Taiwan Conducts Live Fire Drills on Spratlys, Angering Vietnam

[dichoi]

Thanks. I did some objective research on this last night. It appears that the Imperial Navy did conduct limited action in the Paracels in April 4 of 1939 under the pretext that the Paracels were historically "Chinese territory". The justification of the invasion was because during that time, the Empire of Japan was at war with China and had then effectively placed the Paracels under Japanese Protectorate-ship, then later in 1941, the whole Paracels were placed under jurisdictional control of Japan's Imperial Crown Colony of Taihoku (present day Taiwan), and thus the Paracels were administered by both Japanese and Chinese (Taihokujin) from the seat at Takao (Taiwan).

After Japan ceded control over the entire South China Sea after her surrender in 1945, the administrative control of the Spratly's was open. However, politically and historically speaking, the ROC's claim over the Spratly's and the Paracels stems back to the legacy that they had administered the Paracels when Taiwan was still part of the Japanese Empire. After Taiwan's independence from Japan in 1945, Taiwan retained, officially that is, its administrative rights in the Parcels by historical basis.

Plus, since the Japanese Empire seized the Paracels in 1939 to preserve Chinese territory, in essence recognizing China's historical claims of the region, this can be used as historical basis for China's claim in present status.

Basically, the Chinese (ROC and PLA) base their claim on Japanese Imperial Administration of these so called islands.


View attachment 147198

I would kike to correct your comment here.

When we talking about the " historical territory ", Paracels Islands and Spratly Islands is historical territory of Vietnam from time of Nguyen warlord of Le Dynasty Vietnam and Nguyen Dynasty Vietnam. Vietnam's Kingdom has been officially controlled the Islands.

From time of Nguyen Warlord under Le Dynasty, Paracel is nemed as Bai Cat Vang, there is part of Quang Nan Province Vietnam. In the Ngyuen Dynasty, Nguyen Emperor has been established sao called " Navy Flotte control Paracels and Spratly" to patrol and control Islands in both Paracels and Spratlys Islands.

This is map of Paracels and Spratly Islands under controle of Nguyen Dynasty Vietnam 1836.

In time of protectorate of France over Vietnam from 1883, Spratly and Paracels is still under authority of Nguyen Kingdon in Hue, from 1940 Spratly is changed to part of prefecture Baria Vungtau.

In the WW II, Japan Nàvy taken controle on Islands of Vietnam in SCS (East Sea in Vietnamese Biển Đông) from 1938. Its illegal invasion, we can not say that it is "historical territory of Taiwan". In fact Taiwan is occupied by Japan Emperial like Paracels and Spratly, but Taiwan is part of China and Spratly and Pararels is part of Vietnam, just later on. Paracels and Spratly never a part of Taiwan Island before 1895 when Japan taken control on Taiwan.

After WW II, Japan surrendered and given up controle on Taiwan, Pinghu, ...and Paracels, Spratly island. In San Francisco conference 1951 in USA for Pearce Treathy of Ally with Japan, claim of China ROC over Islands of Vietnam is rejected by Voting.

Note that in San Francisco Conference presented PM Trần Văn Hữu of Vietnam Government under Bảo Đại Vietnam's King.

 

[mike2000]

I can relate to that, but watch out, she carries a big gun and she always has 1 or 2 Leopard ll tanks near her.

ahahaha.......is it, never knew that. Dont worry i will watch out for that, i'm ready to die for loveeee....

 

[SamDNguyen]

China’s claims in the South Sea and on Taiwan are based on the grounds that both were parts of the Manchu Qing empire. The 1904 Qing territorial map did not depict any of these South Sea islands or Taiwan as China’s southernmost border. The only island that is part of China is Hainan Island.

Life is hard enough. Life at sea, as a small fisherman competing with corporate fishing to make ends meet is even harder. Now, with the added naval mights of greedy grown men hunger for powers and expansion, flexing there mighty powers to bully small fisherman boats that comes across them. For what? All the land that they will ever own after death is 84"x28"x23".

What ever it is, I hope they respect the pod of migrating whales there. I hope the whales will bless the future residences and give them a save fishing journey and save them from shipwreck as they have done for our race for hundreds or thousands of years. I hope they do not disturb the essences of nature and continue to give the whales the proper land burial and not let their carcasses decay at sea.

 

[Aepsilons]

I would kike to correct your comment here.

When we talking about the " historical territory ", Paracels Islands and Spratly Islands is historical territory of Vietnam from time of Nguyen warlord of Le Dynasty Vietnam and Nguyen Dynasty Vietnam. Vietnam's Kingdom has been officially controlled the Islands.

From time of Nguyen Warlord under Le Dynasty, Paracel is nemed as Bai Cat Vang, there is part of Quang Nan Province Vietnam. In the Ngyuen Dynasty, Nguyen Emperor has been established sao called " Navy Flotte control Paracels and Spratly" to patrol and control Islands in both Paracels and Spratlys Islands.

View attachment 147307
This is map of Paracels and Spratly Islands under controle of Nguyen Dynasty Vietnam 1836.

In time of protectorate of France over Vietnam from 1883, Spratly and Paracels is still under authority of Nguyen Kingdon in Hue, from 1940 Spratly is changed to part of prefecture Baria Vungtau.

In the WW II, Japan Nàvy taken controle on Islands of Vietnam in SCS (East Sea in Vietnamese Biển Đông) from 1938. Its illegal invasion, we can not say that it is "historical territory of Taiwan". In fact Taiwan is occupied by Japan Emperial like Paracels and Spratly, but Taiwan is part of China and Spratly and Pararels is part of Vietnam, just later on. Paracels and Spratly never a part of Taiwan Island before 1895 when Japan taken control on Taiwan.

After WW II, Japan surrendered and given up controle on Taiwan, Pinghu, ...and Paracels, Spratly island. In San Francisco conference 1951 in USA for Pearce Treathy of Ally with Japan, claim of China ROC over Islands of Vietnam is rejected by Voting.

Note that in San Francisco Conference presented PM Trần Văn Hữu of Vietnam Government under Bảo Đại Vietnam's King.

Thank you for your input @dichoi . I had not read into any Nguyen maps and admittingly, I have very limited exposure of Vietnamese history. Tho I am always open to reading more into recent Vietnamese history, in context to the Spratly and Paracels.

The pretext for Japan's seizure of the Paracels was because the Japanese Empire had used Chinese historical maps , which identified the Paracels as Chinese territory. I don't have any access to old Qing documents, but i'm sure if we do some research, these would include or identify the Paracels as Chinese territory.

I'm only trying to point out the catalyst of the conflicting claims. In no way am I vouchsafing for the Chinese side, Taiwanese side or Vietnamese side. I just want to understand the cause of these conflicting claims.

So. Since Japan had no access to Vietnamese historical text , at the time, it probably did not know of Nguyen Dynasty's control. Then again during that time it was the French who had occupied the islands and Japan wanted to counter any European imperialist's claims and hold of any territory in the region.

I have a small request for you. Do you have any Chinese historical maps that may include the Paracels and Spratly's? I just want to study both sides.

Thank you @dichoi .

 

[dichoi]

The pretext for Japan's seizure of the Paracels was because the Japanese Empire had used Chinese historical maps , which identified the Paracels as Chinese territory. I don't have any access to old Qing documents, but i'm sure if we do some research, these would include or identify the Paracels as Chinese territory.

I don't think so. Chinese historical map related to ECS and SCS did not stating that where is china territory and where is territory of other neighboring countries like Korean, Japan, Vietnam, Philippine and Indonesia.

Here is the map Map of China and the Barbarian Countries. Engraved in stone in Fuchang in about 1136 during the Nan Song Dynasty.

Japan wanted to counter any European imperialist's claims and hold of any territory in the region.

I can agree with you with the comment above.

The Empire of Japan in WW II, aimed to dominate Asia and and the Pacific region and was already at war with the France Indochina, Philippine, Indonesia, Burma ... there is colonial territory of western Imperialists. This action is not base on historical territory of China.

 

[BoQ77]

Guangzhouwan

Constituent territory of French Indochina
Leased territory of France
1898–1946

 

[Aepsilons]

I don't think so. Chinese historical map related to ECS and SCS did not stating that where is china territory and where is territory of other neighboring countries like Korean, Japan, Vietnam, Philippine and Indonesia.

Here is the map Map of China and the Barbarian Countries. Engraved in stone in Fuchang in about 1136 during the Nan Song Dynasty.
View attachment 147388



I can agree with you with the comment above.

The Empire of Japan in WW II, aimed to dominate Asia and and the Pacific region and was already at war with the France Indochina, Philippine, Indonesia, Burma ... there is colonial territory of western Imperialists. This action is not base on historical territory of China.

Thanks for the map. My only issue with the map would be the fact that its based on 12th century China. The Qing Dynasty's map clearly designates a larger expanse of territory. For example:

In this map, clearly there is designation regarding the islands south of Hainan. So, it is evident that the Qing Dynasty had some kind of legal basis to their claim.

 

[kankan326]

The Empire of Japan in WW II, aimed to dominate Asia and and the Pacific region and was already at war with the France Indochina, Philippine, Indonesia, Burma ... there is colonial territory of western Imperialists. This action is not base on historical territory of China.

Japan occupied some of SCS islands during second Sino-Japan war, when Japan had not declared war to European countries yet. Obviously Japanese believed they grabbed the islands from China.

 

[SamDNguyen]

Thanks for the map. My only issue with the map would be the fact that its based on 12th century China. The Qing Dynasty's map clearly designates a larger expanse of territory. For example:

View attachment 147423

In this map, clearly there is designation regarding the islands south of Hainan. So, it is evident that the Qing Dynasty had some kind of legal basis to their claim.

Then according to this map of Qing Dynasty-China would have legal basis to their claim sovereign over the whole world?

 

[BoQ77]

Japan occupied some of SCS islands during second Sino-Japan war, when Japan had not declared war to European countries yet. Obviously Japanese believed they grabbed the islands from China.

that belief is wrong.

 

[dichoi]

Thanks for the map. My only issue with the map would be the fact that its based on 12th century China. The Qing Dynasty's map clearly designates a larger expanse of territory. For example:

View attachment 147423

In this map, clearly there is designation regarding the islands south of Hainan. So, it is evident that the Qing Dynasty had some kind of legal basis to their claim.

This is map of Zhonghua Minguo in title, not for Qing dynasty era of China.

Qing dynasty map of China in 1904 is bellow.
View attachment eef031c660ad1317799fc680acd46383.jpg

An old map of the Republic of China published in 1926 (ROC era 15) is not included Islands.

 

[Grand Historian]

Map of Qing Dynasty China 1904.
View attachment 146547

Why are Vietnamese always posting this map if they can't read the title?

 

[Aepsilons]

@dichoi ,

Compare that map to this, which the French had produced. Notice the parallel.

 

[Grand Historian]

Hua and Yue people existed from ancient time, kid.

Yue was never a coherent entity,while both are Chinese concepts.

 

[kankan326]

Then according to this map of Qing Dynasty-China would have legal basis to their claim sovereign over the whole world?

View attachment 147436

Why you Vietnamese are so obsessed with ancient maps? Why you Vietnamese always use modern ideology on something that happened in ancient time? Ancient territories were never as clear as today. Ancient maps were very rough and inaccurate. And the most important matter is: Ancient people knew about that. They didn't take the map as a serious territory law.
When referring to the water territories, things are even worse. We should put the maps aside. Take the traditions into account. For instance: Who found the islands first. Who was more active in this water area.