Stop maligning the military

[kursed]

If you want representative government, then please tell me whether the PPP led government has asked the Army or PAF to take any action against the US drones? Please tell me if the PPP and PML-N told the Army to kill Davis or find some way to keep him in jail?

Excellent points, the politicians are as much to be blamed for the current crisis of political will in the country as the military.

But pray explain the chain of events preceding the 2008 elections? Pakistan has been targeted via drones since 2004 and not 2008. Why wasn't PAF shooting them down then, instead of sharing AFBs with them? As of now, Pakistan Army has been given access to live video feeds from drones on strike missions, it's our sleuths on the ground in most instances which provide target information for the drones.

And in case you remember it well, the very first drone strike that resulted in a huge (80+) causality count in Bajaur area was actually owned by Pakistan Army (suggesting that it were their gunship helicopters which took out that particular madrassah). Only to be proven false later.

A reporter who had earlier pictured bits and pieces of a hellfire missile and sent it to the international media, after Pakistanis owned a drone strike, calling it their gun-ship attack on an Al-Qaeda member - was later picked up and killed.

Were it the politicians who asked the Pakistan Army to own drone strikes on behalf of the CIA?

Are you in any way suggesting that Pakistan Army has had absolutely no say in how Pakistan's role in war on terror is shaping up? Is it all because of the politicians?

When Asif Ali Zardari or Nawaz Sharif or any other politician for that matter met US authorities, under prevailing circumstances around R. Davis's arrest - the first news in Pakistan and/or on most defense related boards was that they have sold out Pakistan. So why cry foul when army is judged similarly? Isn't that what you ask people to do? Not judge them alone but along with rest of the culprits?


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As for the R. Davis issue, mind sharing how were the two other men, responsible for a hit and run, while trying to reach Davis able to escape Pakistan? I know it as well as any serious reader in here, that when it comes to intel ops, ECL is not the only list that can stop people from traveling out of Pakistan.

Or

How Fazal-e-Hayat (Fazlullah) escaped to Kunnar, Afghanistan - which shares no physical border with the valley of Swat, after being reported by ISPR to have been injured and surrounded for about 3/4 weeks?

Or

Why is it that the Army suddenly loses its voice (per certain opinion makers here) when it comes to issues such as WOT and Pakistan's role in it (giving an impression that it's entirely the politicians who run the show) but suddenly finds it again when Kerry Lugur aid bill suggests that flow of money will be controlled by civilians and that Army will give an undertaking to not to subvert the civilian government? Remember the ruckus around that?

Or

Would you like to revisit the arrest of Mullah Bradar in Karachi, and tell if the JSOC SpecOp team that pinpointed his exact location to ISI, was not the exact type of team operating out of Lahore, of which R. Davis was a part? Smoke and mirrors!



----------

People of Pakistan do not question Pakistan Army because it is an instrument of policy, but because it is - whether anyone likes it or not - very much the maker of that policy (and that process didn't begin yesterday but has been going on since 1958 'SEATO/CENTO', U2 flights out of Peshawar et al). You can choose not to see it, but that's entirely your prerogative.

And as for sharing the blame of burden, I quite agree. Mentioned the same in my post here.

Criticizing security policies of a certain institution is not automatically akin to withdrawing support from your troops, that's the argument which Republicans waged against the Democrats, before the last Presidential election. And it was as hollow in their case as it is here.

That said, both civilians and the armed forces personnel need to realize the fact that they belong to the same country. And not one party, neither the civvies nor the military folks are to 'question' each others patriotism, should differences exist b/w their points of view. Just because a person chooses to question or even criticize certain policies followed by the armed forces, it doesn't make him any less patriotic than any other Pakistani. The same argument goes for the civilians as well, which have more recently resorted to blaming the army for every evil that Pakistan confronts today.

Yes, politicians do actually invite the military to take part in politics, but this should also not be forgotten that the very people responsible for the making of the state of Pakistan were sidelined by the military back in 1958. The present lot of politicians (or the lack thereof) didn't come out of a vacuum. This phenomenon has very specific and certain reasons, which explain why we have such an incompetent lot of politicians ruling us today.

And in the same vein, no one - not even the army (except for the time of Gen. Zia) has ever stopped the civilians from paying attention to the well being of civil institutions, be it public services or simply good governance or even law and order. In that case, civilians are very much responsible for losing sight of what was supposed to be their ultimate duty towards the state of Pakistan.

But yes, as of today, the need is essential to stop considering security and foreign policies as means of enhancing clout of one single institution only. The armed forces of Pakistan need to increase civilian input when devising their policies (and not just intimidate them of their decisions). The legitimacy that they crave, can only be obtained via this way. The time to twist arms and doing what they thought was best, is fast running out.

P.S.
The idea that a soldier wages war at the borders while the rest of Pakistanis sit home and enjoy themselves is fallacious because the same soldier is paid for by the taxes of millions of Pakistanis in the country. The army does not generate funds on its own, it's run by the money of people of Pakistan. The points here is not to undermine the army, but to make clear that no Pakistani can gloat about his moral superiority over the other based on their nature of work.

That's the precise thought process, which leads to further divisions between the military and civil mindset - eventually leading to both sides opting to pick each other apart over every tiny issue.

 

[muse]

People of Pakistan do not question Pakistan Army because it is an instrument of policy, but because it is - whether anyone likes it or not - very much the maker of that policy (and that process didn't begin yesterday but has been going on since 1958 'SEATO/CENTO', U2 flights out of Peshawar et al). You can choose not to see it, but that's entirely your prerogative.

This is reality, this has been reality, but some people argue that it is not the case the Pakistan army is making policy ---- Listen, this would not even come up, if only Pakistan Army were doing a good (read smart) job at formulating and executing that policy --- What the heck kind of policy is to to negotiate Pakistan's security? What kind of policy is to tell the nation that a murderer has been held, only to release the murderer in a cynical technicality, after doing a deal??? Is this the nation of nation and state we are ?? The response for those in any kind of Pakistan uniform is, NO, that is not who we are and we expect better from you and if you like the uniformed life, you had better learn to deliver or else...

 

[Xeric]

Pakistan Army was not operating under any strategy or setup. Didn't they entirely ignore the thousands that died previous the negotiation? You pointed it out yourself, beheadings arranged all throughout Swat. FC troops, Police hung upside down, tied from legs on poles with messages stapled to there decapitated heads alleging to other people that they will earn the same fate. These sorts of executions were carried out for more than a year way before Pakistan Army even imagined a negotiation. Was this not enough brutality to start an Operation? What the hells the need for Negotiations and support when ordinary Pakistani citizens along with government officials including ANP members and FC/Police were being slaughtered everywhere?

Out of context. Still AM has answered you quite well.

By the way, let me share my own experience with you. My uncle and 2 cousins (RIP) were also blind Patriotic Pakistanis like I was. At the start of the Operation one of my cousin had reported to an Army personal that a few Talibs were living nearby. And guess what happened that same night? Over 200 fully armed Taliban had come right at my cousins door at night/early in the morning dark, he along with his brother and father were dragged outside half asleep and were yelling. They were bullet riddled right at that spot. An Army checkpost was stationed a few meters away and was loaded with soldiers. Not even after gun shots did they take a chance to come against the Taliban. (Read the full story here, these are my own 2 cousins and uncle, In The Memory of Abbas Khan) This is what we went through because of the Army. Now can you tell me, was this also a part of the negotiation?

i feel sorry for you loss. And i also know that my words would not bring any joy to you, but still we need to understand this one thing; What did it take for us to realize that a military operation was indeed required to eliminate this insurgency for once and all? Was it that the day first act of terrorism was executed against Pakistanis in mainland Pakistan or the locals, everyone in Pakistan to include the Nation, the politicians and the military just agreed upon a military operation as if 'yuk zuban ho kar they all said labaik' to the call of an operation? The answer is a big NO!

You for one should know above all what all did it take us to finally agree both at the civilian and the military end to operate against these bastards. Do you remember what was the success rate of the (initial) operations that were conducted against these terrorists under Musharraf? May be not, because if you had remembered you never would have cribbed against the Army. i remember the situation then, it was something like; we are cordoning some area infested with terrorists, the area is infact a heavily inhabited village with a large population, some bugger fires a bullet from a window of some house and it kills a soldier beside me, another comrade of his cocks his G-3 gets emotional and says 'i will just @#$! these bastards' and before he pulls that trigger, i hold the muzzle of his barrel and orders him not to fire!! Why? Because we went into the operation half heartily, because we didnt have any support from you guys - the Nation, because the bastard media was portraying the Army as occupiers and aggressors, because the champions of Islam were supporting the thugs etc etc. Just imagine what a 'wonderful' blow i just had given to the morale of that soldier by stopping him from firing that bullet. i mean WTF, the same window of that house belonged to a local of that area who was not infact a terrorist but at that time was also not against that terrorist and was ready to support and assist them in whatever way deemed necessary. Lending him his window to fire a shot was one of them.

So, we were there to fight, but then we were not exactly fighting!

In your cousins' case, well i think the military did a favor by letting you people know about the dangers that lied ahead. What i could see is that your family was well known/respected and opposed the terrorists as a principled stance, so obviously the tugs went against you, and as the Army was not involved in 'active' operations (say thanks to the Pakistani Nation, the politicians and the media, who took another year and numerous casualties to finally realize that these bastards are to be taken with an iron fist or else they will eat us up) therefore no active measures were taken to prevent the sad incident to take place. BTW, the primary responsibility from preventing this to happened lied on the Police of that time.

 

[Xeric]

No. I'm not questioning you as to why Pakistan Army did not take action, but Why did they have strong links with Taliban? Did you not get my point? The day my cousin told an Army personell that Taliban were at this location, that same night an Army of Taliban came and killed the whole family.

That's a serious allegation. Prove it or retract it!!

Just because your cousin was killed on the same day he told the military of some presence of terrorists doesn't necessarily means that it was the Army that leaked out the info to the terrorists. i bet it was one of your neighbors or friends who did the dirty work. Do i need to remind you of the intensity of support and sympathy your local populace shared with these thugs before you people realized their true intentions when they finally took over Swat and flogged that girl?!

Yes, I can share a million stories similar to mines, when Pak Army backfired its own innocent people.

Please do.

i am sure it would be an interesting read.

 

[Xeric]

Excellent points, the politicians are as much to be blamed for the current crisis of political will in the country as the military.

But pray explain the chain of events preceding the 2008 elections? Pakistan has been targeted via drones since 2004 and not 2008. Why wasn't PAF shooting them down then, instead of sharing AFBs with them? As of now, Pakistan Army has been given access to live video feeds from drones on strike missions, it's our sleuths on the ground in most instances which provide target information for the drones.

And in case you remember it well, the very first drone strike that resulted in a huge (80+) causality count in Bajaur area was actually owned by Pakistan Army (suggesting that it were their gunship helicopters which took out that particular madrassah). Only to be proven false later.

A reporter who had earlier pictured bits and pieces of a hellfire missile and sent it to the international media, after Pakistanis owned a drone strike, calling it their gun-ship attack on an Al-Qaeda member - was later picked up and killed.

Were it the politicians who asked the Pakistan Army to own drone strikes on behalf of the CIA?

Are you in any way suggesting that Pakistan Army has had absolutely no say in how Pakistan's role in war on terror is shaping up? Is it all because of the politicians?

When Asif Ali Zardari or Nawaz Sharif or any other politician for that matter met US authorities, under prevailing circumstances around R. Davis's arrest - the first news in Pakistan and/or on most defense related boards was that they have sold out Pakistan. So why cry foul when army is judged similarly? Isn't that what you ask people to do? Not judge them alone but along with rest of the culprits?


--------


As for the R. Davis issue, mind sharing how were the two other men, responsible for a hit and run, while trying to reach Davis able to escape Pakistan? I know it as well as any serious reader in here, that when it comes to intel ops, ECL is not the only list that can stop people from traveling out of Pakistan.

Or

How Fazal-e-Hayat (Fazlullah) escaped to Kunnar, Afghanistan - which shares no physical border with the valley of Swat, after being reported by ISPR to have been injured and surrounded for about 3/4 weeks?

Or

Why is it that the Army suddenly loses its voice (per certain opinion makers here) when it comes to issues such as WOT and Pakistan's role in it (giving an impression that it's entirely the politicians who run the show) but suddenly finds it again when Kerry Lugur aid bill suggests that flow of money will be controlled by civilians and that Army will give an undertaking to not to subvert the civilian government? Remember the ruckus around that?

Or

Would you like to revisit the arrest of Mullah Bradar in Karachi, and tell if the JSOC SpecOp team that pinpointed his exact location to ISI, was not the exact type of team operating out of Lahore, of which R. Davis was a part? Smoke and mirrors!



----------

People of Pakistan do not question Pakistan Army because it is an instrument of policy, but because it is - whether anyone likes it or not - very much the maker of that policy (and that process didn't begin yesterday but has been going on since 1958 'SEATO/CENTO', U2 flights out of Peshawar et al). You can choose not to see it, but that's entirely your prerogative.

And as for sharing the blame of burden, I quite agree. Mentioned the same in my post here.

^^^ Thankyou for the quickie in history, but what exactly what was your point?

Quoting incidents pre-talibnization of Pakistan and those that has no direct link with the recent drone attack or the R.Davis case would only reaffirm our stance whereby we reiterate that Pakistan Army is just doing its job under the umbrella of the democratically elected govt of Pakistan.

The Army owned that drone attack that killed 80 people, yes it did, it was later proven wrong and the Army faced the music for it.

The guy who snapped the pics of hellfire was killed, god knows by whom, but then what exactly is that you want to tell us by narrating the same old tales?

Yes the Army plays a vital role when it comes to dealing with the West as regards to WoT, but that doesnt mean that one should only blame the Army for certain decisions. One more thing, Army will only take responsibility of its actions that had fallen in its specific domain, R Davis case was the baby of this civilian govt, the ISI didnt give him the visa, nor the customs at the airports fall under Army, neither Army is responsible for what happens between R.Malik, Sir Haqqani and the Federal Govt - damn there's a functional govt you people have so longed for, now, take it up with them. Blame us when the GoP asks the PAF to take down the drones and the army to stop ground forces to enter Pakistan, and they refuse to obey it.

 

[Xeric]

This is reality, this has been reality, but some people argue that it is not the case the Pakistan army is making policy ---- Listen, this would not even come up, if only Pakistan Army were doing a good (read smart) job at formulating and executing that policy --- What the heck kind of policy is to to negotiate Pakistan's security? What kind of policy is to tell the nation that a murderer has been held, only to release the murderer in a cynical technicality, after doing a deal??? Is this the nation of nation and state we are ?? The response for those in any kind of Pakistan uniform is, NO, that is not who we are and we expect better from you and if you like the uniformed life, you had better learn to deliver or else...

Musey please suggest us an (workable) alternative. May be confronting a superpower would do, right?

If not, then dont complain, please.

 

[Rain]

this got to be the most retarded excuse I have seen so far. my apologies for being blunt but it’s the people who continue to be played and divided on the bases of ethnicities, sects and families. Now the Urban population makes up a sizable portion of the total electorate that can bring a change. But is it willing to get off its arse and challenge the status quo?

How naïve of you to blame the army when it was the lawyers who sent Musharaf packing. The suppression by the feudal lords and tribal chieftains is a fact but they were also overtaken by the Taliban who systemically eliminated the Maliks and influential families in Swat and tribal areas.
The Pakistani public knows a lot about complaining but suffers from memory loss and elects the same political elite after 2nd elections that it was cursing few governments back. You know the saying that a Momin is not stung twice from the same hole? Well in case of Gullible Pakistani population we are such a bunch of simpletons that we continue to get shafted by the same politicians again and again.

First thing you can not ignore, nor should rest of Pakistani, Pakistan was ruled for half of its life by Army Directly, remaining half was under civilian but hey were remote controlled(most of the time). Pakistan's suffering is attributed to all past rulers so Army has to share at least half of the blame. secondly Can you tell me who frames national defence policy, foreign policy and decides on other strategic issues? and remember if you make one wrong policy like Kargil-Taliban etc, no one of their idealogical and strategical fathers bears the cost that Pakistanis pay. Why American treat Pakistan like the do, they do because they know its not people who matter vis a vis US-Pak relationship nor Politicians, it is Army who call the shots. hence all failure, mishap and along with success falls on Army shoulders.
Blame for shortsightedness is correct, No one talks what Ayub did to Pakistan political culture, no one remembers what zia did to this country, no one reminds us that it was al mighty Gen Musharaf who allowed the US to operate incide Pakistan with freedom they cant dream of in US. No one reminds us why Generals n Politician invovled in East Pak debacle were never prosecuted(accept few low profile officers). No one remember the general who bribed the politicians for form an alliance against Bhutto.
Yes that show pakistani populace like other developing country is shortsighted.
Fuedal are suppressed- sorry to say you never seen life in rural sindh of south Punjab. It was bloody perhaps media that fabricated and hyped Mkhutaran otherwise life of poor people is just short of paradise in those regions,
Tribal maliks termination was wholely carried out by Taliban, govt always stood by maliks.
Mullah always sensationalise issues so that core issues should not be brought forward to ppl's sight.
Regarding ppl electing these damned politicians again and again, I will say how many free and fair elections ever held in Pakistan, we had onely one in 1970 after that NEVER.
Also Democracy is not just voting, it is free fair voting system couple with educated public who have the ability to make their own decisions. We just have votes where even urban voting is based on Baradary etc etc .
Why people votes on ethinicity,sect and baradary? Is it banned under the law to use sects, racism and ethnicity in election? if the are then why there are secretarian/ethnic parties and who created and finence them?

Two last Questions 1) Do yo honestly think that an officer of poor family but capable one can work as a defence secretary and Army Cheif will obey his orders?
under the law COAS falls under SoD is it?
2) will army agree to let Parliament discuss and decide on defence budget as happens in rest of the democratic world.

I wish all those 40000 civilian+Jawans who have died in this WoT since 2002, knew who is to blame for their death.

I salute all those JAWANS who sacreficed their life for the motherland and despise all those General+Politicians whose actions caused them to die.

 

[muse]

please suggest us an (workable) alternative. May be confronting a superpower would do, right?

If not, then dont complain, please.

Xeric:

If the Pak Fauj cannot defend Pakistan, then perhaps it might not lead Pakistan into one disaster after another -- It is amazing that those for whom the Pakistani nation sacrifices so much, feel no sense of shame, in instructing Pakistanis that they must swallow it -- How much more can the Pakistani nation take at the hands of those whose mission, whose sworn duty, is to protect Pakistan and Pakistanis -- One wonders how it was that Vietnam was able to make a impression on the US -- but you lot are so lazy that you do not even want to consider it, well, Army will sell the "Hate India" line and for the most part Pakistanis will find that it's better to be anti-India, but not pro-Pakistan.

So do us a favor you loyal only to yourselves Fauj, just don't create anymore problems for us, and since you can be a solution for us, you no longer have the right to squeeze us for more sacrifices, and if someone or some entity other than the Pakistan state is paying for your weapons and salaries and pensions, we need to know about it.

Amazing that oaths can be forfeit in the face of the very idea that this Fauj may actually have to fight and win - that's right, win, something it has in it's entire history, been unable to do.

 

[Xeric]

Am in kinda hurry, i havent gone through your entire post, but i know it doesnt include an answer to my question. Still, would be at your service when i return. Stay tuned.

 

[muse]

With that response it's not any wonder the Fauj has never won anything in it's entire history.

First you guys cannot fight but then you insist on taking a pangah with everyone - why? Is it because the only thing the Fauj has gotten used to doing is politics?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Perhaps people who speak in defence of Fauj need to answer one small question...

It has been 60 years that Fauj has not won against India over the issue of Kashmir... why?

How much longer do you need for that... If you had let the Tribals do it, they would ve done that by now... by themselves...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Musey please suggest us an (workable) alternative. May be confronting a superpower would do, right?

If not, then dont complain, please.

No one is asking to confront a superpower... there are nations weaker than us militarily that have a dignified stance when it comes to dealing with America...

 

[muse]

The problem is that these people won't even acknowledge how shameful it was the manner in which this was done -- newspapers are pointing to how the US dealt with Aimal Kansi and how this Sajjad towards Washington Fauj has dealt with the issue.

The army has already factored in that the Public will not take this indecent and shameless behavior, well, and notice they are all in hiding -- do they care about the impact on the institutions such as the Fauj? Does it appear like they care??

What I can't get over is persons who use to be in uniform advising that Pakistan make like a mouse and maybe the US's attention will be diverted -- gotta love those F16's, eh?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Bro Muse... your frustration/anger/disgust is totally justified... Problem is that the common man is shedding tears of agony in Pakistan... these elites in the military are taking the whole country for a ride and taking them for granted... soon inshaAllah a time will come when people would say enough is enough... it happened in countries like Egypt/Libya... they would be fools to think its not going to happen in Pakistan...

I said this before and some members disagreed with me... but the only enemy of Pakistan Army is India and with India also they have a status quo attitude... Stay back... we ll nuke you etc... meanwhile they are literally nuking their own country for their own sake... You look at the kind of facilities and benefits the military people enjoy in our country and you get hit instantly by the brutal contrast of Fauj and Awam living standards... and in all this our Army has never achieved a victory against India the one country it supposedly considers the enemy... They are good at slapping the nation, serving under criminals such as Zardari, licking the boots of America, accepting soy beans instead of F16s, forgiving millions in loans given to fellow Generals (thanks Musharaf), setting up groups like MQM and instilling sectarianism (thanks Zia), lose wars at the negotiation table (thanks Ayub), get drunk till they piss in the pants in public (you know who)... but nothing else... and you know what... most people reading this forum know all this is true... my only question is to the people who sincerely love Pakistan (not just hollow claims) as to when will all this end? Does this Fauj now want the educated middle class respectable member of society to start thinking that perhaps Taliban have a point... and that he should be saying Takbir Allah Akbar the next time someone kills poor Army jawan in a terrorist attack... Bro Agnos here is talking about constitution... the hell... do you really think the common man thinks about these things in this manner... what constitution are we abiding by?? Two innocent boys get beaten and lynched to death in broad day light in our country and no one knows the people involved in such brutal killings including the police standing as spectators will ever be punished and when... Our country has become a jungle... no one listens to the cries of the poor... during the floods last year I got involved in some relief work and the things that people were telling me, I felt going mad with grief and anger... I keep asking everyone... when will all this end?? You say one thing about bringing back some dignity to the country and its people and some people jump on you calling you unrealistic and someone who wants war with the West... If God forgives me for anything good in my life then it sure would be the Sabr I m showing in this time... this goes for the rest of the noble and decent people in Pakistan today...

 

[VCheng]

MBQ: You make some very good points.