T90 Compared with Al Khalid

[ptldM3]

I think the tank comparison discussion can be closed by having capable attack helicopters. No matter how good a tank is, a good attack helicopter can take care of it.

T-90 is an upgraded T-72. T-72 burnt like a wood house when it was confronted by Americans in Iraq.

I m not even sure how even most capable tanks can survive when the adversary has a fleet of gunship helicopters. Just my two cents.

Plenty of T-72's were destroyed during Desert Storm but most were not T-72 and many were destroyed from air strikes. Old license built Chinese T-54/55s are often confused for T-72, these tanks date back to the 1940s. The T-72 actually performed well against Iranian forces using British Cheiftains. As for the T-72 and T-90, there is a big difference in armor protection between the two.

 

[Ajai Ghale]

Funny how T 90 haters J F at each other

Meanwhile IA T90 M is 1.5 times more capable than T 90S

1600 T 90 M

300 T 90 S
-------------------------------------------------------------

By the year’s end, if all goes as per plan, the Indian Army will begin receiving its first T-90M main battle tank (MBT) in completely knocked-down condition from Russia’s Nizhny Tagil-based Uralvagonzavod JSC. It may be recalled that in February 2001, India bought its first batch of 310 T-90S MBTs worth US$795 million, of which 120 were delivered off-the-shelf, 90 in semi-knocked down kits (for licenced-assembly by the Ministry of Defence-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory, or HVF, in Avadi), and 100 in completely-knocked down kits. This was followed by a follow-on contract, worth $800 million, being inked on October 26, 2006, for another 330 T-90M MBTs that were to be built with locally-sourced raw materials. The third contract, worth $1.23 billion, was inked in December 2007 for 347 upgraded T-90Ms, the bulk of which will be licence-assembled by HVF. The T-90M’s final round of user-trials were successfully concluded last year and it has now been cleared for series-production.

The T-90M is a radically upgraded variant of the existing T-90S ‘Bhishma’ MBT, and is 1.5 times more capable than the T-90S. The T-90M features the ‘Kaktus’ embedded explosive reactive armour (ERA) package on its frontal hull and turret-top (the T-90S has ‘Kontakt-5’ ERA), is fitted with an enhanced environmental control system supplied by Israel’s Kinetics Ltd for providing cooled air to the fighting compartment, has additional internal volume for housing the cryogenic cooling systems for new-generation thermal imagers like the THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (operating in the 8-12 micron bandwidth and housed within the Peleng-built 1G-46 gunner’s sight) and the commander’s panoramic sight (which houses the Matis-STD thermal imager that operates in the 3-5 micron bandwidth and which has also been selected for the Arjun Mk1 MBT’s panoramic sight), is fitted with an automatic gearbox, has an electro-hydraulic turret-drive-cum stabilisation system, and most importantly, has a 52-cal 2A46M-5 Rapira smoothbore main gun barrel that also comes fitted with a muzzle reference system. The T-90M’s powerplant will be the Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant-built 1,000hp V-92S2 diesel engine, while a 1kW AB-1-P28 auxiliary power unit will provide back-up electric power when the engine is idling. The gunner’s sight-cum-laser rangefinder will be the 1A43 system, which will also house the Peleng-built 1G46 day sight and the ESSA module containing the Catherine-FC thermal imager and the 9S517 missile guidance module for the Refleks anti-armour/anti-helicopter round. The digital hunter-killer fire-control system will use the 1V528-1 ballistics computer and the DVE-BS meteorological sensor. Bharat Electronics Ltd will supply the T-90M’s digitised battlespace management system and radio communications suite (licence-built models originally designed by Elbit Systems and Tadiran), while Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will provide the fibre-optic gyro-based autonomous land navigation system.

In future, the HVF is expected to retrofit all 987 T-90 MBTs with active protection systems (APS) for which Army HQ on April 24 last year issued requests for proposals to six companies (Israel Military Industries, RAFAEL, BAE Systems, Raytheon, Rosoboronexport, Saab, and Germany’s IBD Deisenroth Engineering) for procuring 1,657 active protection systems (APS) worth $270 million. Those taking part in the Indian bid were Russia’s Kolomna-based KBM Engineering Design Bureau with its Arena-E APS on offer, IMI of Israel with its Iron Fist suite on offer, RAFAEL’s Trophy APS, Raytheon’s Quick Kill APS, Saab’s LEDS-150 and Deisenroth Engineering’s AMAP-ADS. Eventually, the LEDS-150 was selected and its procurement contract was inked on January 27, 2009. The Land Electronic Defence System (LEDS) combines active signature management, soft-kill and hard-kill mechanisms to provide full spectrum active protection to armoured vehicles. Full hemispherical coverage is provided to detect incoming threats and alert the crew. When installed in full configuration, the LEDS-150 offers MBT-comparable protection to light and medium combat vehicles against engagement by weapons like RPG-7s, anti-tank guided-missiles, KE ammunition, mortars and artillery shells. The LEDS-150 is an active defence system and typically comprises laser warning sensors, ADC-150 active defence controller AD, a number of munition confirmation and tracking sensors, and high-speed directed launchers, which allow the combination of soft- and hard-kill countermeasure deployment capability to the platform, optional displays, and interconnecting harnesses. The hard kill feature of the LEDS-150 product is characterised by its capability to physically destroy the efficiency of the terminal ballistic capability of attacking munitions without residual penetration of the protected vehicle. The hard kill system detects and tracks a single or simultaneous threats and calculates if the attacking munition will hit the platform or not. The system determines the best inertial intercept position and provides the slew and firing commands to the launchers. The Mongoose-1 countermeasure missile is launched at a predetermined time to intercept and neutralise the detected munition off-board at a distance of between 5 metres and 15 metres from the vehicle to minimise the collateral damage to own forces.

Interestingly, the hulls and welded steel turrets of the 330 T-90Ms, along with their Rapira gun barrels, will be fabricated by HVF with locally-sourced raw materials, while an improved version of the indigenous ‘Kanchan’ modular ceramics-based composite laminate armour package will be used for substituting the Russian package, whose technology-transfer has been denied by Russia. The same also goes for the Kaktus ERA tiles and RPZ-86M anti-radar paint coating, which will be totally imported from Russia.

Presently, as things stand, Indian Army HQ is adhering to a modified MBT force structure, whose original version, as proposed in 2006, had called for a fleet of 3,780 MBTs, comprising 1,302 T-90s 2,356 T-72s and 124 Arjun Mk1s. The modified structure now calls for 2,473 higher-end MBTs, including 1,409 T-90s, 248 Arjuns, and 692 T-72M1 Combat Improved Ajeyas. The Army’s gameplan is to have 21 regiments of T-90s and 34 regiments of upgraded T-72M1s and six regiments of Arjuns by 2020.--Prasun K. Sengupta

 

[Sage]

T-90 (Russian made) is a lethal machine ...I have talked to a Pakistan Army Major of the T-80 UD and he was all praise for the T-90 ...at the same time ...I found him very confident about Al-Khalid as well ...but since he was not revealing much ...may be he took me just a 'fan-boy' or may be he was deliberately hiding things from me ....however ...he was of the opinion that Al-Khalid very soon would be able to counter any tank in the world ...This he told me some 3 years ago or so ....!

 

[Stephen Cohen]

T-90 (Russian made) is a lethal machine ...I have talked to a Pakistan Army Major of the T-80 UD and he was all praise for the T-90 ...at the same time ...I found him very confident about Al-Khalid as well ...but since he was not revealing much ...may be he took me just a 'fan-boy' or may be he was deliberately hiding things from me ....however ...he was of the opinion that Al-Khalid very soon would be able to counter any tank in the world ...This he told me some 3 years ago or so ....!

You are right

ALL modern tanks are quite close to each other just very marginal differences

Any tank can kill the other ; no tank has an assured superiority

SO to win in a battle you need lots of other support such as infantry armed with ATGMs
artillerry ; helicopter gunships

It is about Combined Arms Action and who has an overall LARGER force

 

[Sage]

You are right

ALL modern tanks are quite close to each other just very marginal differences

Any tank can kill the other ; no tank has an assured superiority

SO to win in a battle you need lots of other support such as infantry armed with ATGMs
artillerry ; helicopter gunships

It is about Combined Arms Action and who has overall LARGER force

Agreed ...the difference is not much ...even a Tank with all bling bling can be defeated with a single RPG round ...the world was not ready to accept it until Abrahm and Merkava were busted ...A company may claim this and that ...but it is the combat ...the real combat that tests the machine ...and also shooting a target that does not shoot back is like a cake-walk for any tank in the world ...soviet example is there of the WW2 !

 

[Dazzler]

Carry on folks

 

[Tipu7]

Plenty of T-72's were destroyed during Desert Storm but most were not T-72 and many were destroyed from air strikes. Old license built Chinese T-54/55s are often confused for T-72, these tanks date back to the 1940s. The T-72 actually performed well against Iranian forces using British Cheiftains. As for the T-72 and T-90, there is a big difference in armor protection between the two.

T72 is less a hunter more a prey ............. in desert storm they failed miserably against American Abraham and British Challengers. Same thing happened in Iraq invasion where even US Bradley scored kills against them. T72 is less like a lethal machine and more a mass production unit.
and Chieftains belong to era when T62/64 were rooling on grounds. T72 is better tank and of course it have to perform well. but over all T72 has very poor kill ratio....................
and T90 is yet to see action in Tank vs Tank battle. same thing goes for Al Khalid.................

 

[ptldM3]

Who edited the title to say Arjun? The topic has ZERO to do with Arjun....nothing. The topic involves the T-90s armor, fire control and battle field management system.

I would like an explanation as to why the title was changed to something i never even mentioned.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

The following is a comparison between the T-90S/ Bhishma MBT and the Pakistani Al Khalid. The T-90M, which the Indian Army will be receiving by the year's end is an improved version of the T-90 series with welded turret, V-92S2 engine and ESSA thermal viewer as opposed to the T-90S, which was a simplified export version with cast turret, R-173 radio, 1V528 computer and V-84-1 engine.

Crew

AL-Khalid = 3
T-90S = 3

Combat Weight

Al-Khalid = 48,000 kg
T-90S = 46,500 kg

Engine

Al-Khalid = 1200 horsepower
T-90S = 840 horsepower

Maximum Speed

Al-Khalid = 72 km/hr
T-90S = 65 km/hr

Maximum Range

Al-Khalid = 450 kms
T-90S = 500

Vertical Obstacle

Al-Khalid = 0.85 m
T-90S = 0.85

Fording

Al-Khalid = without preparation 1.4 metres
T-90S = without preparation 1.2 metres

Trench

Al-Khalid = 2.7 m
T-90S = 2.8 m


Armament

Al-Khalid

(main): 1 x 125 mm gun 125mm Smooth Bore, Chrome Plated, Auto fret aged
Circular Carousel Type: (Cassette Type) 22 Rounds / Minute 6-8

FCS/GCS : Type: Image Stabilized (3rd generation director type stabilization), Optics: LASER protected (coaxial): 1 x 7.62 mm MG
(anti-aircraft): 1 x 12.7 mm MG
Smoke grenade dischargers: 2 x 6, can also lay smoke screen by injecting diesel into the exhaust outlets at the rear

GUNNER SIGHT : Type Integrated, Bi-axis Stabilized Day/Night, Tl, LRF
Magnification Dual, 3x & 1 Ox
Field of View 20° & 6°

COMMANDER SIGHT:
Type Panoramic,
Bi-Axis stabilized,

LRF, 2nd Generation IIT
Hunter-Killer Capability
Magnification 7.5x
Field of View 7 . 5
LRF : Type ND YAG
Range200 ~ 5000m
AUTO TRACKER: Tracking Error < 0.1 mils Interfaced with Gunner Day Sight & Tl


T-90S

1 x 125mm 2A46M smoothbore gun with 43 rounds.
...............1 x 12.7mm NSVT anti-aircraft gun with 300 rounds. [1]
...............1 x 7.62mm PKT co-axial machine gun with 2000 rounds.
...............1 x 5.45mm AKS-74 rifle, carried on storage rack, with 300 rounds.[2]

[1] The 12.7mm NSVT, mounted on the commander's contra-rotating copula which can be aimed and fired under complete armour protection, uses the PZU-7 machine gun sight and the 1ETs29 (with vertical stabilization) machine gun FCS (Fire Control System).

[2] The locally-produced 5.56mm INSAS Assault Rifle will likely be used instead.


Smoke Grenade Launchers: Mounted either side of the turret is a bank of six electrically operated 81mm smoke grenade launchers which are in a new low-angle configuration compared to those fitted to earlier Russian MBTs. The quick forming aerosol screening system comprises the four laser radiation sensors (two coarse and two fine receiving heads), the Type 902A Aerosol Forming Grenade Launch System dispensing 81mm 3D17 aerosol grenades and associated controls. The aerosol screening system detects laser illumination, determines its direction and type (laser range-finder or designator), generates warning signals, both audio and visual, and lays in automatic or semi-automatic modes, quick forming aerosol screens within three seconds at a distance of 50 to 80 metres from the tank. In addition, the tank can also lay its own smoke screen by injecting diesel fuel into the exhaust outlet located on the left side of the hull.

The 2A46M smoothbore gun is stabilised (Zhasmin 2E42-4 system) in two axes and is fitted with a thermal sleeve. The gun tube can be replaced without a need for dismantling inside the turret. The gun can fire various ammunition including APFSDS-T (Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot - Tracer), HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank), HE-FRAG (High Explosive Fragmentation) as well as shrapnel projectiles with time fuzes. In addition it can also fire a special HE-FRAG projectile that can be detonated over the target using the tank's fire-control system. Maximum rate of fire is at 7 rounds per minute. The gun can also fire the 9M119 Refleks-M (NATO: AT-11 Sniper-B) anti-tank guided missile system. The range of the missile is 75 to 5000 metres and takes 14.2 seconds to reach maximum range. The system is intended to engage tanks fitted with ERA (Explosive Reactive Armour) as well as low-flying air targets such as helicopters, at a range of up to 5 km. Hit probability is over 80%. The missile system fires either the 9M119 (3UBK14 weapon system) or the 9M119M (3UBK20 weapon system) missiles which have semi-automatic laser beam riding guidance and a hollow charge warhead. Missile weight is 23.4 kg. The gun's automatic loader will feed both ordnance and missiles.

Self-Protection

The hull and turret are protected by both conventional armour-plating and the latest generation Kontakt-5 ERA which provides protection against APFSDS (Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot) and HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) type projectiles. In addition to being fitted to the hull and turret, ERA panels are also fitted either side of the hull front to provide lateral protection to each side of the driver's compartment. The tank also has NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) protection equipment. The TShU1-7 Shtora-1 countermeasures system is not fitted.

Fire Control & Observation

The T-90S has the 1A45T IFCS (Integrated Fire Control System) which is automatic, but has a manual override for the commander. The IFCS comprises the gunner's day/night fire-control system, gunner's IR sight or thermal imaging sight, and commander's day/night sight-observation system. The fire control system comprises day sight-rangefinder with missile guidance channel, armament stabilizer and ballistic computer. The system is used by the commander for gun and machine gun fire control.

Propulsion

The T-90S will be powered by a 1,000 hp V-92S2 four-stroke V-12 diesel engine. This new engine, fitted with a turbo-supercharger, offers impressive specific power and specific fuel consumption characteristics. The tank can carry up to 1600 litres of fuel in the main, armour plated fuel tanks and fuel drums. The tank is provided with a snorkel for deep fording (up to 5 metres of water) with equipment which can be deployed in 20 minutes. The mechanical transmission includes primary reduction gear, two planetary final gearboxes and two planetary final drives. The running gear features torsion bar suspension with hydraulic shock absorbers at 1, 2 and 6 road wheel stations and tracks with rubber-metallic pin hinges.

Miscellaneous Information

A new track has been developed and tested for the T-90S that not only has a longer life but also has replaceable rubber pads that can be quickly removed. Standard equipment includes NBC protection, fire detection & suppression system, nose-mounted dozer blade and a deep fording kit. The tank is fitted with an air conditioning system for operations in high ambient temperatures.



link :-withheld............T-90's S version is inferior to AK (basic) For the updated and arjuns we have AK-I and AK-II in future.

However it doesnt matter how a weapon look on paper but it makes the difference in how u use them in the battlefield.

Courtesy; A Russian member of the forum @Moscow.

PA TANKS comparison with contempory tanks

A lil correction:

AK ammo : 39+10

Rate of fire :8-9 rounds.


APS: VARTA-1

Sorry I didn't read your e tire post...

 

[Dazzler]

my two cents...

firstly, the topic was about t-90 being inferior than Alkhalid right? When on earth did i say that?? i hate to boast friends bu i can literally write a book on inherit flaws that could have been easily handled by the Russians and yet they neglected. The blame here is only to be given to the company that developed the t-72, oh i mean, he t-90 ::rofl

Uralvagonzavod have often lacked original ideas and even worse, they lacked the military support till the 60s since Soviet armour corp chaps liked Morozov a lot and for a good reason. the more i read about that guy the more i am amazed at his sheer brilliance and the ability to foresee the battle of the future, the cutting edge technological advancements offered by the t-64A, to the concept vehicle hat never saw the sunshine, the "to be" t-74 meant to replace everything up to the t-62 back then IF approved by military establishment.

After a little intro, let me come to the t-90, though the story goes well before the first t-90, or the 72 BU that was simply renamed as 90 since the horrid reputation earned by its inferior S variant that was nothing more than a t-72 manufactured with inferior armour and way inferior ammo to fire. This mbt didnt even have a ballistic computer but a simple calculator and no fire control rather the a coincidence range finder, an obsolate IR lamp with range no more than 200 meters.

The t-90 development was repeatedly hampered by two factors:

lack of budget since the dissolution of the Soviet Union

lack of innovation by the Ural bureau chaps in charge of development

The only thing that has been good in the t-90 is its armour, however, this armour is not installed installed in the export S variants which include the Indian t-90 and the Algerian S versions. The algerian ones do have a slight edge over the indian ones since they are able to autotrack the enemy,. However, the autotracking mechanism is so difficult that it consistently loses lock on the target, which shows the technology was prematurely included in the package just because the algerians requested it.


next is the crampy interior, this one is BIG FLAW in my opinion and its good to see the issue finally addressed in the latest MS variant, though the image i posted still shows it is crampy. Te reason why a small interior matters, is that it leaves little room for the crew to move around, and even less room for installation of necessary equipment such as an environment control system, a battle management system, integrated fire control support measures.Look at the western tanks, and even the japanese type-90, which is still a 50+ behemoth, but has quite an advanced fire control system and autotrack+ auto lock mechanism.

Same is with the French Leclerc. Another issue is the lack of a panoramic sight and the hunter killer capability which is still not so common even in some modern mbts. The fact is that these two features gives such an advantage to your mbt that you literally hold an upper hand every time you face the enemy and the first shot comes from you, not him. Unfortunately, the t-90S, M versions still lack that feature.


More to continue in next post... .

 

[GURU DUTT]

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler asked me to open this thread.


Edit some moderator thought it would be funny to change the title from T-90 to Arjun.

He wanted me to open a thread about the T-90SM/T-90A vs Al-Khalid because he made many claims but refused to answer them in the very thread he made the comments in. Or to be blunt he was pounding his chest and then backed out, then told me to open a new thread.


Going back weeks now Dazzler claims he knows the classified armor of the T-90, yet after asking him a dozen times or so to reveal this armor he refuses.

Another claim is that Russian battle field management is garbage and so is the fire control system on the T-90 yet when it comes to providing hard facts and details he has no answer. And what T-90 did you get to sit in again? Where was this again? Still have no answered that either.



Lets see how shitty the T-90s fire control system is:





Old article with broken link:

During one of the displays, T-90 struck 7 targets in 54 seconds. All were at the distance between 1500-2500m and the tank was on the move at 25km/h. While returning to position, the layer gave the control to the commander who used the gunner mode to fire to the rear of the vehicle and hit 4 more targets.



during the official trials of T-90, all of the ammunitions were fired by young conscripts who just finished training. All of the rounds – 24 of them, hit targets at a distance of 4-5km.


Indian crews quickly mastered the T-90S, they also did not have problems with the fire control and thermo-vision systems. Just after several training sessions Lt. Kapur of the Indian army acted as layer who accurately fired on to the targets at 2500-3000m. Officers from one of the panzer corps needed 20 minutes to familiarize with T-90S and successfully complete the task of destroying 4 targets at night from a distance of 3100m at an ambient temperature of 47°C.

i am sure you may have seen this, if not, this is a basic type-59II with inferior 100mm gun and a basic fire control system which is the ICFS-69. The target is 5 km away..


ISI - this tank has a range of 2500 | Facebook

 

[ptldM3]

i am sure you may have seen this, if not, this is a basic type-59II with inferior 100mm gun and a basic fire control system which is the ICFS-69. The target is 5 km away..


ISI - this tank has a range of 2500 | Facebook

What does this have to do with the topic? You made many claims about the T-90 and have yet to back a single one with proof. Posting pictures of the T-90 interior or a type-59 shooting at a hill is an attempt to distract the readers and avoid answering. Remember you made the claim that the T-90 is inferior to the Al-Khalid and then you started making wild claims that you have not been able to back.

You either answer those claims or admit you were full of yourself.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

A lil correction:

AK ammo : 39+10

Rate of fire :8-9 rounds.


APS: VARTA-1

Sorry I didn't read your e tire post...

AK's (basic) stats are compared.

 

[Dazzler]

What does this have to do with the topic? You made many claims about the T-90 and have yet to back a single one with proof. Posting pictures of the T-90 interior or a type-59 shooting at a hill is an attempt to distract the readers and avoid answering. Remember you made the claim that the T-90 is inferior to the Al-Khalid and then you started making wild claims that you have not been able to back.

You either answer those claims or admit you were full of yourself.

t-90 is inferior to Alkhalid no doubt about that. in three categories at least...

fire control system as i have proved unless you are blind or something..

engine power (1000hp/ 1200hp), transmission, manual vs auto+ multiple reverse speed for upto 35 km backward movement for Alkhalid.

Anything else?.