TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Deliorman]

Who cares, bro? The right pockets (and shoe boxes) and foreign bank accounts of those around them should be kept full of dollars and euros while for the sheeple that elects you it is enough to yell 100 times “Gahrolsun Ameriga”, “Katil Izrail”, “ Fasist Avrupa” and “ Eeeyyy Kilicdaroglu , kimsin sen lan, vatan haini?” to keep them all blind and happy.

Majority of people in Turkey no matter who they vote for don’t know how important things like fair competition, free market economy, fair and independent juridical system, fighting corruption and investing in your own young population by creating a world class education and right environment for them to develop their talents are. With a population like this you can never have a country that is anything else than average in all fields at most.

BMC is just one of the many such examples and just a link in the whole system.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

Yeah... giving one of the world's most complex machine's development&production project ( other 2 being, cryogenic engine and nuclear detonation device) to a company that has zero experience with engines.

Nothing to complain about....

Maybe next, Sütaş will make our SLV's rockets.

The company hasn't been established yet (as far as I know). So of course they aren't going to have any experience, same goes for TAEC. That doesn't mean that they will fail, we have plenty of examples of companies doing well in area's they had 0 experience with prior. Experience isn't needed, competence is what's needed and experience will follow.

It's about the reason for being with these companies and external support that they will get. TR motor's reason for being is to develop a jet engine and it will get technical support from Rolls Royce as well as TEI's experience, and financial support from BMC, TEI and SSM. There isn't any reason for TR Motor to fail in this regard at least.

 

[Bismarck]

Yeah... giving one of the world's most complex machine's development&production project ( other 2 being, cryogenic engine and nuclear detonation device) to a company that has zero experience with engines.

Nothing to complain about....

Maybe next, Sütaş will make our SLV's rockets.

With some little help of Otokar engineers.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

Who cares, bro? The right pockets (and shoe boxes) and foreign bank accounts of those around them should be kept full of dollars and euros while for the sheeple that elects you it is enough to yell 100 times “Gahrolsun Ameriga”, “Katil Izrail”, “ Fasist Avrupa” and “ Eeeyyy Kilicdaroglu , kimsin sen lan, vatan haini?” to keep them all blind and happy.

Majority of people in Turkey no matter who they vote for don’t know how important things like fair competition, free market economy, fair and independent juridical system, fighting corruption and investing in your own young population by creating a world class education and right environment for them to develop their talents are. With a population like this you can never have a country that is anything else than average in all fields at most.

BMC is just one of the many such examples and just a link in the whole system.

No offence but judging from your post, it seems rather ironic that you call others sheeple, and here is why:

You seem to have a heavy bias towards one or the other end of the political spectrum. This is probably compounded on by the one sided media you follow, compounding on biases (I don't know if you do that for sure, only you know that). So much so that a person starts to distrust, revile or at the very least question the intelligence of anyone that thinks differently than oneself (like what you wrote in the second paragraph). One starts to believe anything that confirms one's opinions and biases, while rejecting anything that disproves one's bias/goes against oneselves opinion. Even if someone has been proven wrong, time and time again, they still insist on being right just because he has a certain bias he isn't willing to give up, completely lacking any sort of critical thinking in the process.

I'm not trying to attack you or anything here, dost aci soylermis. And the only reason I am picking this up is because I used to be fanatical like that myself.

 

[Otonom Piyade]

No offence but judging from your post, it seems rather ironic that you call others sheeple, and here is why:

You seem to have a heavy bias towards one or the other end of the political spectrum. This is probably compounded on by the one sided media you follow, compounding on biases (I don't know if you do that for sure, only you know that). So much so that a person starts to distrust, revile or at the very least question the intelligence of anyone that thinks differently than oneself (like what you wrote in the second paragraph). One starts to believe anything that confirms one's opinions and biases, while rejecting anything that disproves one's bias/goes against oneselves opinion. Even if someone has been proven wrong, time and time again, they still insist on being right just because he has a certain bias he isn't willing to give up, completely lacking any sort of critical thinking in the process.

I'm not trying to attack you or anything here, dost aci soylermis. And the only reason I am picking this up is because I used to be fanatical like that myself.

I wouldn't worry too much about Deliorman he is usually in his own world nit picking every bad deed the government does and comes here to vent out his frustration.

As for the BMC involvement in TR-Motor a newly created company that's been established to create jet engine technologies, this is spectacular and more than what we could ask for. I don't see any reason why others are whining instead should be grateful of this opportunity. The Qatari investors into the BMC could become the back bone financier for Research and Development, an independent company creating its own path in aeronautical mechanics and engines, that doesn't rely on government aid, hand outs or other incentives.

TEI has been in the business for decades and has been working along with GE engines for some time now, producing parts and other bits n pieces. While it has a vast experience like none others, it mostly relies on government incentives and funds. This is what will make TR-Motor stand out from TEI if it gets a chance to grow into a major company.

 

[azyr]

@Inspector Spacetime and @Otonom Piyade

So are we to just ignore that such a complex and important project is being handed out to BMC with a majority share (and by majority I don't mean 1% 5% or even 10%, the next highest shareholder is at 20% lower shares).

I don't get why we have TEI if she's to be integrated into company after company till someone gets the juicy part of the pie? I'm all for BMC producing and designing land vehicles, engines and the lot.

But a jet engine? The piece of equipment that even Russia is struggling with and China has all but failed at. Are we to just hand out 55% of it to BMC who has no experience or even the manpower for this whatsoever?

I've applauded AKP for their patience and diligence regarding the Turkish arms industry thus far and as a Turk I'm incredibly proud of where we are. Every photo of a t129 or even the F35 is full of hope for me. Thinking that Turkey, while being dealt a shitty hand by having piss poor and aggressive neighbors, no immediate natural reserves that can be used economically and the same Turkey that was beaten up and shredded just over a century ago is back on her feet and dancing with the best out there. Albeit clumsily - but still managing to create parts for the most ambitious flight program out there. These are accomplished largely thanks to the current government (while I acknowledge the effort that was put in these projects well before the AKP it was their unilateral funding and shining the spotlight on this sector that really helped it take off).

Having said all that this last move makes no sense to me whatsoever. Is it about the Qatari money as investment? Use a different economic model where you share revenue from the final product for immediate funding now. See? solved without placing the project in jeopardy.

Btw, this is coming from someone who vehemently defended BMC being trashed for the Altay deal.

 

[-SINAN-]

The company hasn't been established yet (as far as I know). So of course they aren't going to have any experience, same goes for TAEC. That doesn't mean that they will fail, we have plenty of examples of companies doing well in area's they had 0 experience with prior. Experience isn't needed, competence is what's needed and experience will follow.

It's about the reason for being with these companies and external support that they will get. TR motor's reason for being is to develop a jet engine and it will get technical support from Rolls Royce as well as TEI's experience, and financial support from BMC, TEI and SSM. There isn't any reason for TR Motor to fail in this regard at least.

You will not make a toast machine but a fifth generation Turbofan engine, there are only a handful of companies and countries that are capable, even Chinese with all their investment and technical knowledge built up on decades still struggling.

There is no need for further discussion, just believe in what you have to believe.

 

[CrimsonFury]

Let's give BMC 55% of the Defense Ministry as well and just be done with it

 

[xenon54 out]

You will not make a toast machine but a fifth generation Turbofan engine, there are only a handful of companies and countries that are capable, even Chinese with all their investment and technical knowledge built up on decades still struggling.

There is no need for further discussion, just believe in what you have to believe.

Not needing experience... this gotta be a joke, in high tech like this its all about experience, if it wasnt important then the rich gulf countries would all be producing 5th gen, fighters by now.

Gotta ask yourself why its almost exclusively companies with tradition producing the cutting edge products while even the most ambitious newcomers struggle in it.

 

[TheMightyBender]

Not needing experience... this gotta be a joke, in high tech like this its all about experience, if it wasnt important then the rich gulf countries would all be producing 5th gen, fighters by now.

Gotta ask yourself why its almost exclusively companies with tradition producing the cutting edge products while even the most ambitious newcomers struggle in it.

Manpower and experience are not the same thing.

Another thing Gulf countries are lacking is industry base.

 

[xenon54 out]

Manpower and experience are not the same thing.

Another thing Gulf countries are lacking is industry base.

I know and i never said they are.

 

[TheMightyBender]

Last but not least, tr motor is not starting with no experience, it is starting with the experience of RR, one of the greatest jet engine manufacturers in the world.
Nobody in Turkey has any experience in large scale jet engines. Not even TEI. Rest assured that tr motor and TEI are at the same level when it comes to large scale jet engines. But hopefully tr motor does not have the same level of incompetence that TEI is infamous for.

One more thing. In order to maintain high quality there always has to be competition. If TEI was the only jet engine manufacturer in Turkey they would go even more corrupt. (TAI vs Baykar in drones, and mkek monopoly should give you an idea)

You dont need experience to build an engine, you need know-how. Experience is just a way of gaining know-how. Another good way of gaining know-how is TOT which tr motor is doing.

We could also go for experience, but building a large scale turbofan using only experience takes roughly 40 years. We dont have that kind of time.

Of course TOT is very expensive and there is no way we could pay for it... Hmmm... If only there was an allied country who would give us the money to get TOT in return for only profits from the company later on?

 

[-SINAN-]

Last but not least, tr motor is not starting with no experience, it is starting with the experience of RR, one of the greatest jet engine manufacturers in the world.
Nobody in Turkey has any experience in large scale jet engines. Not even TEI. Rest assured that tr motor and TEI are at the same level when it comes to large scale jet engines. But hopefully tr motor does not have the same level of incompetence that TEI is infamous for.

One more thing. In order to maintain high quality there always has to be competition. If TEI was the only jet engine manufacturer in Turkey they would go even more corrupt. (TAI vs Baykar in drones, and mkek monopoly should give you an idea)

You dont need experience to build an engine, you need know-how. Experience is just a way of gaining know-how. Another good way of gaining know-how is TOT which tr motor is doing.

We could also go for experience, but building a large scale turbofan using only experience takes roughly 40 years. We dont have that kind of time.

Of course TOT is very expensive and there is no way we could pay for it... Hmmm... If only there was an allied country who would give us the money to get TOT in return for only profits from the company later on?

Lots of assumptions, lots of wrong information, not a single fact.

 

[Deino]

Lots of assumptions, lots of wrong information, not a single fact.

Indeed ... and therefore just a question: are we still in the TF-X topic?? ... or already more political, industrial or whatever related?

 

[-SINAN-]

Indeed ... and therefore just a question: are we still in the TF-X topic?? ... or already more political, industrial or whatever related?

Well, as you might know a fighter jet gets built around it's engine. It means that first you decide the engine, and build your plane around it. It's not like you can switch to a different kind of engine afterwards. And it seems our decision on TF-X's engine is a disaster, granting the project to a bus maker that has zero experience/knowledge whatever you want to call it, with Jet engines, forget jet engines, it doesn't have any experience with any kind of engine.

This project is doomed, lots of money will be spent, some people who has close relation with the president will get even richer, but there will be no accomplishment.

So, feel free to discuss on whatever left from this project. I'm certainly not gonna do it anymore.