T-129 helis for P.A confirmed? PM Pakistan

[Donatello]

Yes well then how do you expect the Army to fight when the enemy helicopters come in above and take out 200 Al Khalid tanks with missiles from Helcopters ? The Al Khalids don't come with anti helicopter weapons - ? do they

The baktarshikens we got only work if a solider sets it up in open , if enemy has a helicopter shooting away while hoovering do you think the soliders will get a chance to setup those baktarshikens ?

Or how about scenarios when 20,000 soldiers are stuck on a difficult mountain terrain and they need food and petrol supplies how will the
F16 land on a mountain

Or How about When you have a natural desaster and you need to rush in supplies to 300 people stranded where there are no fancy airport runways

Or How about you plan to neutralize 30-40 Enemy combatants in urban areas ? The F16 will fly over the building over and over again , the pilot can hoover over and shot and kill running combatants on foot or in vehicles ? can he


The bottom line ins Helicoptors provide a powerful Punch against opposing nation's Tanks and ground units -

Yes its not good vs Fighter planes but its role is for support for ground unit's success-



We need 100 Transport helicopters
We need 100 Attack configuration choopers
We need 100 Multipurpose Helicopters for All purpose usage


The chooper is also a important vehicle to move troops from one location to another and to fly them also out from danger out to safer higher grounds -

Its a tactical Item -

Currently our Army with no Helicopters is no different then Iraq's Army it can't protect its airspace and it has no helicopters to launch deadly attacks on enemy Tanks with rockets

The helicopter is mainly suppose to reside with Army units for their operation for ground success -

The fighter planes are more for providing High Altitude and Air Superiority - Helicopters are not for Air Superiority but more as a added tactical item for Generals on ground

Heck you can move 20 commandos behind enemy lines with a helicopter and they do all sorta funky things ....Helicopters are a MUST

And not to mention - just providing that extra COVER for ground units - from other army

Fighter planes are like Hammer you use it to put nail in wall
The Helicopters are more like screw drivers to put scres in the wall

If the Army needs to screw enemy needs helicopters
if it needs to nail down a Enemy it will use F16, Thunders, and J10B

Also I have never seen a F16 airlift a injured solider before nor has it ever produced a escort to a group of military convoy while flying low altitude and provideing eye sight 360 degrees to ground realities from all sides so the military convoy is not ambused ??

F16 will do a flyby and then come back 15 min later after burning up half of its fuel and then it will need to land back in airport leaving the military convoy at mercy of enemy

Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands.

Anyway, i was just referring to combat choppers.

You don't run supplies and logistics with them, or do you?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

> Helicopters *Attack/Transport
> Transport planes
> Frigates and Destroyers
> High Altitude Missiles

Are all items that are missing in our Army /Airforce / Navy

Any asset that gives our units a tactical advantage is missing besides the Nuke and Missiles

I just was honestly suprised that we don't have Helicopters and we still are flying dinasors from 70's in our fleet

In Any urban setting if a garasoned building is encountered by troups sometimes its good to bring in a gun ship to bring it down

Sometimes when you are up against 3-4 enemy tanks having support from Helicopter helps you destroy the Tanks with rocket

And lets not forget a helicopter can drop 10-16 soldiers on a building's roof

Hope we induct 100-150 Helicopter between 2010 - 2014 specially the fantastic ones being made in China and Turkey

I don't care much about the cobra and sanction just too much red tape don't wana deal with that

It would be wonderful if we lay rest the helicopters we have from 60-70's and get brand NEW ones now

 

[PAFAce]

Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands.

Anyway, i was just referring to combat choppers.

You don't run supplies and logistics with them, or do you?

They're primarily there for close-air-support purposes to support the charge of Armored formations and stop enemy Armored formations.

The way the PAA uses them is inspired by a Ninja, if you will. They use the concept of nap-of-the-earth flying and utilize ground cover and distance to hide, and then attack the enemy from flanks. Think of it as air-borne guerilla tactics. The PAA doesn't fly their attack choppers more than 10 feet off the ground for long periods of time when in combat. The exception is, of course, when they want to fly high (for example in Swat). The Cobras don't operate in formations of more than 2 or 3 at a time.

This is very much unlike the Indian doctrine where they have their Hinds constantly making flying rounds over the advancing columns, attacking the enemy and returning to the rear to let the next batch continue. The Hinds, due to their rotor-wash, cannot fly within 15-20 feet of the ground. The height they fly at and the size makes them a very clear target, which is why they constantly rotate and don't hover. They also fly in larger numbers, much like an airborne armored division (juicy targets for our SAMs).

In a recent thread where speculation was raised that the PAA was considering the Mi-25, I said that's not possible, because that helicopter completely goes against the Pakistani way of thinking. It's large, heavy, not very maneuverable and has tremendous rotor wash. Flying that 10-feet off the ground would be a disaster.

By comparing fighter jets to attack helicopters, you're comparing eagles to honey-bees. Even the Su-30MKI, with all its powerful radars, would have a tough time spotting a sleek ground-hugging Cobra/T-129 from beyond visual range. I mean, come on, we're talking the PAA here, a fighting force that routinely flies million-dollar metallic beasts under transmission wires.

 

[Rank]

50 Supra cobra's 50 T129 ...

deadly force along with our tanks...

Mi17 and if possible chinook and other heavy lifter helicopter will make ground forces more power.

 

[Mani2020]

for me range, speed and max take off weight are very important and Super Cobra beats iT129 if we go by your numbers. also cobra has more powerful engine
only service cieling and rate of climb is where cobra is lagging.

There is nothing more important than embargoes and in that T-129 beats super cobras all ends up.

As T-129 will allow us freedom of use and no embargo kinda thing

 

[Irfan Baloch]

how come the cobra engine is powerful than T-129 if the rate of climb and the service cieling of cobra is lagging?????????

thats how

T-129
Powerplant: 2× LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each

Super cobra
Powerplant: 2× General Electric T700-401 turboshaft, 1,690 shp (1,300 kW) each


this explains the max take off weight advantage cobra has. (more weapons/ ammo)

by lagging I didnt mena by large numbers.
also I didnt mention the weapons because they are pretty much at par and interchangable.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

There is nothing more important than embargoes and in that T-129 beats super cobras all ends up.

As T-129 will allow us freedom of use and no embargo kinda thing

very valid and good point..

by the way.. how much of the equipment is "NOT" Western/US in T-129?

I can see a lot of familiar names in armament section only..
you see if they only put a stop on a small part which is very vital it can bring the whole system dowm to a hault.

if T-129 is 100% Turkish then I am all in favour and will ignore those differences I highlighted earlier

 

[Jigs]

very valid and good point..

by the way.. how much of the equipment is "NOT" Western/US in T-129?

I can see a lot of familiar names in armament section only..
you see if they only put a stop on a small part which is very vital it can bring the whole system dowm to a hault.

if T-129 is 100% Turkish then I am all in favour and will ignore those differences I highlighted earlier

If you mean 100% in rights and exporting to 3rd countries then yes it is 100% Turkish. Part wise besides avionics and weapons the design and engines are not Turkish. Oh and the 20mm cannon is not Turkish aswell.

 

[black_magic pk]

from china we are getting ToT, even deals from france,germany and from turkey we are getting cheap stuff:S, we can just get ToT from branded sellers, will these stuff even long enuf, like turkey guarenteeing us abt its life span??

 

[cabatli_53]

thats how

T-129
Powerplant: 2× LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each

Super cobra
Powerplant: 2× General Electric T700-401 turboshaft, 1,690 shp (1,300 kW) each


this explains the max take off weight advantage cobra has. (more weapons/ ammo)

The Attack Helos' engine powers can not be a sole indicator of being powerfull than rivals. The most important factor to judge the performance criterias of copters is the power to weight ratio of those systems. Have you ever checked the total take off weight of AH-1W's that 1690 shp engine powered ? Let's take a look of them.

T-129: Total takeoff weight : 5000kg/ Engine:1350x2shp(2700)= 540 shp/tonnes
AH-1W: Total take off weight: 6690kg/ Engine: 1690x2 shp=505shp/ Tonnes
Eurocopter Tiger HAP: Total Take off weight: 6000kg/ Engine:1170x2 shp = 390 shp/Tonnes



I think This figures are enough to tell Why T-129 is ahead of 1W in terms of performance criterias...

 

[cabatli_53]

I picture: The HOVER with max. payload.
II picture: Max. Altitude figures comparison
III picture: The ranges of both rival attack helicopters

 

[Frankenstein]

VISITING PDF AFTER A LONG TIME, THATS A SUPERB NEWS!!,

 

[cabatli_53]

Sir, whats the difference between the two? to me both look the same... what am I missing?

Longer fuselage, streghtened wing station to carry more payload, modified engine/new transmissions section, modified forehead with new E/O, new main rotor systems, new armour system, RAM paints, completely different and fully digital avionics, communication systems, EW counter measure systems, missiles, digital tehnologies applied such as "Obstable detection system, digital moving map, HMDU, Mission computer, costumer friendly software and pilot interface, Milimetric wave radar..."

 

[cabatli_53]

As far as I know, Cirit missiles passed the serial production phase and Ground firing trials of UMTAS was finished. In 1-2 months ago, AH-1P test-bed helo has been prepared to integrate UMTAS for trials.

YouTube - Roketsan UMTAS and Cirit Missiles Trials (HD)

At the latest section of video, It is Cirit 2.75 Inch laser guided missiles that hit the rectangle target and container as well.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The Attack Helos' engine powers can not be a sole indicator of being powerfull than rivals. The most important factor to judge the performance criterias of copters is the power to weight ratio of those systems. Have you ever checked the total take off weight of AH-1W's that 1690 shp engine powered ? Let's take a look of them.

T-129: Total takeoff weight : 5000kg/ Engine:1350x2shp(2700)= 540 shp/tonnes
AH-1W: Total take off weight: 6690kg/ Engine: 1690x2 shp=505shp/ Tonnes
Eurocopter Tiger HAP: Total Take off weight: 6000kg/ Engine:1170x2 shp = 390 shp/Tonnes



I think This figures are enough to tell Why T-129 is ahead of 1W in terms of performance criterias...

Thanks for clarifying.. not sure how you arrived at 540 sph/ton for T-129 and 500 sph/ ton for Cobra.. my figures are a bit low but still T-129 beats Cobra as per your conclusion


1 ton = 907.18474

Max take off weight Kg Tons
T-129 5000 =5000/ 90718474 =5.51
Cobra 6690 =6690/ 90718474 =7.37

powerplants
T-129 2 x 1361 = 2722 SPH
Cobra 2 x 1690 = 3380 SPH

T-129 2722/5.51= 493.87 SPH/ton
Cobra 3380/7.37= 458.34 SPH/ton