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Stop maligning the military


the Nawaz league , PPP and the liberals will cry murder and blame the army for toppling their "£deomcratically elected government" and stopping them from "serving the nation"

so NO.... no can do.. this time people of Pakistan are not going to get the help of GHQ to topple the government. you guys managed to reinstall the chief Justice .. try again


re Kashmir both the tribes and Pak Army sacrificed their lives and won the freedom for the people of Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas
they fought against a numerically superior enemy armed with air force and armour. only 2 armoured cars would have liberated Sirinager but what happened is history. point is, people shouldnt completely dismiss the achievements on the battle fields.
 
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Coming back to Drone attacks! I my opinion no nation will like to indulge in a fullfledge war against even a weakest country, It cost alot. But we are in middle of unanounce war. we can neither escape it any more nor we can end it alone. It leaves us with little options, one of those option is to carry put complete operation to wipe out Talibans and their task masters from the soil of Pakistan. That will eliminate the Reasan d'etre the Drone strike.
REgarding Afghanistan, we can exercise other option to influence the Power play in Kabul.
after all using Taliban like tactics is out of Fashion for the NOW! we should be more innovative in dealing with neighbours as they have BIG New Friends.
 
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Coming back to Drone attacks! I my opinion no nation will like to indulge in a fullfledge war against even a weakest country, It cost alot. But we are in middle of unanounce war. we can neither escape it any more nor we can end it alone. It leaves us with little options, one of those option is to carry put complete operation to wipe out Talibans and their task masters from the soil of Pakistan. That will eliminate the Reasan d'etre the Drone strike.
REgarding Afghanistan, we can exercise other option to influence the Power play in Kabul.
after all using Taliban like tactics is out of Fashion for the NOW! we should be more innovative in dealing with neighbours as they have BIG New Friends.


easier said than done... American politicians are demanding expanding the operations in the rest of the Waziristan but their generals acknowledge that the Army is already stretched thin and consolidating its positions. but rest assured it will happen and has to happen this time this cant be left unfinished.
 
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easier said than done... American politicians are demanding expanding the operations in the rest of the Waziristan but their generals acknowledge that the Army is already stretched thin and consolidating its positions. but rest assured it will happen and has to happen this time this cant be left unfinished.

So the poor people of Pakistan should get ready for another wave of blood bath because Pakistan Army is going to do America's bidding?
 
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Perhaps people who speak in defence of Fauj need to answer one small question...

It has been 60 years that Fauj has not won against India over the issue of Kashmir... why?

How much longer do you need for that... If you had let the Tribals do it, they would ve done that by now... by themselves...
Ok.

i have ordered the ASFC to start fueling the missiles, we will taking over Kashmir by last light D-Day. Hope to clear up the area from enemy by first light D+4.

BTW, the civilians have ruled the country for almost half the time, what gains did you people achieved to liberate Kashmir or bring the issue to international limelight? 60 years have already passed, buddy. 'How much longer do you need for that?' You have been face-palmed almost on every instance as regards to Kashmir. Pani tu pora karwa nahi sakay janab aap log..

Ok, a more pertinent question. What exact laurels have you presented the country with (except a few that can be counted on finger tips, or except those who were either born ex-pats or have excelled because there were abroad)? How many masters do we yield each year in 1st div? What's the pass % of HSSC exams in this country? How many of us have reading habits in this country? Except those ponders how many of us go to gyms with a aim that it's necessary for a healthy life? You know what, i hear moans, complains and b!tching from graduates that there's a shortage of jobs in this country, and i reply them, having 3 masters degrees in 'C' grade or completing engineering in the bottom last would not get you anywhere. All we want is to 'complete our studies' so that we can somehow start earning a 5 figure salary. Should i tell you about M.A English sindhis from interior Sindh who cant draft a leave application? Or should i tell you of those who are (ever) ready to pay 500 ka note to that bugger from NADRA so that their date of birth can be corrected, though the fault lied at NADRA's end? Or may be i should tell of those parents who are ready to pay anything so that their children can cheat during boards exams without understanding that the idiot civil engineer who constructed their house that had seepage and whose walls have already cracked had also entered an engineering college as his parents paid just anything so that he can cheat. i mean, i have seen people abusing road department for poor construction of roads, but at the same time they themselves would not mind mixing more bajri while constructing bridges.

Just tell me what have you given to this country?

May be you would also blame this on the Army, or may be you would quote me some glaring stars this country has produced, but you know what, it doesnt only takes an Aitchisonian to be successful in life. Those who had the will, had also succeeded by matriculating from 'taat convent' schools.

i had this officer who would always say, it's not an achievement if you are able to get a job done while you had everything that you required to complete that particular task, but the essence is in completing the same task when you dont have all the luxuries at your disposal. i mean anyone can be a gambler if he was born in Vegas, no?
 
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No one is asking to confront a superpower... there are nations weaker than us militarily that have a dignified stance when it comes to dealing with America...

Guud. Quote me some.

Oh Iran, i didnt know we had fully explored and functional oil wells in Pakistan. BTW, their leader sits on a mat when he addresses his cabinet.
 
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Guud. Quote me some.

Oh Iran, i didnt know we had fully explored and functional oil wells in Pakistan. BTW, their leader sits on a mat when he addresses his cabinet.

Right... lets stay as slaves of America... at least the home negro gets to sleep in the house!!!
 
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Ok.

i have ordered the ASFC to start fueling the missiles, we will taking over Kashmir by last light D-Day. Hope to clear up the area from enemy by last light D+4.

BTW, the civilians have ruled the country for almost half the time, what gains did you people achieved to liberate Kashmir or bring the issue to international limelight? 60 years have already passed, buddy. 'How much longer do you need for that?' You have been face-palmed almost on every instance as regards to Kashmir. Pani tu pora karwa nahi sakay janab aap log..

Ok, a more pertinent question. What exact laurels have you presented the country with (except a few that can be counted on finger tips, or except those who were either born ex-pats or have excelled because there were abroad)? How many masters do we yield each year in 1st div? What's the pass % of HSSC exams in this country? How many of us have reading habits in this country? Except those ponders how many of us go to gyms with a aim that it's necessary for a healthy life? You know what, i hear moans, complains and b!tching from graduates that there's shortage of jobs in this country, and i reply them, having 3 masters degrees in 'C' grade or completing engineering in the bottom last would not get you anywhere. All we want is to 'complete our studies' so that we can somehow start earning a 5 figure salary. Should i tell you about M.A English sindhis from interior Sindh who cant draft a leave application? Or should i tell you of those who are (ever) ready to pay 500 ka note to that bugger from NADRA so that their date of birth can be corrected, though the fault lied at NADRA's end? Or may be i should tell of those parents who are ready to pay anything so that their children cheat during boards exams without understanding that the idiot civil engineer who constructed their house that had seepage and whose walls have already cracked had also entered an engineering college as his parents paid just anything so that he can cheat. i mean, i have seen people abusing road department for poor construction of roads, but at the same time they themselves would not mind mixing more bajri while constructing bridges.

Just tell me what have you given to this country?

May be you would also blame this on the Army, or may be you would quote me some glaring stars this country has produced, but you know what, it doesnt only takes an Aitchisonian to be successful in life. Those who had the will, had also succeeded by matriculating from 'taat convent' schools.

i had this officer who would always say, it's not an achievement if you are able to get a job done while you had everything that you required to complete that particular task, but the essence is in completing the same task when you dont have all the luxuries at your disposal. i mean anyone can be a gambler if he was born in Vegas, no?

Would have made sense if I supported the civilian rulers of Pakistan...
 
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the Nawaz league , PPP and the liberals will cry murder and blame the army for toppling their "£deomcratically elected government" and stopping them from "serving the nation"

so NO.... no can do.. this time people of Pakistan are not going to get the help of GHQ to topple the government. you guys managed to reinstall the chief Justice .. try again


re Kashmir both the tribes and Pak Army sacrificed their lives and won the freedom for the people of Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas
they fought against a numerically superior enemy armed with air force and armour. only 2 armoured cars would have liberated Sirinager but what happened is history. point is, people shouldnt completely dismiss the achievements on the battle fields.

You are talking about the Lawyers backed by Britain in that Chief Justice issue... cmon Irfan Bhai... this is not a call for the Army to take over again... I think a lot of people dont read all of my posts on this forum... :)

I agree... we did have achievements despite a total lack of political will and total "humble dog of the western master" attitude in the corridors of power in our country...
 
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Bro Muse... your frustration/anger/disgust is totally justified... Problem is that the common man is shedding tears of agony in Pakistan... these elites in the military are taking the whole country for a ride and taking them for granted... soon inshaAllah a time will come when people would say enough is enough... it happened in countries like Egypt/Libya... they would be fools to think its not going to happen in Pakistan...

I said this before and some members disagreed with me... but the only enemy of Pakistan Army is India and with India also they have a status quo attitude... Stay back... we ll nuke you etc... meanwhile they are literally nuking their own country for their own sake... You look at the kind of facilities and benefits the military people enjoy in our country and you get hit instantly by the brutal contrast of Fauj and Awam living standards... and in all this our Army has never achieved a victory against India the one country it supposedly considers the enemy... They are good at slapping the nation, serving under criminals such as Zardari, licking the boots of America, accepting soy beans instead of F16s, forgiving millions in loans given to fellow Generals (thanks Musharaf), setting up groups like MQM and instilling sectarianism (thanks Zia), lose wars at the negotiation table (thanks Ayub), get drunk till they piss in the pants in public (you know who)... but nothing else... and you know what... most people reading this forum know all this is true... my only question is to the people who sincerely love Pakistan (not just hollow claims) as to when will all this end? Does this Fauj now want the educated middle class respectable member of society to start thinking that perhaps Taliban have a point... and that he should be saying Takbir Allah Akbar the next time someone kills poor Army jawan in a terrorist attack... Bro Agnos here is talking about constitution... the hell... do you really think the common man thinks about these things in this manner... what constitution are we abiding by?? Two innocent boys get beaten and lynched to death in broad day light in our country and no one knows the people involved in such brutal killings including the police standing as spectators will ever be punished and when... Our country has become a jungle... no one listens to the cries of the poor... during the floods last year I got involved in some relief work and the things that people were telling me, I felt going mad with grief and anger... I keep asking everyone... when will all this end?? You say one thing about bringing back some dignity to the country and its people and some people jump on you calling you unrealistic and someone who wants war with the West... If God forgives me for anything good in my life then it sure would be the Sabr I m showing in this time... this goes for the rest of the noble and decent people in Pakistan today...
Though your post doesnt merit a reply as this kinda arguments have been posted and countered a 100 times on this forum, still as i have already posted something related, so here goes....
The most painful questions i have to face when i travel back home especially to my village are the following;

1. Yaar fauji, apnay pind which chori bari wadh gayee hai, aye fauj kyn nai kujh kardi..??!!!

2. Yaar inna nay patrol fir wadha chadya aye..fauj kyn nai inna nu rokdi..??!!
etc
etc

Initially i would just avoid the questions, then i used to tell them that Fauj jai Pulce nahi jo choron nu pharna shoro karday, but now i just see at their faces and smile coz i know that the poor ignorant lot is asking the question is also quite innocent. May be we need to give these people a crash course regarding the Charter of Duties of our institutions, right? But after going through the posts here i guess some other Pakistanis also need to undergo the same short cadre.

May be if MQM thugs are collecting bhatta the 5 Corp Commander should stop manning the eastern border and place a fauji in every chowk around N. Nazimabad and Lalu Khait.

People here now would say that again it is the Army because of which other LEAs dont get their due share and in turn they land up loosing credibility. May be these people should spend some time with a RPO/DPO or for that matter a DCO, only then they would come to know about the amount of funds these people 'waste' on stupid and petty issues and their luxuries. Those who show concerns over Army's business venture need to visit Okara and may be then they could see the Petrol Pump being run the police, or may be they should visit DPO Multan so that he can tell them how many nurseries he is running there, or may be they can go talk to DPO Gujrat and ask him the shops he has given rented out there. There is NOT a single DPO in this country who doesnt run a business in one shape or other! and i am not talking about his personal ventures but those which he manages through is designation officially. The RPO is the guy to whom they are answerable in terms of the income.

Did you people know a DCO is the King of the budget that he receives for his district and except for the developmental funds he is answerable for nothing? He and the District Officers working under him has a fixed fuel budget which normally total up to just little lower than a million rupees per month and if it is not consumed in that particular month the surplus amount is to given back. But then who likes to give something back to the govt? Should i tell you people the name of that DO (Revenue) who travels to his home 95 kms away from his duty district on every alternative day on sarkari gari? Or may be i should give you the name of that DO (Planning) whose family would visit him thrice a week on sarkari potohar jeep from a place that was 140 km away from his duty station. i know Officers from DMG group who belonged Multan was only posted in Jhania, Khanewal, Ahmedpur Sial, Duniapur and Mian Channun in his 10 year of service? And then he would proudly boast that, Sir ji..ghar say bahir tu rahay hain (as if staying 50-80km away from ones home is staying away) magar kabhi mehsoos nahi howa.

Mehsoos khutta hona hai when he would visit his family almost every day on sarkari kharcha?!!!

Believe me, i have spent time with these guys (during IS duties, especially in Moharrams). Once i and another Officer had some sarkari business somehwere in Punjab. One of the District Officer there had been very nice to me. i decided to call him for dinner in my tent. i told my cook to prepare guud food. We had an appetizer, 2-3 dishes, sweat, green tea etc. Ofcourse the entire expenditure on the food was to be paid/shared by myself and that other officer so we made sure that the dinner was a guud one. During the dinner the DO started talking about dinners in general. We had invited him alone but he brought with him another DO but then thankfully the food was enough to accommodate 4 men. While we were talking the other dude says; Sir, lagta hai Army walay bhi khola kharch kartay hain khanay shannay per, bara acha khana banaya howa hai!! And for a moment i was stunned!! Man, i am spending all this from my own pocket and he tells me that i am feeding him from sarkari paisa?!! Though it was against the etiquettes but i still properly informed him that everything his highness was eating would be shared by myself and this other officer, we in the Army dont have a culture of mufta khana. It's only limited to the troops langer. And the surprised guy tells me; Sir hamary han tu aisa nahi hai, once i was posted in Faisalabad and the DCO there had this very GUUD practice that every week he would instruct one of the DOs to arrange a dinner and then we all (the Distrcit Management) would go there and enjoy the food. Ab zahir see baat hai wo DO apni jaib say tu 10 admion ka khana nahi kar sakta na. i actually had to reconfirm it from him regarding the 'every week' part and to my surprise the answer was a big yes. To my further amazement the guy was feeling proud telling me all this.

Atleast in the Army we utilize our own manpower if it comes to small scale business, like a unit vegetable shop. But these guys would let their manpower (the huge manpower that includes the chowkidar, mali, cook, waiter of an empty Dak Bangla, Irrigation Dept's Rest House which is occupied once in 2 years that too for 2 days etc). i know the chowkidar of one of the Rest House of Irrigation dept keeping his cows there. He was the most happy man on the face of this world as he tells me; Sir jee bari zabardat nukari hai..2 farlaang pe ghar hai mera, tankhowa pehli ko mil jati hai, Rest House mai maal dangar rakha howa hai, 6 mahinay bad pind k choudary k mehmaan ajain tu 15-20 din k liye rest house unko karaye pe day dyty hain, jo paisy atay hain wo mai or XEN saab adhay adhay kar laity hain.

Loshay hain bhai!

But the most unfortunate thing is that the rest house keeps receiving thousands of rupees on quarterly basis under the maintenance head which the XEN 'religiously' expends over the rest house i.e. fake bills are prepared. This situation has two other variations; One, the DCO/XEN/SE etc would keep his gaon ka banda has chowkidar under an arrangement where the guy would pay some amount of his pay in Janab's khidmat, or the chowkidar is spared the pay share provided he agrees to maintain Janab's cow/goats without additional expenditure. Sarkari khara kis ko acha nahi lagta bhai??!!

Moreover, some share out of the income received through petrol pumps, nurseries and shops by the Police is expended in welfare of Shaheeds of Police but most of it is utilized for luxuries. i have this classfellow of mine who is a PA of one of the DPO. Once i visited him and he took me to a restaurant. After we started eating a guy came to us and asked us politely if we needed something else, he was not exactly asking us but giving us much protocol. i was busy eating and thought that i would tip him at the end (as a rule i tip always). After he left that classfellow asks me, han bhai ab khush hai? And i ask him, kyn bhai? O yaar restaurant ka malik thujay pochnay aya hai or tu daikh he nahi raha?!! Being in the Army i am not used to such 'protocol' and i ask him why would the owner himself come and treat us? Lah... main teray sath baitha hon or tu kehta hai k pochnay kyn aya hai. And it was then i got the joke. i then tell him yaar tum pulce walay yaki say baz na ana. Then he tells me, nahi yaar ye baat nahi hai, wo Wednesday walay din lunch to ha DPO saab ka is restaurant say jata hai na, to malik say kafi salam dua hai. And i am like, what? Kyn yahan say kyn jata hai? o yaar tujhy nahi pata, daily ka khana jata hai different restaurants/hotels say. And i tell him, ye kaya bakwas hai, chalo i am sure wo khata tu nahi hoga usay. Khata hai yaar, aksar kehta hai retiring room mai ja k khana lagao. i again tell him, yaar usay pata nahi hoga k ye kaha say ata hai, ye kam nichay wala tabka ziada karta hai. Then he again surprises me, pata hai pata kyn nahi hai, daily ka khana office mai khatay hain saab or bill zero, tu tera khyal hai usy pata nahi hai k khana kaha say ata hai?!

i remember once i was coming back from flood duties and we have been working in consultation with district administration. During packing i saw my clerk packing a large number of paper rims and numerous printer cartridges. i ask him that i havent sanctioned any money so from where did you buy all this stationary? And he tells me that DCO saab k clerk say li hain. Sir un kay pas lakhaon ki pari hai, baich daytay hain ye log jo bach jati hai tu us sy lay aya main!! i was not listening to him anymore as i was thinking that when i was Adjutant in my unit my clerks from A Branch would fcuk that hp deskjet's disposal cartridge with refiller injection for so many time that even its sponge would die and tore up, because the stationary grant that my unit received on yearly basis was hardly enough to purchase a few rice paper rims and most of the DO sheets would be purchase by my unit from the cutting/share the Officers and Men would deposit every month out of their pay!!

You know what, the budget can kiss my arse anytime!

Still i would love to see you quote the 'luxuries' a fauji enjoys so much.
Waiting..
 
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Xeric... you are talking about corruption of civilian admin in our country... I never said that the civilian admin is angels and the Army is the only cause of our problem... The Army has its issues... It has produced people like Musharaf... there is something wrong with that picture sir...

I wont go into this on such a deep level... You have quoted your own experiences as an officer here... I just have this to say to you...

When you become a General inshaAllah... Dont spend all your money on huge houses and cars only... remember the poor people also... and dont invite some corrupt official to dinner again... If you invite me I ll be much better company... and we can sit on mats on the floor to eat...
 
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Would have made sense if I supported the civilian rulers of Pakistan...

Thankyou, i only wanted to hear the same.

So tell me, who are those guys you are happy with in this world? Ishaba Ikram (Razi Allah Anha)? i mean they were the only beings (and the era around Prophet (PBUH)) that we can term perfect.

You know what, i have this classfellow and a very guud friend of mine. We matriculated from the same school and then completed our FSc from the same college. He was a bright student. We appeared for the PPT (for CA) and he failed it and i cleared it. We applied for almost every professional college in Pakistan and cleared the entry tests (not every college took entry tests back then)/made upto the merit due to our marks in FSc, still my score of better than him when it came to selection in professional colleges, then we both applied for the military, i cleared the ISSB, he didnt. Time passed, i joined the military and he went to the US, say thanks to his uncle who was (well) settled there, he married his daughter and became a ghar jamai, his susar jee bore the expenditures of his study abroad as he had married even before he had a job there, then as planned the dude took over his uncle's business and now is a 'successful' businessman in the US.

Once i had this chat with him over MSN, he too, as most here cribbed against the military and almost every damn entity/institution/leader this country has. After a very very long discussion i asked him the same question i had asked you; 'what is that thing/who is that person with whom he is happy with in this country and that what does he suggests so that we can get the Army to behave and bring this country back on track? And his answer was, well, i am a critic, my job is to ask questions only.. :)

i dont know why i am reminded of him every time i reply to posts on this thread?! :whistle:
 
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When you become a General inshaAllah... Dont spend all your money on huge houses and cars only... remember the poor people also... and dont invite some corrupt official to dinner again... If you invite me I ll be much better company... and we can sit on mats on the floor to eat...

Xeric

please invite me too

Once i had this chat with him over MSN, he too, as most here cribbed against the military and almost every damn entity/institution/leader this country has. After a very very long discussion i asked him the same question i had asked you; 'what is that thing/who is that person with whom he is happy with in this country and that what does he suggests so that we can get the Army to behave and bring this country back on track? And his answer was, well, i am a critic, my job is to ask questions only.. :)

i dont know why i am reminded of him every time i reply to posts on this thread?! :whistle:

yea its world easiest job. moan moan moan, criticise and then present no solution and reject all posibilities and then return back to moan moan moan
 
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LOL @ People talking about joining Army for future.I almost laughed when i saw the pay scale of Army.The Pay of Captain is a joke compared to pay-scale a person can get in civilian life.My late grandfather (god bless his soul ) a colonel worked in civilian sector for more then 15 years after his retirement (Hard work jobs) because the only savings he had after retiring from the army was used for buying a small 10 marla house.He had to feed his children so worked for years and only reason he stopped working because his eyesight was too weak and could not go to office anymore.By the time he retired from civilian life his net worth was less then 24-30 lac.So not everyone from the military is a a rich and he worked very hard Army.Never posted to civilian duties.
 
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One thing that unites liberal hippy's and extreme takfiri hizbur tahrir types is the criticizem of the Armed Forces, it means that the Army is doing something right according to these demographics. Also in all recent internationally recognized polls, the Pak Army's approval ratings are in the high 80's %

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