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The Concept of the Pan-Malay Union: A discussion

You need to get your medicine.

The fact of anti-Malay discrimination during colonial centuries and ongoing discrimination by minorities is well known.

If minorities engage in ethnic nepotism, why should the majority allow it and suffer?

Would you allow it if elite whites running rich Western companies in China discriminated against Han Chinese and favored whites?


You're constantly stressing that minority dominate economy is a sin, and if the majority give them backlash then they deserve it. In Germany's case, Jew was the minority controlled economy, and Nazi was representing majority to teach Jews a "lesson".
 
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You're constantly stressing that minority dominate economy is a sin, and if the majority give them backlash then they deserve it. In Germany's case, Jew was the minority controlled economy, and Nazi was representing majority to teach Jews a "lesson".

The issue isn't about minority dominating economy. The issue is about discrimination.

If one ethnic group is discriminating against others, then that discrimination must be reversed.

You still didn't answer my question: what if the white minority in China discriminated against Han Chinese in favor of whites? What would you do?

@Developereo @Maxtini

Some of Indonesian Native ethnic is actually a Mix Chinese like Betawi/ Palembang ethnic etc. There was no problem before Westener came, during that time many Native marry Chinese ethnic and many of Chinese converted into Islam as well. The tension between Chinese ethnic and Non-Chinese ethnic started during Dutch Colonization, in which Dutch prefer Chinese entrepreneurs to work with them and put them as the first partner in trade, and also despise native ones as a second grade people. It is a devide at empera tactic.

Yes, many ethnic divisions were highlighted and promoted by colonialists to divide and conquer. One of the worst examples I know was the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda, where the colonial propaganda resulted in massacre of about 1,000,000 people.

It seems that Indonesia has handled the post-colonial period better than many other countries, improving ethnic integration and promoting national identity. Malaysia hasn't handled it as well, it seems.
 
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The issue isn't about minority dominating economy. The issue is about discrimination.

If one ethnic group is discriminating against others, then that discrimination must be reversed.

You still didn't answer my question: what if the white minority in China discriminated against Han Chinese in favor of whites? What would you do?

Your idea will not work in Indonesia, Indonesia comprises of so many ethnics and races each of them feeling they are must be better than any other ethnic. In paper the idea of Bhineka Tunggal Ika aka diverse in Unity is sound like a dreams and very nice in which we had dreamed to create a Nation in the land of so many ethnics and all of them have their own cultures and civilization, but it was so hard to reach them. In the past we are using a lot of military intervention, concession, diplomatic and political approach to reach what we have achieved today. Actually, we had fighting against so many rebellions in our so many provinces and Islands. The last largest rebellion happened not too far away, in Aceh circa 2003-2006, and till today we are facing small scale insurgencies in Papua. But yet Indonesia can hold herself together, building, rising yet suffering all together, if not for Indonesian principles to giving the equal rights and responsibilities for all of our ethnics and peoples regardless his/her races. Some minor problems is happened but we can corrected and fixing it with each passing times. There is no need for any special and privileged rights for any ethnics in Indonesia, the last time we do it we are facing the hard times and we don't want to repeat the same mistakes we did in the past.
 
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Why do you think Malay in Malaysia still clinged to Bumiputera policy and emphasizing Islam as its identity? It is exactly that the Chinese community has stubbornly clinged to its Chinese roots and refuse to accept any compromise.

(I don't like to touch Islam because this is a touchy subject, I do avoid it. This about the government effort to improve racial ties during Prime Minister Badawi racial integration)
I do feel Islam is partly(before you start flaming) a reason, I can give example in an open house celebration or wedding, as a Chinese we can go to an Indian house and Muslim house celebration. But a muslim won't come or eat our food despite being halal, they are disgusted by our cooking utensil and sin to observe the wedding ceremony/celebration. A Chinese can go with Indian for drinking night and talk cock sing song.

You know assimilation would be weird in Malaysia. First of all, we will be adopting Arab names instead of Malay name. Which is weird, since they are mostly arab muslim names. I haven't seen a genuine malay name for a long time. Chinese with muslim name but not muslim. What about minorities in Sabah, and Sarawak. I can guarantee they will vote for succession because of that special clause sign during the union. Why, because it will look as a attempt to convert them into Islam and Malaysia turning into Islamic state.

I can tell you some funny thing about Malaysia, the Natives living on the jungle in peninsular Malaysia are not considered Bumiputera despite living there for god knows how long unless they converted to muslim. Some did, some did not, some got trick into it after accepting aid (lesser known stuff usually not reported). Even Thais I know of, in state bordering Thailand, are not bumiputera. According to them they been living there for generations before the Malays came, and stole their land after independent. Luckily Sabah and Sarawak includes all native minorities.

Then there always the politics in democratic society. There will be a sink in racial ties during election period. For some reason, the government allows its party ranks to use racial card while the opposition cannot(opposition goes to jail ONLY). The government spew racist venom onto Malay to win election. I rather stop having democracy if it is for the sake of racial relations.
 
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Around the world affirmative action policies are based on redressing historical and ongoing discrimination. There is nothing that says the ethnic majority always holds economic power. If a minority group holds disproportionate power and discriminates against the majority, then affirmative action is called for.

If I may infer , Sir @Developereo , I would like to say that the British may be at fault for cultivating a wrong and erroneous assumption that Malays are 'lazy', are 'not as aggressive' in terms of economics and finance, and 'needed' British protectionism , almost anti-Sangley laws to prevent the domination of the indigenous inhabitants, the Malays. What I notice is that most of the European imperials in Asia and Southeast Asia implemented anti-Sangley laws. I think in the Philippines, the Spanish had also implemented laws to bar and prevent the Chinese immigrants from acquiring land, even preventing the Chinese to marry with the local people.

In my opinion, it was this culture of espousing Malay 'inferiority' and their tendency to be 'taken advantaged of' was the very etiology of this current Bumiputra System. Bumiputra, if we analyze its use in context to the social structure is to put the Malays in upper or equal bearing in comparison to the Malaysian Chinese or Malaysian Indians. As if the Malays have some kind of educational or intellectual deficiency. In fact this affirmative action in favor of the Malays in Malaysia ingrains in the minds of not only the Chinese, Indians, but even the Malays that there is some kind of intellectual depravity on part of the Malays, which I think is unfounded. So thus, this affirmative action should be removed.

If we examine Indonesia, the majority of the population belongs to the Javanese and Sundanese ethnic group, but there are no preferential laws that favors Javanese or Sundanese groups, rather, Indonesia espouses an inclusive culture of the national body. Either one is Javanese, Sundanese, Malay, Madurese, Batak, Minang Kabau, Betawi, Tionghoa, Balinese, Banjarese or Papuan, they are all Indonesian. I think this is what the government in Malaysia need to consider if they want to address the ethnic sensitivities in their nation. Because I can tell you, from scholarly journals and reports, the Malaysian Chinese and Malaysian Indians (about 35% of the population) feel that they are second class citizens.

Your idea will not work in Indonesia, Indonesia comprises of so many ethnics and races each of them feeling they are must be better than any other ethnic. In paper the idea of Bhineka Tunggal Ika aka diverse in Unity is sound like a dreams and very nice in which we had dreamed to create a Nation in the land of so many ethnics and all of them have their own cultures and civilization, but it was so hard to reach them. In the past we are using a lot of military intervention, concession, diplomatic and political approach to reach what we have achieved today. Actually, we had fighting against so many rebellions in our so many provinces and Islands. The last largest rebellion happened not too far away, in Aceh circa 2003-2006, and till today we are facing small scale insurgencies in Papua. But yet Indonesia can hold herself together, building, rising yet suffering all together, if not for Indonesian principles to giving the equal rights and responsibilities for all of our ethnics and peoples regardless his/her races. Some minor problems is happened but we can corrected and fixing it with each passing times. There is no need for any special and privileged rights for any ethnics in Indonesia, the last time we do it we are facing the hard times and we don't want to repeat the same mistakes we did in the past.

You know this is very interesting because both Indonesia and the Philippines are examples of how there is a policy of inclusion. In regards to Jakarta, the Assimilation policy as touted BY Suharto is what helped bridge the gap of the ethnic divide, and tho it may have been sensitive in the beginning, in the current era, it seems to have worked. Indonesia, as a Republican Democracy, is an example of how a nation can be 1) multicultural, 2) integrated), 3) muslim majority can be a successful Republic and Democracy. The Philippines, too, has a policy of inclusion amongst the ethnic groups that make up its Republic, as well as takes into consideration of the many muslims that inhabit the country.

(I don't like to touch Islam because this is a touchy subject, I do avoid it. This about the government effort to improve racial ties during Prime Minister Badawi racial integration)
I do feel Islam is partly(before you start flaming) a reason, I can give example in an open house celebration or wedding, as a Chinese we can go to an Indian house and Muslim house celebration. But a muslim won't come or eat our food despite being halal, they are disgusted by our cooking utensil and sin to observe the wedding ceremony/celebration. A Chinese can go with Indian for drinking night and talk cock sing song.

You know assimilation would be weird in Malaysia. First of all, we will be adopting Arab names instead of Malay name. Which is weird, since they are mostly arab muslim names. I haven't seen a genuine malay name for a long time. Chinese with muslim name but not muslim. What about minorities in Sabah, and Sarawak. I can guarantee they will vote for succession because of that special clause sign during the union. Why, because it will look as a attempt to convert them into Islam and Malaysia turning into Islamic state.

I can tell you some funny thing about Malaysia, the Natives living on the jungle in peninsular Malaysia are not considered Bumiputera despite living there for god knows how long unless they converted to muslim. Some did, some did not, some got trick into it after accepting aid (lesser known stuff usually not reported). Even Thais I know of, in state bordering Thailand, are not bumiputera. According to them they been living there for generations before the Malays came, and stole their land after independent. Luckily Sabah and Sarawak includes all native minorities.

Then there always the politics in democratic society. There will be a sink in racial ties during election period. For some reason, the government allows its party ranks to use racial card while the opposition cannot(opposition goes to jail ONLY). The government spew racist venom onto Malay to win election. I rather stop having democracy if it is for the sake of racial relations.

Kuala Lumpur needs to abide by its policy and declaration. From my reviews of scholarly journals and peer-reviewed political articles on Bumpitura, this new economic policy which was promulgated in 1971 was intended to last only 20 years. It was supposed to be terminated in 1991. I find it almost ludicrous that Kuala Lumpur has reneged on the termination of the Bumiputra Policy in 1991. I still do not understand the reason why they are still continuing this affirmative action plan to this very day , in 2014.

For me, there should be no racial preferential treatment amongst citizens. Malaysian is Malaysian, who cares if a Malaysian is ethnically Desi (South Asian) or ethnically Han (Chinese). They're still Malaysian. They should abrogate this policy that keeps almost 10 million Malaysians (of Chinese, Indian and racially mixed stock) practically as second class citizens with second class rights.
 
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I haven't seen a genuine malay name for a long time. Chinese with muslim name but not muslim.

What does a Malay name look like ? Can you give me an example ? Advanced Thanks.


What about minorities in Sabah, and Sarawak. I can guarantee they will vote for succession because of that special clause sign during the union. Why, because it will look as a attempt to convert them into Islam and Malaysia turning into Islamic state.

I had thought that Islam was wide practiced in the states of Sarawak and Sabah. Is this not true ? Please clarify.
 
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What does a Malay name look like ? Can you give me an example ? Advanced Thanks.
Kiambang, Mayang or Tuah from wikipedia. There are others, mostly in old Malay literature.

I had thought that Islam was wide practiced in the states of Sarawak and Sabah. Is this not true ? Please clarify.
"Sabah together with Sarawak, Singapore, and Malaya together formed the federation of Malaysia on September 16, 1963. Sabah was multiracial state with no clear majority race, but with the Kadazandusun as the largest ethnic group. Unlike other states in Peninsular Malaysia, the majority of natives or bumiputras in Sabah are non-Muslims." You can wiki it for Sabah and Sarawak. Can't post links yet.

I suggest you go read this book.
World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability by Amy Chua
 
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Kiambang, Mayang or Tuah from wikipedia. There are others, mostly in old Malay literature.

How very interesting. It seems to me that some ethnic Malay names sound so very similar to the names of the Aborigines of Taiwan. Some names of Taiwanese Aborigines include (please tell me if they sound Malay to you):

1. Mona Rudao
2. Taiban Sasala
3. Paelabang Danapan
4. Sayapan Rapongan
5. Tahas Tain Kaywaybaw
6. Ado Kaliting Pacidal

In fact, Taiwanese Aborigines even look similar to the indigenous Filipinos and I think look very similar to some Indonesians and Malays of Malaysia. Perhaps there is some genetic link.

Taiwanese Aborigine:

4421d42a64d8e1c795b275c740c13496.jpg


be2e2877d7fdcbe400f42b0095c8c8ba.jpg


"Sabah together with Sarawak, Singapore, and Malaya together formed the federation of Malaysia on September 16, 1963. Sabah was multiracial state with no clear majority race, but with the Kadazandusun as the largest ethnic group. Unlike other states in Peninsular Malaysia, the majority of natives or bumiputras in Sabah are non-Muslims." You can wiki it for Sabah and Sarawak. Can't post links yet.

Very interesting. I'll check out that book, too.
 
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1. Mona Rudao
2. Taiban Sasala
3. Paelabang Danapan
4. Sayapan Rapongan
5. Tahas Tain Kaywaybaw
6. Ado Kaliting Pacidal

Nope,
Kiambang, a type of plant flower, floats on the river.
Mayang, means something, dun remember, need malay dictionary.
Tuah, luck.

May I politely ask, why are you into these subject?
 
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Nope,
Kiambang, a type of plant flower, floats on the river.
Mayang, means something, dun remember, need malay dictionary.
Tuah, luck.

May I politely ask, why are you into these subject?

Terima Kasi @powastick !

How very interesting ! Thanks for the etymological reference, too.

I am very interested in the culture, actually the multi-culturalism of Southeast Asia, and in specific, the Malay Archipelago. One thing that is not studied enough is the ethnic studies of the nations that are part of the Malay Archipelago; the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia and Timor Leste. I find it fascinating !

This entire region , the Malay Archipelago, has over 386 million people (Indonesia = 256 million, Philippines = 100 million, Malaysia = 30 million, Brunei = 700,000). In fact, strategically speaking, the Malay Archipelago straddles the major shipping lanes, and thus a strategic point of contention. Understanding the peculiarities, ethnic struggles, and areas of development in this region is important when and if organizations are to conduct feasibility studies on specific projects. :)
 
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In fact, strategically speaking, the Malay Archipelago straddles the major shipping lanes, and thus a strategic point of contention.
Please don't, when i'm living there, don't make this region into Middle East.
 
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Please don't, when i'm living there, don't make this region into Middle East.

It is far from being a Middle East. I have very high expectations for the development of the Malay Archipelago, this entire region will become a major production and manufacturing center.
 
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If I may infer , Sir @Developereo , I would like to say that the British may be at fault for cultivating a wrong and erroneous assumption that Malays are 'lazy', are 'not as aggressive' in terms of economics and finance, and 'needed' British protectionism , almost anti-Sangley laws to prevent the domination of the indigenous inhabitants, the Malays. What I notice is that most of the European imperials in Asia and Southeast Asia implemented anti-Sangley laws. I think in the Philippines, the Spanish had also implemented laws to bar and prevent the Chinese immigrants from acquiring land, even preventing the Chinese to marry with the local people.

In my opinion, it was this culture of espousing Malay 'inferiority' and their tendency to be 'taken advantaged of' was the very etiology of this current Bumiputra System. Bumiputra, if we analyze its use in context to the social structure is to put the Malays in upper or equal bearing in comparison to the Malaysian Chinese or Malaysian Indians. As if the Malays have some kind of educational or intellectual deficiency. In fact this affirmative action in favor of the Malays in Malaysia ingrains in the minds of not only the Chinese, Indians, but even the Malays that there is some kind of intellectual depravity on part of the Malays, which I think is unfounded. So thus, this affirmative action should be removed.

The British were doing their standard divide-and-rule tactic of pitting one ethnic group, or tribe, against another. In this case, they imported new ethnic groups to create this friction.

Also, I don't doubt for one second that the Malays were less productive and "lazy". They were demoralized. They had seen their country taken over by, first colonialists, then new foreigners imported by the colonialists. Even if they worked as hard as possible, the most they could hope was to regain what they used to own already. It was the classic Red Queen's race. The foreigners, by contrast, were gaining new possessions. You can't blame the foreign workers; they were only working hard to improve their families' future. The fact that they were pawns in the British divide-and-rule tactic can't be blamed on them.

Once again, this pattern is repeated throughout the world with colonialists, with all sorts of ethnic groups and religions in different roles.

To go back to my example of a village; take an even smaller example. If someone comes and throws you out of your house, brings in new people to lay claim to parts of your house, and says you can come back if you work hard enough, you would be angry. You may resist but, if the usurper has superior weapons, you will eventually get demoralized. When the usurper finally leaves, you find out that half your house belongs to the foreign workers, who treat you with disdain and don't allow you to enter their areas.

The racism of the Chinese in Malaysia (or Indians in Africa) towards the natives is partly a means to preserve their own culture, and partly a reaction to the resentment which the natives would show to the foreigners "collaborating" with the colonialists to take over their land.
 
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The British were doing their standard divide-and-rule tactic of pitting one ethnic group, or tribe, against another. In this case, they imported new ethnic groups to create this friction.

Also, I don't doubt for one second that the Malays were less productive and "lazy". They were demoralized. They had seen their country taken over by, first colonialists, then new foreigners imported by the colonialists. Even if they worked as hard as possible, the most they could hope was to regain what they used to own already. It was the classic Red Queen's race. The foreigners, by contrast, were gaining new possessions. You can't blame the foreign workers; they were only working hard to improve their families' future. The fact that they were pawns in the British divide-and-rule tactic can't be blamed on them.

Once again, this pattern is repeated throughout the world with colonialists, with all sorts of ethnic groups and religions in different roles.

To go back to my example of a village; take an even smaller example. If someone comes and throws you out of your house, brings in new people to lay claim to parts of your house, and says you can come back if you work hard enough, you would be angry. You may resist but, if the usurper has superior weapons, you will eventually get demoralized. When the usurper finally leaves, you find out that half your house belongs to the foreign workers, who treat you with disdain and don't allow you to enter their areas.

The racism of the Chinese in Malaysia (or Indians in Africa) towards the natives is partly a means to preserve their own culture, and partly a reaction to the resentment which the natives would show to the foreigners "collaborating" with the colonialists to take over their land.

I completely agree with you in regards to the the British use of foreign indentured servants / slaves from South Asia and China. I can't help but have a sense of empathy as well as sympathy for the native indigenous peoples in the Malay Peninsula , and yet also have that same empathy for the Chinese and Indian / South Asians who were brought , many of whom, against their will. That said, what has happened cannot be undone now since the descendents of the first Chinese immigrants into Malaya , as well as those of India/ South Asia call Malaysia as their home. I do hope that within time, the Malaysian Government can eventually remove the Bumiputra and focus on not just a Malay identity, but on a 'Malaysian' identity.

To another context, I hope they can realize the national body in Pakistan as an example. There are many ethnicities in Pakistan ranging form Punjabi, Pashtun, Sindhi, Baloch, Saraiki, Farsi; yet all of them are 'Pakistani'.

Malaysia can draw strength from its diversity.

To go back to my example of a village; take an even smaller example. If someone comes and throws you out of your house, brings in new people to lay claim to parts of your house, and says you can come back if you work hard enough, you would be angry. You may resist but, if the usurper has superior weapons, you will eventually get demoralized. When the usurper finally leaves, you find out that half your house belongs to the foreign workers, who treat you with disdain and don't allow you to enter their areas.

A very excellent example. Thank You !
 
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It is far from being a Middle East. I have very high expectations for the development of the Malay Archipelago, this entire region will become a major production and manufacturing center.
Malaysia, could be middle income trap for quite some time. Infrastructure First World.
Indonesia, much room room for potential growth, needs better infrastructure and urban renewal. Corruption limits growth.
Thailand, top 3 for growth, under military rule, stable now. Better Infrastructure.
Vietnam, could be top 1, needs to improve on foreign relations. Plenty of talent.
Philippines, no opinion, seems to have lack of talent, but fantastic relation with US.
Singapore, Financial hub, swiss bank of south east asia.
Myanmar, railway project to China stalled.
Laos, middle of no where, not suitable for industries and manufacturing.
Cambodia, potential growth but still can't beat 3 south east asia tigers.
Papua New Guinea, failed state.

My top 3 , Thailand, Indonesia and Vietnam
 
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