Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Owais]

Both aircraft's development process have started in almost same time frame that in early 90's on the other hand the MKK decision took at late 90's.

when I talked about development process?? am talking about DEVELOPED jet! China didn't developed J10 at that time. hell Its still in process of getting mature

I believe the thread name should be like "Counter Su-30MKI with JF-17". MKI is not an alien aircraft to invisible against those missiles, the point is, to fire those missiles JF-17 has to reach its maximum BVRAAM range some what like <100 km that is really a dead game against MKI.

so go and make that thread. and please explain that how JF17 equipped with BVR cannot takeon Mki. not to forget that Mki's Huge Rcs make it detected from morethan 100km with KLJ10.

Dont take it personally but the way you talk it seems like you made the JF-17 yourself lol Common people when you guys talk about awacs, i hope you know that India has the Phalcon awacs from isreal. We already have one in serive with 6 on order. The phalcon is way more advanced that the saab 2000 system that pakistan has and that is a fact which you cannot argue against.

what can I say if Talking with facts made you think like that. ofcourse IAF have phalcon. so that means MKI+Phalcon vs JF17+Saab2000=MKI vs JF17?? No way dude! saab2000's advantage cannot be nullified by phalcon

Secondly even with awacs support the JF-17 will have to use its own radar to fire the missile which again is not even close to the radar on the MKI.

I have no Idea what are you trying to say! are you trying to say that an MKi with RCS of 10.2m2 CANNOT be detected by JF's radar from 100+km??

People tell me that the JF-17 is light weight, can you please explain how? it does not use any composites and is a full metal frame. it weighs just as much as any other aircraft.

so you think that the aircraft in which composites are used are in light weight category? Think again! you need to first check the weight of JF and then analyze in which category it belongs to

Yes thats for sure that the MKI weighs more but it also houses a much more advanced engine and have 2 TVC. Dog fight or BVR fight, JF-17 is not even in the same league as the MKI. The JF-17 is economical jet that can be effective only in numbers against the MKI. One on one fight with the MKI will be very deadly for the JF-17

Again same BS! you even didnt read my post regarding TVC! then what is the use of flooding that forum??

Guys common please again dont come up with wish list for the JF-17. Even if Pakistan uses Awacs it will not be used with the JF-17 because the PAF will be too busy protecting its F-16 which are superior to the JF-17.

Thats the most funniest thing I've ever heard! yea PAF will protect its F16 instead of its airspace lol. you made me laugh champ!

 

[MZUBAIR]

so go and make that thread. and please explain that how JF17 equipped with BVR cannot takeon Mki. not to forget that Mki's Huge Rcs make it detected from morethan 100km with KLJ10.

Thanxs for nice post.
I would like to know more(bold) what u quoted.

 

[Haanzo]

what can I say if Talking with facts made you think like that. ofcourse IAF have phalcon. so that means MKI+Phalcon vs JF17+Saab2000=MKI vs JF17?? No way dude! saab2000's advantage cannot be nullified by phalcon

can you please explain the above instead of firing on your keyboard

 

[ironman]

when I talked about development process?? am talking about DEVELOPED jet! China didn't developed J10 at that time. hell Its still in process of getting mature

Are you forgetting that J-10's first flight is on 1998 and care to explain what do you mean by mature ? ..in that sense F-16 is not matured enough yet.

so go and make that thread. and please explain that how JF17 equipped with BVR cannot takeon Mki. not to forget that Mki's Huge Rcs make it detected from morethan 100km with KLJ10.

KLJ-10 will sit like a duck in front of N011M BARS anywhere its range (leaving the role of Elta EL/L-8222)... Huge RCS

 

[Sapper]

KLJ-10 will sit like a duck in front of N011M BARS anywhere its range (leaving the role of Elta EL/L-8222)... Huge RCS

Meanwhile ... Su30 will stand like empire state building
Dear, I know Su30 has a great Radar, much better than that of any possible upgrade of F16s, FC20s and JF17s of PAF in near future, but do remember that F-16 has 1.2~2m2 radar cross section as compared to 10~15m2 of Su30s.

If the RCS of Su30 is reduced by 2~3 TIMES, then the excellent radar it possesses will be a great threat to its adversaries ... while in current specifications, an F16E (UAE not Pakistan) will detect Su30 some 50 miles before Su30 manages to get a lock on Viper. While Pakistani Vipers and Indian Su30s will be almost evenly matched against each other (minus BVR missile and ECM/EECM comparison). JF17's might be a bit inferior to F16-B52, so it will be a bit on losing side, but we still don't know the ACTUAL details of JF17's RCS or its radar (even if it is KLJ10).

If Su30 manages to get to WVR, it will really be a formidable enemy with its excellent sustained turn rate, excellent TWR, great thrust vectoring and marvelous post stall maneuvering, but at that time, the situation of fighting over friendly or enemy territory will be the deciding factor. If fighting over friendly skies, Su30 will have chance to kill and survive, on the other hand, over hostile skies, the possibility to KILL and return safely is next to none.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[desiman]

when I talked about development process?? am talking about DEVELOPED jet! China didn't developed J10 at that time. hell Its still in process of getting mature

so go and make that thread. and please explain that how JF17 equipped with BVR cannot takeon Mki. not to forget that Mki's Huge Rcs make it detected from morethan 100km with KLJ10.



what can I say if Talking with facts made you think like that. ofcourse IAF have phalcon. so that means MKI+Phalcon vs JF17+Saab2000=MKI vs JF17?? No way dude! saab2000's advantage cannot be nullified by phalcon


I have no Idea what are you trying to say! are you trying to say that an MKi with RCS of 10.2m2 CANNOT be detected by JF's radar from 100+km??


so you think that the aircraft in which composites are used are in light weight category? Think again! you need to first check the weight of JF and then analyze in which category it belongs to

Again same BS! you even didnt read my post regarding TVC! then what is the use of flooding that forum??



Thats the most funniest thing I've ever heard! yea PAF will protect its F16 instead of its airspace lol. you made me laugh champ!

LOL ok Owais, i am not an expert on jets so i try to be one but i know enough to prove what i am saying by facts not just words, ok lets start.

1)Just by having BVR does not mean you can go around shooting any plane in the sky. If you know more about BVR then i hope you know that firstly MKI'S radar range is far greater than the JF-17 and the MKI houses a very strong jammer. It is one of the reason's why the MKI can even act as a mini AWACS. Also with this far superior agility and speed it can outrun almost anything but that depends on the pilot. Just by firing a BVR missile, it does not mean a 100% kill rate. And if you do think that the MKI will fire its BVR a long time before the JF-17 does.

2) just by having a huge rcs it does not mean its easy to shoot down the MKI. LOL buddy i respect the fact that you like the JF-17, even i do, its a nice aircraft but that does not mean it can go and shoot down as aircraft that is way more advanced than it just because it has a huge rcs, lol there is way more to shooting down an aircraft than just seeing it on your radar because of it rcs. And if you know anything about the MKI, it is meant to give of a huge rcs to almost intimidate the opponent, it is not trying to be stealth aircraft unlike western jets.

3)I did not say that composites are the only way for a aircraft to me light. Ill give you the specs myself -
General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 14.0 m [73] (45.9 ft)
Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles) [73] (31 ft)
Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 24.4 m² [73] (263 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,411 kg (14,134 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles [5][74] (20,062 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [74] (28,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [2][7] (11,106 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN [2][75] (18,973 lbf)
G-limit: +8.5 g [2]
Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb) [5]
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [5][34] (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
Combat radius: 1,352 km [2] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,000 km [7] (2,175 mi)
Service ceiling: 16,700 m [7] (54,790 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.99 [2][5]
Armament


Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30 mm GSh-30-2)
Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance,
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm unguided rocket pods [77]

and the MKI -
General characteristics

Crew: 2
Length: 21.935 m (72.97 ft)
Wingspan: 14.7 m (48.2 ft)
Height: 6.36 m (20.85 ft)
Wing area: 62.0 m² (667 ft²)
Empty weight: 18,400 kg [1] (40,565 lb)
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg (54,895 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN (29,449 lbf) each
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h) at 11,000 m (36,000 ft)
Range: 5,000 km (2,700 nmi) at altitude; (1,270 km, 690 nmi near ground level)(With Internal Fuel Tank)
Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
Rate of climb: >355 m/s (70,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 401 kg/m² (98 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.07 (at loaded weight & 1.15 with 50% fuel)
If you read this properly then you can easily see which is the better aircraft, even after being way lighter than the MKI, the JF-17 does not even come close to the performance of the MKI, so the next time you say that just because you say that the JF-17 is lighter it will beat the MKI support it with some facts.

3) lets compare the missile and armament now Owais -
JF-17
Armament


Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30 mm GSh-30-2)
Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance,
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm unguided rocket pods [77]
Missiles:

Air-to-air missiles:
Short range: AIM-9L/M, PL-5E, PL-9C
Beyond visual range: PL-12 / SD-10
Air-to-surface missiles:
Anti-radiation missiles
Anti-ship missiles: AM-39 Exocet
Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM
Bombs:

Unguided bombs:
Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb
Precision guided munitions (PGM):
GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,[6] LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs [76]
Satellite-guided bombs [6]
Others:
Up to 3 external fuel drop-tanks (1× under-fuselage 800 litres, 2× under-wing 800/1100 litres each) for extended range/loitering time

Now lets look at the MKI -
Air to Air Missiles:

6 × R-27R/AA-10A/Astra[46] semi-active radar homing medium range AAM of range 80 km.
6 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
2 × R-27P (AA-10C) passive radar seeker, long range AAM
10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km
3 × Novator KS-172 AAM-L Indian/Russian air-to-air missile designed as an "AWACS killer"
Air to Surface Missiles:

2 × Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile, 115 km
2 × Kh-59MK Laser guided standoff Missile, 130 km
4 × Kh-35 Anti-Ship Missile, 130 km
3 × PJ-10 Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile,300 km
6 × Kh-31P/A anti-radar missile, 70 km
6 × Kh-29T/L laser guided missile, 30 km
4 × S-8 rocket pods (80 unguided rockets)
4 × S-13 rocket pods (20 unguided rockets)
Bombs:

6 × KAB-500L laser guided bombs
3 × KAB-1500L laser guided bombs
8 × FAB-500T dumb bombs
28 × OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs
32 × OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs
8 × RBK-500 cluster bombs
The air to air version of the bahmos will also be used on the MKI soon.

As you can see again, there is no comparison. So the next time you say that the jf-17 can shoot down the MKI with BVR missiles, prove it.

4) The phalcon can jam and almost render the saab system useless, i will post you the links soon for that so that you cant argue . You can also read about the phalcon anywhere to understand the true strength of this amazing awacs, the saab system is not even close.

5)LOL the f-16 in the PAF are their best aircrafts by far and almost double thee cost of the jf-17, im pretty sure in the event of a war, PAF would want to spend most of its resources protecting the f-16 when they are facing the IAF. Loosing 2 jf-17 is still better than loosing 1 f-16 lol. The f-16 are proven and deadly asset to the PAF and are truly aircraft that the IAF needs to think about specially the new ones that the PAF are getting which i think are block 52. Buddy the JF-17 is economical replacement for the PAFs mirage 3 and f7 . So please again dont compare it with the MKI which is high end aircraft and the best at what it does. And ya if you think what i said was funny, continue to laugh because thats what i am doing right now at your comments lol Please base you comments on fact not just big sounding words like bvr, awacs, tvc lol
Feel free to argue again and try to read this whole post before replying lol

 

[desiman]

Meanwhile ... Su30 will stand like empire state building
Dear, I know Su30 has a great Radar, much better than that of any possible upgrade of F16s, FC20s and JF17s of PAF in near future, but do remember that F-16 has 1.2~2m2 radar cross section as compared to 10~15m2 of Su30s.

If the RCS of Su30 is reduced by 2~3 TIMES, then the excellent radar it possesses will be a great threat to its adversaries ... while in current specifications, an F16E (UAE not Pakistan) will detect Su30 some 50 miles before Su30 manages to get a lock on Viper. While Pakistani Vipers and Indian Su30s will be almost evenly matched against each other (minus BVR missile and ECM/EECM comparison). JF17's might be a bit inferior to F16-B52, so it will be a bit on losing side, but we still don't know the ACTUAL details of JF17's RCS or its radar (even if it is KLJ10).

If Su30 manages to get to WVR, it will really be a formidable enemy with its excellent sustained turn rate, excellent TWR, great thrust vectoring and marvelous post stall maneuvering, but at that time, the situation of fighting over friendly or enemy territory will be the deciding factor. If fighting over friendly skies, Su30 will have chance to kill and survive, on the other hand, over hostile skies, the possibility to KILL and return safely is next to none.

Regards,
Sapper

This is the funniet comment by far lol ya your right sapper the JF-17 is sooo good that it will shoot down every jet in the IAF and come back safely where else the MKI will be shot down before it even enter Pakistani airspace by an F-7 lol Please base your comments on reality not on your dreams lol

 

[gambit]

2) just by having a huge rcs it does not mean its easy to shoot down the MKI. LOL buddy i respect the fact that you like the JF-17, even i do, its a nice aircraft but that does not mean it can go and shoot down as aircraft that is way more advanced than it just because it has a huge rcs, lol there is way more to shooting down an aircraft than just seeing it on your radar because of it rcs. And if you know anything about the MKI, it is meant to give of a huge rcs to almost intimidate the opponent, it is not trying to be stealth aircraft unlike western jets.

Now that is an outright silly statement. By that argument, air forces worldwide would be clamoring to either build or buy the largest aircrafts they could. By that argument, why did we bother with our 'stealth' aircrafts? Why not just send up B-52s and any potential enemy would run the moment they had a gander at their radar scopes? Please refrain from making statements like this.

 

[desiman]

Now that is an outright silly statement. By that argument, air forces worldwide would be clamoring to either build or buy the largest aircrafts they could. By that argument, why did we bother with our 'stealth' aircrafts? Why not just send up B-52s and any potential enemy would run the moment they had a gander at their radar scopes? Please refrain from making statements like this.

Gambit i respect your argument and i agree also but i think you got me wrong, what i meant to say is that the MKI does not try for stealth as its not meant to be a stealth aircraft unlike the f-22 or jsf. The mki just like other Russian fighters till now relies on agility and firepower to provide itself with that sting it needs. Instead of stealth, the MKI uses a great radar, superior maneuverability ability and deadly firepower to get its point across. Not every aircraft plans to be be stealthy. I hope you understood my point now.

 

[deep.ocean]

Now that is an outright silly statement. By that argument, air forces worldwide would be clamoring to either build or buy the largest aircrafts they could. By that argument, why did we bother with our 'stealth' aircrafts? Why not just send up B-52s and any potential enemy would run the moment they had a gander at their radar scopes? Please refrain from making statements like this.

What silly statement? this whole thread is looking silly to me, we are comparing a 3.5th gen plane with 4.5th gen plane, while their roles are totally different. You can look Su 30 from a distance of 300 or 500 KMs but point is that what else you can do instead of only watching it. You can not dare to go near of Su-30, it would be like suicide.. You need long range BVR missiles that should be used before Su-30 locks on you... I suspect whether JF-17 can reach any near to MKI with in 100 KMs range...

off-topic but I think Mig-21-Bison will do most of the kills in near future due its Smaller RCS and good BVR capabilities.. So you guys need to compare how JF-17 will counter Mig-21 Bison supported by Phalcon...

 

[IceCold]

What silly statement? this whole thread is looking silly to me, we are comparing a 3.5th gen plane with 4.5th gen plane, while their roles are totally different. You can look Su 30 from a distance of 300 or 500 KMs but point is that what else you can do instead of only watching it. You can not dare to go near of Su-30, it would be like suicide.. You need long range BVR missiles that should be used before Su-30 locks on you... I suspect whether JF-17 can reach any near to MKI with in 100 KMs range...

off-topic but I think Mig-21-Bison will do most of the kills in near future due its Smaller RCS and good BVR capabilities.. So you guys need to compare how JF-17 will counter Mig-21 Bison supported by Phalcon...

get a grip and while i certainly would not want to comment unnecessarily on your rant, Is JF-17 a 3.5th generation according to you? Where did you get those facts.....let be guess BR.

 

[deep.ocean]

get a grip and while i certainly would not want to comment unnecessarily on your rant, Is JF-17 a 3.5th generation according to you? Where did you get those facts.....let be guess BR.

Sorry for my rant, but i found some comments on f16.net and world affair board..
plz visit these forums...

 

[desiman]

What silly statement? this whole thread is looking silly to me, we are comparing a 3.5th gen plane with 4.5th gen plane, while their roles are totally different. You can look Su 30 from a distance of 300 or 500 KMs but point is that what else you can do instead of only watching it. You can not dare to go near of Su-30, it would be like suicide.. You need long range BVR missiles that should be used before Su-30 locks on you... I suspect whether JF-17 can reach any near to MKI with in 100 KMs range...

off-topic but I think Mig-21-Bison will do most of the kills in near future due its Smaller RCS and good BVR capabilities.. So you guys need to compare how JF-17 will counter Mig-21 Bison supported by Phalcon...

lol Nice try deep ocean but i have tried to show them the reality and its not working lol i dont know why no one can just accept the fact that there is no competition in any way between the MKI and the jf-17 and just close this thread lol

 

[Sapper]

This is the funniet comment by far lol ya your right sapper the JF-17 is sooo good that it will shoot down every jet in the IAF and come back safely where else the MKI will be shot down before it even enter Pakistani airspace by an F-7 lol Please base your comments on reality not on your dreams lol

OMG ... did you even READ my message ... i said JF17 will be on the losing side ...
but gave some FACTS about the latest generation of F16s that will be able to match Su30's radar detection advantage, but still may lack the superior maneuvering of Su30 in WVR.

Read my post clearly ... and try to understand what is written in it ... i hope its not beyond your comprehension. For ease ... i am copy pasting my OPINION in this post once again


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper View Post
Meanwhile ... Su30 will stand like empire state building
Dear, I know Su30 has a great Radar, much better than that of any possible upgrade of F16s, FC20s and JF17s of PAF in near future, but do remember that F-16 has 1.2~2m2 radar cross section as compared to 10~15m2 of Su30s.

If the RCS of Su30 is reduced by 2~3 TIMES, then the excellent radar it possesses will be a great threat to its adversaries ... while in current specifications, an F16E (UAE not Pakistan) will detect Su30 some 50 miles before Su30 manages to get a lock on Viper. While Pakistani Vipers and Indian Su30s will be almost evenly matched against each other (minus BVR missile and ECM/EECM comparison). JF17's might be a bit inferior to F16-B52, so it will be a bit on losing side, but we still don't know the ACTUAL details of JF17's RCS or its radar (even if it is KLJ10).

If Su30 manages to get to WVR, it will really be a formidable enemy with its excellent sustained turn rate, excellent TWR, great thrust vectoring and marvelous post stall maneuvering, but at that time, the situation of fighting over friendly or enemy territory will be the deciding factor. If fighting over friendly skies, Su30 will have chance to kill and survive, on the other hand, over hostile skies, the possibility to KILL and return safely is next to none.

Regards,
Sapper

try to stick to what i have said ... I never said JF17 could kill everything in IAF nor did i imply that f-7 will be able to bring down Su30s.
Please do remember that my comment "on the other hand, over hostile skies, the possibility to KILL and return safely is next to none." is because of excellent Air defence SAM systems employed by both nations and not due to the capabilities of Mig-21 CAPs.

 

[deep.ocean]

lol Nice try deep ocean but i have tried to show them the reality and its not working lol i dont know why no one can just accept the fact that there is no competition in any way between the MKI and the jf-17 and just close this thread lol

no-one can do anything.. its called "blind faith"