormous oil wealth, producing dozens of scientific breakthroughs and nobel prize winners each year. What an accomplishment! :D

In addition to, of course, some expatriates and the Indians that tend to spend a long time on Pakistani English news websites just to feel good.
I rarely need any Pakistani newspaper except Dawn and ET. Not sure if this "feels good" reading all the negative news about my former country :D

Bhai jaan he is sitting in Europe if he says any thing against holocaust or the jews for that matter he could be persecuted but in a humane way- may be deported - so try to be in his shoes for a sec- he simply just cant be honest even for a second -
We have no Holocaust denial laws here in Norway. Most of the said laws were passed in EU countries and Israel:
Countries_with_laws_against_Holocaust_denial.png


Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe this is where we went wrong. We have left the interpretation and teaching of Islam on semi- or illiterate Mullah and the result is in front of us. There is no doubt that a majority of mosques, I dare to say up to 99%, and so-called madrassah teach very sectarian -specific Islam that is indeed destroying our society. As a result, two groups are being born: a. Those who hate Islam and b. those who blindly follow sectarian interpretation of Islam.
Very well said! Applauded! :)

@Norwegian I share almost all your sentiments, indeed lot of your views are admirable. The problem is my friend you have been developed into a progressive human being thanks to Norway, a country probably at the top of the totem pole in the world in terms of social equity, progress and fairness. Consider yourself lucky. It has been interesting for me in observing your posts to see how Norway has moulded you.
Thanks. But lets be clear: Not all Muslims can be moulded this way despite being born and raised here all their lives. Today, second and even third generation of Norwegian Muslims tend to be more extreme, fundamental and jihadi than their parents. Reason for this being is that from their early childhood, they are sent to mosques, madrassas, islamic schools that are controlled by the very same bigoted Mullahs that destroyed our former homelands, such as Pakistan in the first place. And then we watch in confusion why so many of our European Muslim brothers are joining hands with Jihadis in Syria? It makes perfect sense when you have not developed any sense of belonging to your current country and you have been busy study "versions" of Islam that only preaches hatred for the non-Muslims and their way of life!

As I suspected it has has had positive and profound effect on you. Now there is downside to this. I know your in 2015 and so is Pakistan. However the reality both you and your country of origin exist on two differance points on the time continuum. To put it bluntly your about 50 years if not more ahead of your country of origin. Thus I strongly suggest to get traction around here tone down your views so that you can have some influence became some is better than non. That way you might walk away having made some minds around here rethink their take on the world.
I don't think by "toning down" would give me any more of an influence on these gullible Pakistanis. I used to be great friends with @TankMan and @syedali73 not so long ago during dharna-times. But not anymore. Our views regarding Islam, Israel and religion as a whole are so indifferent that toning down would only make the matter worse. Its best to let things come out as open as possible, IMO :)

On another matter I was watching a video on crime in Norway and was pleasantly surprised it is actually even better than UK. The Norweigian Police officer had pulled his gun once in 5 years and just 3 shots had been fired in anger .....
Norwegian Police is completely humane. You won't expect them using violence unless provoked violently first. Heck, even our army is neutralized into being just a peacekeeping "force" and nothing more. My brother is currently serving in the Norwegian army as a cadet. And what he tells me of their ethical policies, shocks even my own wild fantasies about pacifism :)

That is what I call "civilization" ...
Agreed. Sometimes I wonder if there is such a thing as Western civilization. Last year two similar social experiments were conducted. One in Oslo and another in New York of a freezing, helpless child. The results of this is enough to shock you how different American "civilization" has become from the Norwegian one:

I might visit Norway sometime. Do tell us in another thread about life in Norway and Pak Norweigians ...
For starters:
Norwegians with Pakistani background - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for solving the issue, I agree with your idea of teaching people Islam in state-run, modern education institutions with qualified teachers and scholars.
In Arab countries, where all the current roots of violent versions of Islam can be traced, they never taught their children in institutions that are run by some semi-literate Mullahs. In fact, violent reactionary versions of Islam got their boost after Saudi oil wealth expansion. You expect people to believe that violent Jihadis like Bin Laden and other Arabs who arrived in Afghanistan for "Jihad" against Soviets were educated in some third world standard institutions? Nope. They studied in professional Islamic schools, that were funded by Saudi Education ministry :D
In 1968, when he was 11, his father was killed in a plane crash. Bin Laden’s share of Mohammed’s vast fortune was significantly less than the reported £180million, but it was still a treasure chest that helped fund decades of fighting.

From the age of 13, bin Laden attended the prestigious Al-Thager Model School, in Jeddah – one teacher recalled him as a tall, polite pupil. Later he went to the King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah.

But in his teens he became drawn to Islam. His father’s firm won contracts to rebuild the Mecca and Medina mosques. And unlike his brothers, who went to the West for their education, he stayed in Saudi where universities welcomed radical Islamists – including the Muslim Brotherhood – on to the teaching staff.

These radical teachers told the teenager that Islam had to be strictly adhered to in order to protect against the corruption of the West.

It was a lesson that bin Laden – brought up in luxury and decadence – embraced, and he joined the Brotherhood.

University friend Jamal Khalifa said they spent their time studying and not watching films or listening to music as it was against the teachings of the Koran.
Osama Bin Laden profile: How a boy born into wealth and privilege became the world’s most wanted man - Mirror Online

So that's how the world's most wanted terrorist Jihadi was born and raised in immense wealth. Its really that simple.

We don't take lessons from those who suffer from inferiority complex!
How is self-critique a form of inferiority complex? :D

Not ALL Christians hate us The Prophet (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), sent the companions to Abbassinyya when the Idol worshipers wanted to kill us. This was Christian monarchy.
Yes, not all Christians hate us, but we still hate all non-Muslims and their non-Islamic way of life. How's that? :D

There is NO Islamic State on this planet. Believe or not, the onus is on you to read up and find out about the truth!
There is. And believe or not, they are more than one, but sadly none of them forms a Muslim majority, unlucky for you :D
b558.gif

http://hossein-askari.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/islamicity-index.pdf

Murder, rape, highway robbery, etc are serious crimes. It shows you don't give justice to the victims and reward the criminals!
How is enforced rehab as punishment for a very long number of years can even be considered "reward" for the criminals? What IQ do you have actually? :D
As I said, humiliating public punishments such as caning, flogging etc never fixed any criminal mind back to normal life.

Actually, NO! Allah tells us not ALL (People of the book) Jews hate us.
Yeah, of course. Jews hate us. All Non-Muslims hate us and vice versa. Keep hating Schmucks! :D
 

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