The dragon gets a bear hug

[ptldM3]

Chest thumping is you. Engine technology is not everything. That is yr wishful view too.

I never said engine technology was everything I stated that if a country is able to produce successful engines then other defense sectors will have success since engine technology includes everything from material science to electronics and successful mastering of those fields and many others transfers over to other projects.

So by your theory, MIG-25 fitted with 2 AL-41 will turn invincible? HAHAHA...

Go back and read what I stated before or better you look at the above explanation, no such ignorance was ever implied.

You are ignoring other areas of critical technology like manufacturing tech and areas of electronic sector.

No, you have difficulty reading. I mentions those exact things. Here is my quote:

Engine technology is arguable the most difficult technology to master because of the various fields involved which includes metallurgy, advanced allows, crystal blade technology, electronic, engineering, manufacture, and many other fields which includes innovation. So if China is so much more advanced in technology and research as you claim then why after so many years is Chinese engine development lagging even though the Chinese have foreign engines to copy?

Look at your PAFKA, which is totally unstealthy and like a crap. So this product is suppose to represent the best of Russian aviation design and manufacturing tech?

Typical Chinese attitude, I did not know that random Chinese on a Pakistani forum suddenly became experts in low observable aircraft. There are a number of Chinese that have said the same thing and when challenged with sources and real physics their arguments full a parts. Typical Chinese mentality-- 'the pak-fa is crap because of the IRST', while the Chinese disregard the rounded underwing pods of the J-20, curved, DSI, rounded lower chin, ect. Another common argument, 'the bottom of the pak-fa is not stealthy' by this they are implying that the lower fuselage is a corner reflector, (of course they don't even know what a corner reflector is), digressing if the pak-fa presents a corner reflector then the J-20s ventral fins also present a corner reflector. Other argument such as the canopy argument is just too silly and has already been answered. Instead of worrying about the pak-fa I would worry about the J-20s canards.

Look at Russian UAV. It almost non existent due to the backward of Russian electronic sector.

Funny Russia has about as many UAVs as China, and the dozor 600 and dozor 3 although smaller then the Chinese Pterodactyl has better performance in many key areas such as altitude, flight duration and payload, and if Russia has backwards electronics then what does that make China since China still purchases electronics warfare helicopters from Russia?

The instant data relay and high flow of data is out of the grasp of Russian abilities.

Show me one Chinese aircraft that can fly preprogramed missions and override the pilot if he blacks out by taking control when recognizing flight characteristics that will lead to a crash.

China is even selling a workable armed UAV and Russian has nothing to offer.

Which is nothing to brag about especially since those clients usually can't afford anything better or are unable to acquire anything better. China does not come close to the amount of advanced equipment that Russia sells.

 

[Beast]

. I never said engine technology was everything I stated that if a country is able to produce successful engines then other defense sectors will have success since engine technology includes everything from material science to electronics and successful mastering of those fields and many others transfers over to other projects.

That is another lie invented by you to make you better. Example, Israel and Sweden. Both are not known to be expert in making propulsion system but they have world class AWACS and electronic system for their F-16 Sofia and Gripen. Sweden needs to get American GF-404 engine while basically Sofia beside the whole plane, the electronic system is Israel. Do they need advance metallurgy to improve their electronic? No, big lie from you. That equals to china who rank right top in R&D and electronic sector. Our AESA destroyer and AWACS are there to prove it.

.
Typical Chinese attitude, I did not know that random Chinese on a Pakistani forum suddenly became experts in low observable aircraft. There are a number of Chinese that have said the same thing and when challenged with sources and real physics their arguments full a parts. Typical Chinese mentality-- 'the pak-fa is crap because of the IRST', while the Chinese disregard the rounded underwing pods of the J-20, curved, DSI, rounded lower chin, ect. Another common argument, 'the bottom of the pak-fa is not stealthy' by this they are implying that the lower fuselage is a corner reflector, (of course they don't even know what a corner reflector is), digressing if the pak-fa presents a corner reflector then the J-20s ventral fins also present a corner reflector. Other argument such as the canopy argument is just too silly and has already been answered. Instead of worrying about the pak-fa I would worry about the J-20s canards.

Chengdu J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment

I rather listen to an expert than your nationalistic and crap read.

. Funny Russia has about as many UAVs as China, and the dozor 600 and dozor 3 although smaller then the Chinese Pterodactyl has better performance i n many key areas such as altitude, flight duration and payload, and if Russia has backwards electronics then what does that make China since China still purchases electronics warfare helicopters from Russia?

LOLzZz what advance UAV did Russia have? Such a stupid thing you can also talk big and lie about? What armed UAV did Russia sells? May I know? Instead of talking crap, I think you shall bring out some solid facts. If not , just another nationalistic rant and crap from you.

If you want to bring up 10 years old deal and talk about. Clearly, you just can't read fact. May I know what electronic AWACS or plane we buy from Russia? We intend to use Z-8EC for our CV-16 , never heard of any Russia helo.

 

[indian_foxhound]

BEIJING: Russia's defence industry rolled out the red carpet for new Chinese president Xi Jinping amid speculation of top military deals as he wound up his high-profile visit to Moscow saying that the bond between the two countries provided "strategic balance to global order".

Xi, 59, who is also China's military chief besides being the president of the country and head of the ruling Communist Party of China, visited Russia's defence ministry becoming the first Chinese leader to tour the headquarters of one of world's most well-developed weapons industries.

Xi was received by Russian defence minister general Sergei Shoigu with full military honours.

While meeting Shoigu and other senior military generals, Xi said the idea of visiting the ministry was proposed by Russian president Vladimir Putin, and he believed that the trip would benefit the strategic and political mutual trust between the two countries and boost their military-to-military relationship and cooperation.

Xi, who earlier said China-Russian ties helped guarantee the "international strategic balance and peace", observed that military cooperation has a special and important place in the overall China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination.

The two armed forces, over the recent years, have seen their exchanges and cooperation constantly enhanced, particularly in the fields of high-level contacts, personnel training, joint exercises and military technologies, state-run Xinhua news agency quoted Xi as saying.

After the meeting, Xi also visited the command centre of Russia's military force.

Xi's visit to Russia's defence ministry comes in the backdrop of reports that cash strapped Moscow is opening its top-of-the-line weapons systems to the fast expanding Chinese military, which this year budgeted to spend $115.7 billion on defence.

Reports say the two countries concluded framework agreements for the sale of four Russian Amur-1650 diesel submarines to China and sale of latest Su-35 long-range fighter planes.

This is perhaps for the first time in a decade that Russia plans to sell more powerful weapons platforms to China than the ones being supplied to India, Moscow's long-standing strategic partner.

Hesitant of the duplication of its technology, Russia sold a host of weapons systems in the past including Su-30s, but in small numbers, even though it remained as the largest supplier of engines to much of Chinese fighter planes including the JF Thunder being manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan.

In the past, Moscow has also accused Beijing of violating the patents of Russian-made weapons and charged that China was simply copying Russian technologies and competing with Russia in the international arms market.

The Chinese president later left for Tanzania, continuing his first foreign tour.

http://www.timesofindia.com/world/c...ing-eyeing-big-deals/articleshow/19169857.cms

 

[Beast]

BEIJING: Russia's defence industry rolled out the red carpet for new Chinese president Xi Jinping amid speculation of top military deals as he wound up his high-profile visit to Moscow saying that the bond between the two countries provided "strategic balance to global order".

Xi, 59, who is also China's military chief besides being the president of the country and head of the ruling Communist Party of China, visited Russia's defence ministry becoming the first Chinese leader to tour the headquarters of one of world's most well-developed weapons industries.

Xi was received by Russian defence minister general Sergei Shoigu with full military honours.

While meeting Shoigu and other senior military generals, Xi said the idea of visiting the ministry was proposed by Russian president Vladimir Putin, and he believed that the trip would benefit the strategic and political mutual trust between the two countries and boost their military-to-military relationship and cooperation.

Xi, who earlier said China-Russian ties helped guarantee the "international strategic balance and peace", observed that military cooperation has a special and important place in the overall China-Russia comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination.

The two armed forces, over the recent years, have seen their exchanges and cooperation constantly enhanced, particularly in the fields of high-level contacts, personnel training, joint exercises and military technologies, state-run Xinhua news agency quoted Xi as saying.

After the meeting, Xi also visited the command centre of Russia's military force.

Xi's visit to Russia's defence ministry comes in the backdrop of reports that cash strapped Moscow is opening its top-of-the-line weapons systems to the fast expanding Chinese military, which this year budgeted to spend $115.7 billion on defence.

Reports say the two countries concluded framework agreements for the sale of four Russian Amur-1650 diesel submarines to China and sale of latest Su-35 long-range fighter planes.

This is perhaps for the first time in a decade that Russia plans to sell more powerful weapons platforms to China than the ones being supplied to India, Moscow's long-standing strategic partner.

Hesitant of the duplication of its technology, Russia sold a host of weapons systems in the past including Su-30s, but in small numbers, even though it remained as the largest supplier of engines to much of Chinese fighter planes including the JF Thunder being manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan.

In the past, Moscow has also accused Beijing of violating the patents of Russian-made weapons and charged that China was simply copying Russian technologies and competing with Russia in the international arms market.

The Chinese president later left for Tanzania, continuing his first foreign tour.

Russian arms industry welcomes Chinese president Xi Jinping eyeing big deals - The Times of India

Sorry, all deals that needed to be signed already sign even before Chairman Xi arrived on Moscow. So that means no more deal will be signed during the state visit. This report show Russian is desperate to shove the Amur sub and Su-35 to China. But China only express a 'Will see how?' attitude towarss Russian hardware.

Russia, China Sign 9 Deals, Including on Rabbits | World | RIA Novosti

MOSCOW, March 22 (RIA Novosti) – Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and his Chinese counterpart Wang Yang signed nine economic agreements in Moscow on Friday, including on cooperation in banking, energy and rabbit husbandry.
The Kostroma Region-based company Russky Krolik (Russian Rabbit) now has a new partner in Beijing, and the agriculture ministries of both countries will be working together to develop the fine art of cuniculture, or breeding rabbits, according to the deal package.
Russian petrochemicals company Sintez Group signed an agreement on cooperation with State Grid Corporation of China, while En+ Group, controlled by Oleg Deripaska, agreed to work with China Development Bank and the state-run Shenhua Overseas Development and Investment Co. Ltd in the coal industry.
China Development Bank also signed an agreement with MBC Corporation managing company on principles of financial cooperation.
Russia and China will also launch joint production of heavy drilling rigs, according to a deal between Russia’s Uralvagonzavod corporation and VTB Leasing company and China’s Honghua Group.
VTB Leasing’s owner, the state-run VTB bank, will be working with China Construction Bank, and Rosgosstrakh insurer with China’s Chengdong Investment Corporation.
Finally, Export Insurance Agency of Russia and China Export & Credit Insurance Corporation signed a deal on facultative reinsurance.
The deals were signed ahead of the new Chinese President Xi Jinping’s three-day visit to Russia, which begins on Friday and will be his first foreign trip since assuming office on March 14.

Sorry to burst those who anticipated any Su-35 deal.. No even a single arm deal is signed. All is Russian wishful thinking and desperation of the maker who needed someone to buy Su-35..

I think China will buy, provided each Su-35 cost USD 5 million each. If, not. I don't see how this arm deal will go thru.
Btw, Xi already left Moscow.

 

[Persian Achaemenid Empire]

I don't see why china would need to buy anything from outside anymore. China is very self sufficient in their military.

 

[Beast]

I don't see why china would need to buy anything from outside anymore. China is very self sufficient in their military.

Precisely,No more major, big pieces business like a whole tank, Submarine or fighter jets. Still some military contacts and small business still need to carry out like engines purchase to keep the relationship warm and all sides happy.

If not, Russia will complain China buys only raw material and no finished product from Russia and they will barked at the trade imbalance...

 

[Persian Achaemenid Empire]

Precisely,No more major, big pieces business like a whole tank, Submarine or fighter jets. Still some military contacts and small business still need to carry out like engines purchase to keep the relationship warm and all sides happy.

If not, Russia will complain China buys only raw material and no finished product from Russia and they will barked at the trade imbalance...

Also sometimes you need to buy things from country so you can see that product and study it so you can see how advanced and what technology that country has.

 

[Beast]

Also sometimes you need to buy things from country so you can see that product and study it so you can see how advanced and what technology that country has.

The problem is the military technology gap between Russia and China is getting smaller and smaller or even some of our products surpass theirs..

If Russia can really produce world class military product , we will not mind. The problem is Russia military product is not competitive anymore. Why need Su-35 when we are developing J-20 and going to put it in service soon?

The problem is Russia media will jump at any little gesture and small talk between Russia and China regarding military deal and make a big wooha about it even nothing is conclusive. The rumour is, Russian is very agressive pushing their Su-35 towards the Chinese during the Zuhai 2012 Airshow. Our military representive only express a " we will look into it" attitude. Of cos out of goodwill, we don't outright reject them.

 

[Persian Achaemenid Empire]

The problem is the military technology gap between Russia and China is getting smaller and smaller or even some of our products surpass theirs..

If Russia can really produce world class military product , we will not mind. The problem is Russia military product is not competitive anymore. Why need Su-35 when we are developing J-20 and going to put it in service soon?

The problem is Russia media will jump at any little gesture and small talk between Russia and China regarding military deal and make a big wooha about it even nothing is conclusive. The rumour is, Russian is very agressive pushing their Su-35 towards the Chinese during the Zuhai 2012 Airshow. Our military representive only express a " we will look into it" attitude. Of cos out of goodwill, we don't outright reject them.

Well that is completely true. Why would chine waste money on su-35 when you have so much project to invest in at home.
This China needs su-35 is a propaganda against China to show that China is dependant on the Russians.
I know this because Iran is constantly being attacked with these propaganda such as The drones we hacked and downed they said oh no they crashed because Iran are not smart enough and do not have the capability to down these drones.

These westerners forget too quickly that if it was not for Persian,Chinese contributions to science and maths and don't forget it was the Persian who gave all the knowledge from east to the west. They would still be using carrots to count if it was not for us.

So don't be intimidated by these idiots, China needs to keep it's head down and advance more and more and not let these propaganda get to you. Russians will have no choice by to sell you what you need, Russians will be idiots if they damage their relation with you just because you won't buy their toys.

 

[Beast]

Well that is completely true. Why would chine waste money on su-35 when you have so much project to invest in at home.
This China needs su-35 is a propaganda against China to show that China is dependant on the Russians.
I know this because Iran is constantly being attacked with these propaganda such as The drones we hacked and downed they said oh no they crashed because Iran are not smart enough and do not have the capability to down these drones.

These westerners forget too quickly that if it was not for Persian,Chinese contributions to science and maths and don't forget it was the Persian who gave all the knowledge from east to the west. They would still be using carrots to count if it was not for us.

So don't be intimidated by these idiots, China needs to keep it's head down and advance more and more and not let these propaganda get to you. Russians will have no choice by to sell you what you need, Russians will be idiots if they damage their relation with you just because you won't buy their toys.

Precisely, sooner or later lies will be exposed. Their propaganda will be a joke!!

 

[Sanchez]

Russians are still a bit ahead of us in terms of some military technology. The import of Russian top toys does maintain sort of tech exchange untill someday when Russians realize that actually we could buy each others' best stuff.

 

[ptldM3]

That is another lie invented by you to make you better. Example, Israel and Sweden. Both are not known to be expert in making propulsion system but they have world class AWACS and electronic system for their F-16 Sofia and Gripen. Sweden needs to get American GF-404 engine while basically Sofia beside the whole plane, the electronic system is Israel. Do they need advance metallurgy to improve their electronic? No, big lie from you. That equals to china who rank right top in R&D and electronic sector. Our AESA destroyer and AWACS are there to prove it.

This is comical, Israel had over 13,000 Russian scientists immigrate to Israel some of which were likely involved in jet propulsion, this means that Israel already has a large knowledge pool of scientists and engineers that have experience in various fields.

http://www.openu.ac.il/Personal_sit...nglish and scientists - LIS, 30, 2 (2001).pdf

More than 13,000 scientists from the former Soviet Union have surged into Israel since

As for your argument with the Gripen, the Gripen is made up of many foreign parts with suppliers from Great Britain, the United States, German, France, South Africa, ect, even the radar is based off of a British design. I also never stated that if a country does not produce jet propulsion that, that country can not produce sophisticated technology. what I did state was that a country that does have experience with jet propulsion will carry over that knowledge to other defense sectors because of the diverse disciplines involved in jet propulsion. There is also doubt at how advanced other technologies will be if jet propulsion has not been mastered. Israel simply purchases their jet engines from other countries, this is not to say they can not produce them.

Chengdu J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment

I rather listen to an expert than your nationalistic and crap read.

That so called expert, is not an expert at all, just an engineer with a good knowledge base and a lot of bias views. But if you want to play that game that expert actually praised the pak-fa and called it a genuine stealth aircraft. He also ran physical optics test on both the J-20 and pak-fa and in certain frequencies/aspect angles the pak-fa had very similar and even smaller RCS figures.

LOLzZz what advance UAV did Russia have?

You must have a reading comprehension problem, you quoted me when I mentioned those advanced UAV's. The Dozor 3 and Dozor 600 refresh your memory?

Such a stupid thing you can also talk big and lie about? What armed UAV did Russia sells? May I know? Instead of talking crap, I think you shall bring out some solid facts. If not , just another nationalistic rant and crap from you.

This is a desperate and low attempt to try to compete with me. By this logic the JF-17 must be more advanced then the Rafale because no one has purchased the Rafale outside of France.

I can also state that the J-10 is a low quality outdated aircraft because no one outside of China has purchased the J-10.

If you want to bring up 10 years old deal and talk about. Clearly, you just can't read fact. May I know what electronic AWACS or plane we buy from Russia? We intend to use Z-8EC for our CV-16 , never heard of any Russia helo.

More like 2010. China has recently ordered ka-31s which are AEW&C aircraft, so with this knowledge, why does China still purchase equipment from Russia if Russian equipment is such junk and Chinese equipment is taunted to be so good? Delusions and national pride has no basis in reality.

 

[Yeti]

Some stupid chinese fanboys not naming any names were going on about how China does not need Russian arms, one was even willing to bet $100 that China will not buy the SU-35 fighter lol

 

[Beast]

Some stupid chinese fanboys not naming any names were going on about how China does not need Russian arms, one was even willing to bet $100 that China will not buy the SU-35 fighter lol

Do you lack of balls to bet with him? So far no deal is signed yet and latest new is Russia claimed their production line is full. No Su-35. Rather it you Indian who can't accept china do not want to buy Su-35. I challenged you again. Post me a link from xinhui news or official CCP website saying Su-35 deal is underway. Sorry to burst your bubble, little Indian.

I know it hurts to have the name tag as largest importer of foreign weapon consider India size. It's a shame. That is why Indian is desperate to malign china.

 

[conworldus]

I really wished that the gas deal could be finalized...

Also, can we please be done with the Su-35 BS all ready? China has not bought it.