The Burning South - Live Simulation Thread

[SQ8]

Hi,

I have been a lurker at this forum since around 2009-2010. Made an account just to follow the Russian Invasion and this simulation.

I have some amateurish questions. How soon can the runways at the three airfields be repaired, if possible at all? Is it possible to have some Cruise Missiles on standby, targeted at the S400s? Is it possible to suppress the S400 using EW as soon as the mobilisation of 100+ fighter jets is detected using both airborne and ground based assets?

Good to see no JF17 blk 3 has been damaged.

Can we also get details of the complete indian package?

Apologies in advance if these questions are against the rules of this thread (and for being silly too).

The runways were cratered by “simulated” Indian Indigenous Anti Runway stand off weapons. Repair time is being negotiated.

Bear in mind that the entire first “engagement” took about 2 sim hours (and 12 man hours on my end) to implement.

The clock is frozen for the two teams but their next phases and plans will be implemented accordingly soon.

Let me reiterate, we are simulated two ENTIRE military forces with their combined combat and support aircraft count. Their entire naval forces and will be doing engagement with land forces as well.
I don’t think anyone envisioned the platform doing any of these things. The amount of effort put in by the Indian and Pakistani teams was considerable as well.

It may Very well be IMPERFECT and FLAWED in many of the results but the idea is that this becomes a building block for future runs. Perhaps with better tweaks - I don’t have to spend 12 hours.. maybe someone in the India/Pakistan teams can buy/get Command Modern Operations and we can share scenario files for both sides to build on..
Think of what next could be done -

India vs China 2028
India vs Pakistan/China two front war 2024
China vs USA
Indian expeditionary carrier group operating in the strait of malacca
Pakistani anti terror ops in Afghanistan

And so on.

 

[HydraChess]

Yes, but did you notice - was it mentioned? - what a lot of damage the Chinese rip-off of the S/300 did? I think it inflicted the greatest casualties on us.

Why did Indian attack consist of aircrafts first instead of using ballistic missiles and Brahmos to take out airbases and air defence network?

 

[SQ8]

Why did Indian attack consist of aircrafts first instead of using ballistic missiles and Brahmos to take out airbases and air defence network?

The last time in real life the idea of using land based Brahmos came in the Pakistanis deployed their ballistic missiles. The danger of a ballistic missile or rather any weapon where the explicit capability has been declared of it being nuclear equipped you run the danger of it being interpreted as such.

Is that a “fair” assessment? Not exactly But it is one that Pakistan implicitly maintains to keep an advantage. However, it also puts Pakistan in a bind that if it uses similar “dual use” weapons then it frees India up to do the same.

 

[Dazzler]

News Flash - WAR has broken out!

The Indian air force launched a large scale attack this morning on multiple Pakistan Air bases.

However, early reports suggest the losses for the IAF have been severe due to Pakistan's AD net.

There have been some PAF airfields put out of commission and a large stock of Pakistan's SAM missiles have been expended. However, the PAF is still generally intact even with sporadic damage across its airbases.

All in all Indian Losses:
LOSSES:

-------------------------------

13x Jaguar IS [Darin 3]
7x LCA Tejas Mk1
1x MiG-21bis UPG Fishbed N [Bison]
4x MiG-29UPG Fulcrum A
7x Mirage 2000-5EDA
8x Mirage 2000H-5
6x Rafale C
6x Su-30MKI Flanker H
9x Su-30MKI Mk2 Flanker H


EXPENDITURES:

------------------

7x Astra
2x AA-12 Adder B [R-77-1, RVV-SD]
2x AA-12 Adder C [R-77M]
1x AN/SSQ-53F DIFAR
1x AN/SSQ-77B VLAD
4x AS-17 Krypton A [Kh-31A, ASM]
28x Rudram-1
16x AS-17 Krypton D [Kh-31PD, ARM]
4x Derby
87x Harop
4x Meteor
11x PJ-10 Brahmos Blk III [Land-Attack]
2x Python 5
26x Standoff Runway Attack Munition (RAM) CB [24 x Runway Penetrators]
25x SA-21b Growler [40N6]
4x SCALP EG
8x SPICE 1000 GPS/EO [Mk83]
10x ALFA Loitering munition
2x SPICE 2000 GPS/EO [Mk84]
32x SPICE 250 GPS/EO
7x LRSAM

Pakistani Losses:
LOSSES:

2x 30mm China LD-2000 [Type 730] [Cargo]
8x 35mm Twin Oerlikon [UAR-1021 Skyguard FCR] [Cargo]
4x A/C Hangar (2x Medium Aircraft)
3x A/C Hardened Aircraft Shelter (1x Medium Aircraft)
2x Al Khalid [MBT-2000] Main Battle Tank [Cargo]
1x Building (Airport Terminal)
2x F-16A Falcon ADF
4x F-16AM Falcon MLU (2x S-400 kill)
1x F-16BM Falcon MLU
1x F-16DJ Blk 52+ Falcon [Peace Drive] (S-400 kill)
1x HQ-16A [LY-80] TEL [Cargo]
1x J-10C Vigorous Dragon
5x JF-17 Thunder Blk 2
6x M113A1 APC [Cargo]
4x Mirage 5D ( lost in HAS)
1x Mirage 5DR(Shot down by Tejas)
1x Radar (AN/TPS-77)
1x Saab 2000 AEW&C [Erieye] (S-400 kill)
1x Vehicle (China HT-233 [HQ-9]) [Cargo]
1x Vehicle (China YLC-2V) [Cargo]
3x Vehicle (UAR-1021 Skyguard) [Cargo]
1x Y-8F-400 Cub [ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle] (S-400 kill)
3 x 4000m Runway (Rafiqui,Mianwali and Bholari)
2 x 2500m Runway(Rafiqui and Mianwali)



EXPENDITURES:

------------------

5x 23mm Type 23-3 Burst [40 rnds]
4x 30mm China H/PJ-12 [Type 730, 240 rnds]
26x AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM P3I.2
1x AN/SSQ-62D DICASS
2x Aspide 2000
16x Hatf 6 [Conventional, Shaheen 2]
61x HQ-16A [SA-17 Semi-Copy]
17x HQ-16B
3x HQ-17 [SA-15 Copy]
295x HQ-9A
44x HQ-9B
13x PL-12
10x PL-15
6x PL-9
6x RB 70 Bolide

@ghazi52 @araz @The Eagle @The Accountant @That Guy @Irfan Baloch @PanzerKiel @AgNoStiC MuSliM @Imran Khan @PAKISTANFOREVER @waz @Windjammer @KaiserX @niaz @farok84 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @MastanKhan @krash @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Cookie Monster @Bratva @Foxtrot Alpha @Rafael @Rafi @Trango Towers @TNT @Indus Pakistan @Falcon26 @Norwegian @LeGenD @Iltutmish @notorious_eagle @Akh1112 @mingle @Dazzler @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Tipu7 @Horus @Ark_Angel @SQ8 @Goenitz @messiach @TaimiKhan @SecularNationalist @farok84 @Blacklight @Meengla @Ahmet Pasha @White and Green with M/S @ARMalik @Sainthood 101 @Zibago @Jango @Reichsmarschall @Bleek @Dual Wielder @Smoke @RescueRanger @Trango Towers @Asimzranger @FuturePAF @Imad.Khan @forcetrip @baqai @blain2
@Ghost 125

This is a complex simulation with over 1000 elements in play at one time each with their respective parameters that is stressing the limits of what Command Modern Operations is capable of doing. We havent even reached land engagement point!

What is clear is that both sides need to think of UCAVs in the future as they both possess a strong air defense system. Lets see what happens next!

I'm loving these man. Keep em coming.

 

[HydraChess]

The last time in real life the idea of using land based Brahmos came in the Pakistanis deployed their ballistic missiles. The danger of a ballistic missile or rather any weapon where the explicit capability has been declared of it being nuclear equipped you run the danger of it being interpreted as such.

Is that a “fair” assessment? Not exactly But it is one that Pakistan implicitly maintains to keep an advantage. However, it also puts Pakistan in a bind that if it uses similar “dual use” weapons then it frees India up to do the same.

Didn't Pakistan use 16 Hatf 6 (Shaheen 2) missile in this? Without no fear of nuclear escalation?
Didn't India use few Brahmos?

India has a range of ballistic missiles ear-marked for conventional use. Pragati, Prahar, Pranash, Pralay, Shourya. If everything else fail, by 2026 I expect them to buy the aptly named LORA missile from Israel if they don't get one by themselves.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why did Indian attack consist of aircrafts first instead of using ballistic missiles and Brahmos to take out airbases and air defence network?

Brahmos was a bungle, pure and simple; we did not submit the figures in time, and used air-launched Brahmos systems, instead of ground-based ones. The strike plan did not include any ground launches. Quite apart from anything else, using them might have set off alarm signals of a different kind.

Ballistic missiles were useful only against fixed air bases, and the defences were very effective even against missiles - of all kinds. They were also seen as risky to use.

Didn't India use few Brahmos?

The Indian use of Brahmos was of the air-launched variant.

India has a range of ballistic missiles ear-marked for conventional use. Pragati, Prahar, Pranash, Pralay, Shourya.

These were considered dangerous to use, due to misinterpretation by the other side.

 

[HydraChess]

The Indian use of Brahmos was of the air-launched variant.

So it was basically a long range stand-off weapon... Why not use more and more of these? After all beats losing MKIs and Rafales.

 

[That Guy]

The runways were cratered by “simulated” Indian Indigenous Anti Runway stand off weapons. Repair time is being negotiated.

Bear in mind that the entire first “engagement” took about 2 sim hours (and 12 man hours on my end) to implement.

The clock is frozen for the two teams but their next phases and plans will be implemented accordingly soon.

Let me reiterate, we are simulated two ENTIRE military forces with their combined combat and support aircraft count. Their entire naval forces and will be doing engagement with land forces as well.
I don’t think anyone envisioned the platform doing any of these things. The amount of effort put in by the Indian and Pakistani teams was considerable as well.

It may Very well be IMPERFECT and FLAWED in many of the results but the idea is that this becomes a building block for future runs. Perhaps with better tweaks - I don’t have to spend 12 hours.. maybe someone in the India/Pakistan teams can buy/get Command Modern Operations and we can share scenario files for both sides to build on..
Think of what next could be done -

India vs China 2028
India vs Pakistan/China two front war 2024
China vs USA
Indian expeditionary carrier group operating in the strait of malacca
Pakistani anti terror ops in Afghanistan

And so on.

I love the entire idea of this thread. It's very similar to how actual simulations are conducted by various defense organizations and think tanks, though it's on a much more basic level.

 

[Joe Shearer]

India has a range of ballistic missiles ear-marked for conventional use. Pragati, Prahar, Pranash, Pralay, Shourya.

These were considered dangerous to use, due to misinterpretation by the other side.

Didn't Pakistan use 16 Hatf 6 (Shaheen 2) missile in this? Without no fear of nuclear escalation?

Those were shown as 'expenditure', ie, ordnance used up, but there were no attacks on Indian soil during this raid. I don't know what this was about.

So it was basically a long range stand-off weapon... Why not use more and more of these? After all beats losing MKIs and Rafales.

Interesting.

I love the entire idea of this thread. It's very similar to how actual simulations are conducted by various defense organizations and think tanks, though it's on a much more basic level.

No defence organisations or think tanks (I'm trying hard to lose weight, and remarks like this are so discouraging), only us very basic people, chief.

 

[HydraChess]

Interesting.

Fly MKIs from Pune base and launch ALCMs somewhere near Rajasthan or Gujarat and make MKIs return to base.

Ballistic missiles could have cheaper but still 30 Brahmos will cost less than losing 1 Rafale.

Those were shown as 'expenditure', ie, ordnance used up, but there were no attacks on Indian soil during this raid. I don't know what this was about.

Did they lose some launchers in initial raid? Weird if it was agreed upon as a no-go scenario.

 

[313ghazi]

Thanks to all the guys participating in this, especially @SQ8 for doing the heavy lifting.

I'm really enjoying it so far. So much better than the usual chest thumping or politics on the forum.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Fly MKIs from Pune base and launch ALCMs somewhere near Rajasthan or Gujarat and make MKIs return to base.

A thought.

You belong back stage.

Ballistic missiles could have cheaper but still 30 Brahmos will cost less than losing 1 Rafale.

Did they lose some launchers in initial raid? Weird if it was agreed upon as a no-go scenario.

At that stage, we, on our side, were not very interested. We were seriously interested in several other metrics.

 

[HydraChess]

A thought.

You belong back stage.

Happy to join.

 

[HydraChess]

It may Very well be IMPERFECT and FLAWED in many of the results but the idea is that this becomes a building block for future runs. Perhaps with better tweaks - I don’t have to spend 12 hours.. maybe someone in the India/Pakistan teams can buy/get Command Modern Operations and we can share scenario files for both sides to build on..
Think of what next could be done -

I can do that. I can buy Command Modern Operations.

This is the one we want right? https://store.steampowered.com/app/1076160/Command_Modern_Operations/

How many copies will we need?

 

[SQ8]

I can do that. I can buy Command Modern Operations.

This is the one we want right? https://store.steampowered.com/app/1076160/Command_Modern_Operations/

How many copies will we need?

Just 1 - you coordinate for the Indian team

Get familiar with the platform - if you want a screenshare for a quick tutorial apart from whats all over youtube
Let me know

These were considered dangerous to use, due to misinterpretation by the other side.

Those were shown as 'expenditure', ie, ordnance used up, but there were no attacks on Indian soil during this raid. I don't know what this was about.


Interesting.


No defence organisations or think tanks (I'm trying hard to lose weight, and remarks like this are so discouraging), only us very basic people, chief.

Rogue elements - or rather two Shaheen TELs that when told to hold fire and only engage if fired upon would .. FIRE! From the start.
Thankfully unlike in real life I can delete their warheads midflight.

Hopefully as @HydraChess gets more familiar with the platform he will get better at setting RoEs than me.