Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Owais]

Now thats an stupid answer. At one time members say that JF-17 beat MKI in every field and at the same time you say China dont need it. My dear friend do you really think that if China can make a plane better than MKI, it will not immediately induct them into its forces?? It will give China an upper hand. Why they will go for other planes when they are themselves making good planes.

Indigenous production of JF-17 will definitely cost less to China and if JF-17 is better than they will get a better plane in less price and then why they opted for MKK and that too 100's of them???

I am not saying that JF-17 is a bad plane but dont you think that it raises serious doubt regarding comparing it with su-30. Instead China is developing a better plane to induct which will be definitely better than JF-17.

Thanks......

China opted for MKK before J10/JF17 were developed. now they have enough money to buy J10! which have more range and payload. thats why they are not going for JF17.

MKI only have Radar advantage over JF17 and it will be nullified by AWACs support. please debate with facts instead of claiming that super duper MKI is better. I know that MKI is better but I also wana know that How a small, lightweight, highly maneuverable fighter cannot stand against a heavy, Huge MKI when it have AWACs support?? also, I have a point for your MKi's TVC. Do you even know how TVC works? lemme give you and Idea that TVC is not Effective at high speed because it creates so much drag due to inertia and your plane starts loosing altitude. so TVC at slow speed may be effective but can the use of TVC save Mki from a BVR/WVRAAM coming with 20+gs and speed of mach4?

 

[ironman]

China opted for MKK before J10/JF17 were developed.

False..

now they have enough money to buy J10! which have more range and payload. thats why they are not going for JF17.

Yes, J-10 have more range and payload than JF-17. But still JF-17 at par with Su-30MKI which have 2 engines(same of J-10), better payload, range and radar than of J-10.

MKI only have Radar advantage over JF17 and it will be nullified by AWACs support.

Point is taken, but in this scenario what will JF-17 will do after seeing MKI? (Could you please aside AWAC from this, I think we talking about plane v/s plane.)

 

[IceCold]

Now thats an stupid answer. At one time members say that JF-17 beat MKI in every field and at the same time you say China dont need it. My dear friend do you really think that if China can make a plane better than MKI, it will not immediately induct them into its forces?? It will give China an upper hand. Why they will go for other planes when they are themselves making good planes.

Indigenous production of JF-17 will definitely cost less to China and if JF-17 is better than they will get a better plane in less price and then why they opted for MKK and that too 100's of them???

I am not saying that JF-17 is a bad plane but dont you think that it raises serious doubt regarding comparing it with su-30. Instead China is developing a better plane to induct which will be definitely better than JF-17.

Thanks......

Seriously at first i thought you were indeed serious in debating over the capabilities of JF-17 vis-via-vis MKI however now there remains no doubt that your purpose here is to troll and flame.
And for the last part it does not matter what you may think about JF-17, as far as we are concerned you may compare it with Mig-21 or maybe even Mig-19 after all its Pakistani how good can it be.

 

[IceCold]

Point is taken, but in this scenario what will JF-17 will do after seeing MKI? (Could you please aside AWAC from this, I think we talking about plane v/s plane.)

Why? Havent we saying this for so long that it would not be a one on one man fight for the world heavy weight championship rather there will be alot of factors involved which will determine the out come of the conflict and which fighter comes on top.
JF-17s primary role is point defence where as the MKI will be used for deep strike missions which means that the MKI will not only have to worry about the incoming PAF interceptors(JF-17) but also against SAM batteries and AAG. Moreover because the JF-17s will be under the umbrella of the AWACS and not using its own radar, it will track MKI with a much bigger RCS first before the MKI tracks the JF-17 with a much smaller RCS. And please now dont start talking about how the MKI can perform as a mini AWAC.

 

[PakShaheen79]

^^ That is a point but thing is tracking something first only work when you have that kind of AA missiles as well. Let's say due to its large RCS Thunder detect MKI at 150 KM but do we have weapons to have a first shot at MKI or does MKI have that kind of missiles right now? I don't think so. AWACS will already tell both pilots about their adversaries on both side much earlier than fighters can themselves can detect each other.

I agree with your point of MKI over in Pakistani skies will face some considerable challenges but what about if Pakistani squadron are planning to take on some SEAD/DEAD mission. Similar threat will be there in Indian skies for Pakistani fighters as well. For this reason PAF itself has accepted MKI as a real threat and all this FC-20 thing is for countering this threat. How well FC-20 will make sure that only time will tell.

Rest there is no comparison between JF-17 with MKI both are of different type and class so it is not sensible to compare them in real terms for the sake of argument even F-6 can take on anything. Hypothesis has no limits.

 

[HAL_FGFA]

And please now dont start talking about how the MKI can perform as a mini AWAC.

I think in a fight Indian AWACS (Falcon) will not be used to give support to MKI

 

[Owais]

False..

please explain!

Yes, J-10 have more range and payload than JF-17. But still JF-17 at par with Su-30MKI which have 2 engines(same of J-10), better payload, range and radar than of J-10.

Read the Name of this Thread CAREFULLY!! having two engines and more payload doesn't mean that a BVRAAM or WVRAAM fired from JF17 cannot hunt an MKI

Point is taken, but in this scenario what will JF-17 will do after seeing MKI? (Could you please aside AWAC from this, I think we talking about plane v/s plane.)

why put AWACs aside?? are we buying AWACs to get weather details?? ok I turn this question on you, what will MKI will do after seeing JF17(outnumbering MKI) having ground support as well as AWAC support?

 

[Arsalan]

I think in a fight Indian AWACS (Falcon) will not be used to give support to MKI

well ok, to finish it off, i agree with you,
infact the MKI are so good they can sneak behind the F22 and shoot them with there guns. and yes ths is true for indian planes. moreover if the pilot is also an indian they may not even require to firs there guns and the Mki can just come close to the F22 and the pilot will shoot the enemy pilot with his lethal state of the art 9 mm pistol!!!

i hope you are happy now,
its party time

regards!
NOTE: sorry for quoting you HAL, my comments are about the general discussion going here. have a look at post 932, 925, 923 and the list goes on..
i hope you will understand the point and wont start addind fuel to the fire!

 

[IceCold]

^^ That is a point but thing is tracking something first only work when you have that kind of AA missiles as well. Let's say due to its large RCS Thunder detect MKI at 150 KM but do we have weapons to have a first shot at MKI or does MKI have that kind of missiles right now? I don't think so. AWACS will already tell both pilots about their adversaries on both side much earlier than fighters can themselves can detect each other.

The way i understand is that an AWAC will detect enemy formations long before they enter into Pakistani territory meaning that the PAF interceptors will be scrambled to intercept the in coming inturders with the target locations without having the need to turn on their own radars and seach for incoming bogies thus eliminating the chance of radar frequency being detected by the MKI because of its superior radar. First detection has its own advantages and lets not forget that it would be minutes before the MKI does come into the firing range of the SD-10 which according to a recent article from the PLA news paper(source wiki) the missile has a range of over 100 kms.( I might have missed something or perhaps over looked, feel free to correct me)

I agree with your point of MKI over in Pakistani skies will face some considerable challenges but what about if Pakistani squadron are planning to take on some SEAD/DEAD mission. Similar threat will be there in Indian skies for Pakistani fighters as well. For this reason PAF itself has accepted MKI as a real threat and all this FC-20 thing is for countering this threat. How well FC-20 will make sure that only time will tell.

True however that is not what we are discussing. The argument revolves typically around JF-17 vs the MKI and Indians believe that every time such event takes place, MKI will come on top. My point is that JF being a point defence fighter will have a home advantage and will thus negate any advantage the MKI has because of its radar.

Rest there is no comparison between JF-17 with MKI both are of different type and class so it is not sensible to compare them in real terms for the sake of argument even F-6 can take on anything. Hypothesis has no limits.

I have been saying this for ages as both jets are meant for different roles w.r.t their respective airforce so a one on one comparision does not make sense. Moreover the out come of conflict will not just depend upon one on one fight but the different factors involved some of which i tried to explain with my limited knowledge in this field.

 

[IceCold]

I think in a fight Indian AWACS (Falcon) will not be used to give support to MKI

We are talking about hostile environment, how far are you willing to take your falcon?

 

[HAL_FGFA]

We are talking about hostile environment, how far are you willing to take your falcon?

Jaha tak ja sake

 

[desiman]

China opted for MKK before J10/JF17 were developed. now they have enough money to buy J10! which have more range and payload. thats why they are not going for JF17.

MKI only have Radar advantage over JF17 and it will be nullified by AWACs support. please debate with facts instead of claiming that super duper MKI is better. I know that MKI is better but I also wana know that How a small, lightweight, highly maneuverable fighter cannot stand against a heavy, Huge MKI when it have AWACs support?? also, I have a point for your MKi's TVC. Do you even know how TVC works? lemme give you and Idea that TVC is not Effective at high speed because it creates so much drag due to inertia and your plane starts loosing altitude. so TVC at slow speed may be effective but can the use of TVC save Mki from a BVR/WVRAAM coming with 20+gs and speed of mach4?

Dont take it personally but the way you talk it seems like you made the JF-17 yourself lol Common people when you guys talk about awacs, i hope you know that India has the Phalcon awacs from isreal. We already have one in serive with 6 on order. The phalcon is way more advanced that the saab 2000 system that pakistan has and that is a fact which you cannot argue against.
Secondly even with awacs support the JF-17 will have to use its own radar to fire the missile which again is not even close to the radar on the MKI. I can give you exact specs on the radars but its no use because i know someone will couter that using some weird argument. People tell me that the JF-17 is light weight, can you please explain how? it does not use any composites and is a full metal frame. it weighs just as much as any other aircraft. Yes thats for sure that the MKI weighs more but it also houses a much more advanced engine and have 2 TVC. Dog fight or BVR fight, JF-17 is not even in the same league as the MKI. The JF-17 is economical jet that can be effective only in numbers against the MKI. One on one fight with the MKI will be very deadly for the JF-17

Guys common please again dont come up with wish list for the JF-17. Even if Pakistan uses Awacs it will not be used with the JF-17 because the PAF will be too busy protecting its F-16 which are superior to the JF-17. Common guys accept the facts and dont come with the wishlist and future predictions. The MKI wins hands down, awacs no awacs. If you think the JF-17 can match up to the MKI just because of pilot skill then you could also compare it to the F-22 LOL im sure some members can even argue that

feel free to disagree again with no personal comments please

 

[ironman]

please explain!

Both aircraft's development process have started in almost same time frame that in early 90's on the other hand the MKK decision took at late 90's.

Read the Name of this Thread CAREFULLY!! having two engines and more payload doesn't mean that a BVRAAM or WVRAAM fired from JF17 cannot hunt an MKI

I believe the thread name should be like "Counter Su-30MKI with JF-17". MKI is not an alien aircraft to invisible against those missiles, the point is, to fire those missiles JF-17 has to reach its maximum BVRAAM range some what like <100 km that is really a dead game against MKI.

why put AWACs aside?? are we buying AWACs to get weather details?? ok I turn this question on you, what will MKI will do after seeing JF17(outnumbering MKI) having ground support as well as AWAC support?

Theoretically there is not a fight possible under with AWAC support between those aircrafts. The on board electronic supportive measure suite of AWAC can detect the missile at the moment of launch and it leads to jam the missile with enough time. What missing here is the fight between JF-17 and MKI. That's why I prefer to stick with topic.

 

[bilal1219]

Guyz,

I was browsing through the youtube and i found something interesting. Please have a look

Regards,
Bilal

 

[kursed]

If Sukhois were in fact the 'best' in its present form, Russian won't be working on PAK-FA. It's a propaganda video, take it as such.