TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[dBSPL]

The TFX project is actually about to leave 10 years behind. Many people, who cannot get info on the subject from the right sources, saw it as a political move to create leverage against the US when problems begin to arise regarding Turkey's participation in the F-35. Or at least they found it more comfortable to comment on the project model through some stereotypes without paying attention to what kind of infrastructure preparation was before the official launch of the TFX project.

Of course, DEINO's avatar is not used as a target in any of the TAI facilities. BUT, it might still be wise do not walk in front of the Tusaş Hamburg office, hehe...

Joking aside... All are aware of the difficulties.You can be sure that there are much more tough discussions on the subject in Turkish forums and other electronic media outlets than what you see here. However, there is a situation of 'necessity' imposed by the conditions. Of course, still there are serious risks in project management and financial aspects for TAI and its owner SSB. Moreover, the current course of Turkish foreign policy is not conducive to facilitating the conditions.

 

[merzifonlu]

It needs a 40KTons+ class die forging press to manufacture this part,had Turkey builted one already?

No. TAI's intention was to print that part in a giant 3D printer (8 meter X 8 meter) and completely under vacuum. They never thought of producing with the pressing technique. The piece in the picture is very very possibly a mock-up. I'm pretty sure it's not the real part.

 

[dBSPL]

Hürkuş on test flight in Azerbaijan.

via Cem Doğut

https://twitter.com/x/status/1466760685480722443

It is highly probable that Azerbaijan will be the third operator after Turkey and Niger.

 

[siegecrossbow]

No. TAI's intention was to print that part in a giant 3D printer (8 meter X 8 meter) and completely under vacuum. They never thought of producing with the pressing technique. The piece in the picture is very very possibly a mock-up. I'm pretty sure it's not the real part.

Laser 3D printer for titanium parts? You can shave a lot of weight off with that approach.

 

[merzifonlu]

Laser 3D printer for titanium parts? You can shave a lot of weight off with that approach.

Not laser. It's electron beam.

Because it requires a heat source that will act instantly and deeply. The laser cannot penetrate that fast&deep.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Not laser. It's electron beam.

Because it requires a heat source that will act instantly and deeply. The laser cannot penetrate that fast&deep.

I think that’s technically a carver, not a printer. 3D printing is when powdered titanium is melted by a heat source (laser) and applied layer by layer.

 

[merzifonlu]

I think that’s technically a carver, not a printer. 3D printing is when powdered titanium is melted by a heat source (laser) and applied layer by layer.

No powder is used, instead titanium wire is used. The titanium wire is melted by the electron beam and added layer by layer. Of course this is current planning. If technical or political problems arise, everything will change. Because as far as I know, there is no company in Turkey that does electron beam welding. This technology needs to be purchased or developed with external technical assistance.

 

[siegecrossbow]

No powder is used, instead titanium wire is used. The titanium wire is melted by the electron beam and added layer by layer. Of course this is current planning. If technical or political problems arise, everything will change. Because as far as I know, there is no company in Turkey that does electron beam welding. This technology needs to be purchased or developed with external technical assistance.

That’s a novel approach. Thanks for the information.

 

[Kaptan Reis]

No powder is used, instead titanium wire is used. The titanium wire is melted by the electron beam and added layer by layer. Of course this is current planning. If technical or political problems arise, everything will change. Because as far as I know, there is no company in Turkey that does electron beam welding. This technology needs to be purchased or developed with external technical assistance.

No country wanted to supply this equipment to Turkey, all the machines were designed by research, no state shares this kind of technology, for the design of the TFX, the Turkish engineers built this equipment from scratch, it took a while but they were able to do it.
The majority of countries which have this technology have refused to supply the equipment.
There were discoveries that will remain secret

 

[dBSPL]

TAI GM Temel KOTİL: "The production of parts of the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) prototype aircrafts will be completed in 2022.

After the assembly and testing stages of 20,000 parts for each, the MMU will be in the air in 2025. It will enter the inventory of our army in 2028.

The new wind tunnel for MMU will be commissioned at the end of 2022.

The ultimate goal of the project, everything from A to Z, including the engine, will be national when the time comes."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1475002227437748230

 

[Falcon26]

TAI GM Temel KOTİL: "The production of parts of the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) prototype aircrafts will be completed in 2022.

After the assembly and testing stages of 20,000 parts for each, the MMU will be in the air in 2025. It will enter the inventory of our army in 2028.

The new wind tunnel for MMU will be commissioned at the end of 2022.

The ultimate goal of the project, everything from A to Z, including the engine, will be national when the time comes."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1475002227437748230

@Deino thoughts?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

TAI GM Temel KOTİL: "The production of parts of the National Combat Aircraft (MMU) prototype aircrafts will be completed in 2022.

After the assembly and testing stages of 20,000 parts for each, the MMU will be in the air in 2025. It will enter the inventory of our army in 2028.

The new wind tunnel for MMU will be commissioned at the end of 2022.

The ultimate goal of the project, everything from A to Z, including the engine, will be national when the time comes."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1475002227437748230

@JamD @kursed

 

[Deino]

@Deino thoughts?

Again, I stand to what I said already so often: even if prototype completion in 2022 will be achieved - what I still question - it wonders me, why it should only start flight testing in 2025? Three years of ground testing is an IMO unrealistic long period, which either hints that they only will roll out and "uncompleted" empty shell in 2022 or there are still several unsolved issues. However even more unrealistic then is a service entry after only three more years in 2028, that's plain impossible by any standard.

Look how long any comparable 5th generation types needed:

F-22A: maiden flight 7. Sept. 1997 (and one must remember, there was the YF-22 testphase before) ... hand over of the first one on 10. Okt. 2003 at the Tyndall AFB = 6 years
F-35: maiden flight 15. Dez. 2006 (and one must remember again, there was the X-35 testphase before) ... hand over to the USAF on 5. Mai 2011 (AF-07) = 4.5 years
J-20: maiden flight 11. Januar 2011 (as a demonstrator no. 2001), the first real prototype (no. 2011) on 1 March 2014 ... hand over to the PLAAF on 12 December 2016
= nearly 6 years after no. 2001, 2.75 years after no. 2011
Su-57: maiden flight 29. Januar 2010 ... hand over to the RuAF on 25. Dezember 2020 = close to 11 years

So, IMO I don't understand, why a three years break after roll out and then why they think they could introduce it to the TAF after only 3 years of flight testing when you keep in mind, the MMU-01 will at best be an interim demonstrator-like airframe comparable to the J-20 no. 2001. IMO that's plain impossible and I can only ask out Turkish members to explain, why they think they can do what no other country did before with vastly more experience, but again I'm sure this estimation will not find many friends and so let the party of Deino-bashing begin again.

 

[xbat]

First block will have stealth shape and advanced radar, dont expect f35 level sensor fusion, TurAF urgently needs stealth body with f16 capabilities, MMU first block is even far beyond that expectation, long range, pretty much advanced GanAesa radar with 3 antennas, then first block will gradually upgrade to upper level,

israel has f35, greeks has rafeal, russia has su57, we are lagging behind, so early blocks are not bad idea.

 

[dBSPL]

Oh ... f. that s. Here we go again..
Let's remember the chronological order in the MMU project:


15 December 2010 Defense Industry Executive Board (SSIK) -
Start of contract negotiations with TAI for TFX conceptual Design Project.

Conceptual Design Period 2011 - 2014
29 September 2011 SSIK: Signing of the TFX conceptual design contract. Determination of requirements and conceptualization phase. The state contribution is about $ 20 million.

2012 - Undersecretary of defense industry ( now SSB ) agreed with SAAB for Technical Support and Assistance Provider (TSAP).

September 2013 SSIK - Different design alternatives for TFX identified; the operational concept was defined and the general requirements were shaped.

2014 - Conceptual design phase completed with a delay of 4 months.

2014 - Request for proposal document sent to Engine companies. (EuroJet, General Electric, Pratt & Whitney, Rosoboronexport and Snecma)

2015 - A Request for proposal document for the 'Foreign Cooperation Company' within the scope of preparations for the Preliminary Design Period has been released. (Saab, BAE Systems, Airbus, CASIC, Aermacchi and Sierra Nevada Corporation)

05 August 2016 - Signing of the Articles of Association with contractors and official implementation of the project.

January 28, 2017 - Head of Agreement was signed with BAE Systems within the scope of TF-X Development Programme Engineering Development & Preliminary Design Phase, which covers the design, development, production, test and certification studies of MMU/TFX prototypes. The cooperation came into force in August 2017. The deal's value $ 156 million.

2017 - Engine negotiations started with Rolls Royce.

2017 - Inter-state cooperation agreement was signed, between UK and Turkey. UK Department for International Trade brought an Open General Export License (OGEL) into effect on July 28, 2017.

July 2018 - An agreement was signed between BAE and TAI on risk reduction of project.

2018 - Wind tests started in England. (Turkey's new test site was under construction)

July 1, 2019 - Mock-up exhibited at the Paris Air Show. (The final geometry is complete and system integration will proceed through this geometry.)

March 2018 - New block High Performance Computing System (10.000-core computer) installation completed. (The first of the 3 supercomputers to be installed has become operational.)

April 2018 - Dassault Systemes and TAI sign a cooperation agreement on software support. ( 3DEXPERIENCE platform)

May 2018 - The design phase of the TFX project was included in the Project Based Incentive System by goverment, with approximately $ 1 billion.

2018 - Negotiations with many subsystem manufacturers, (especially Leonardo) started under ToT preconditions.

April 2018 - A preliminary agreement was signed between TAI and ASELSAN for avionics packages of TFX Project , such as indigenous AESA radar, EW suites and electro-optical (IRIST) systems

2018 - Collaboration agreements of technical universities started to be signed. A guest engineer program was prepared. (Today, participation in the guest program has exceeded 1000)

August 2, 2018 - state support of approximately $ 1.2 billion was announced. In addition, VAT refund, tax deduction, interest support will be provided; half of the energy consumption expenditures will be covered by the state state. Within the same scope, the project was legally secured for 15 years.

November 2018 - SSB and TRMOTOR have signed the next generation Indigenous Engine Development Program Framework Agreement for TFX.

November 2018 - General Electric F110-GE engine has been decided to be used in prototypes. (total 7 aircraft)

Phase-1 Stage-2 / 2022 - Completion of preliminary design phase and transition to detail design phase. End of the preliminary design phase.

--------------------------------

2023 - According to the schedule, the Roll-Out Ceremony will be held and ground tests will be started.

2025 - Realization of the first flight.

2028/29 - Completion of prototype qualification phase - Initiation of Air Force Command tests. Starting the IOC phase for TFX version/block 1.

2031/32 - Beginning of FOC phase

Scheduled Engineering Development & Preliminary Design Phase is expected to cost around US$1.3 Billion and to be followed by 8-year scheduled Critical Design Review and Prototype Production and Qualification Phases, which planned to cost around US$7.3 Billion. At the end of 12-year and US$8.6 Billion expenses seven flying TF-X prototypes will be manufactured for the test, evaluation and qualification purposes. Another US$14 billion is earmarked for the serial production of the TF-X fighters, bringing the total budget for the project to US$20 billion.