Stop maligning the military

[Vinod2070]

Just be fair for a moment my dear. And have a look at all posts in the recent threads and see how many of us are blaming the army and how many are absolving it (as you put it) can I trust you to be fair and reconsider your comment?

Dear sir, I won't make any claims about being fair or not. That is not my call to judge myself.

I can only claim to trying to be objective and going by facts. And willing to be corrected if you present me facts to the contrary.

so was it Pakistan army mind controlling the Lawyers to oust Gen Musharraf? (shooting own foot comes to mind). take any Pakistani political talk show or a news analyst, take any political party in general and it wont feel "complete" without blaming army and its generals for the past and present state of affairs in Pakistan. its more of a fashion that has penetrated into the society to blame army. so my friend army is not influencing any such public opinion

You know that little thing about letting out the steam. They allow what doesn't hurt them too much.

They are not omnipotent anyway. They can't and don't control everything, just enough for them to be able to do what they want to.

Sometimes things go out of hands. Like in the lawyer's movement case.

Or if you want I can start listing the names of all the Pakistani members blaming army?

Do tell my dear. It just happens that a handful of us are not carried away by emotions and dare to present a different opinion.

I understand. In any situation, there are people standing on both sides. That is only fair.

And yes, I have seen many people being anti PA for now. I know this will change in a matter of days.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It's clear that the politicians have reconciled with the situation. Its anyway nothing more than fait accompli for them.

They knew it coming into the job and they know they will run to the military against each other the next time as well. They are playing along the charade.

Frankly no one seems to want the politicians to be accountable. Not the politicians themselves, not the army that keeps them on a tight leash and not even the public that distrusts them and thinks the PA is their only savior.

Things don't seem to be changing at all. The public clamored for democracy after a decade of the army rule. Now they will clamor for the army to come back after a few years of the democracy (with and hand and a leg tied).

I am focusing on the last part alone since that is really the context of the current debate - who bears responsibility for the Davis fiasco.

As I said elsewhere, do Pakistanis want representative government or martial law?

If Pakistanis want representative government, then they need to focus on their elected representatives and hold them accountable for policies, domestic and foreign, pursued/authorized by them. Pakistanis also need to demand that the various institutions function in the capacities that they are supposed to function in - the Army can provide input into foreign policy formulation, but it cannot coerce.

As pointed out, criticism of the Army, past and present, has become increasingly common and accepted on the Pakistani media, and civil society was able to join with the media in overthrowing a military dictator, and then hounding him out of the Presidency after elections. So there is nothing to indicate that in the Davis case the politicians were forced by the Army to release Davis. Now Pakistanis do not like the decision, so the people who need to be held accountable are these politicians, not the Army for essentially acting in a constitutional manner.

Think about it, what exactly are Pakistanis asking for by criticizing the Army? That it should influence foreign policy? If Pakistanis do not stop looking to the Army for 'fixing things' Pakistan's democracy will never grow and evolve, and our politicians will never learn. Regardless of the past influence of the Army on foreign policy, if the politicians pursue a particular policy, they need to be held responsible by the public.

If we are to help Pakistan's democracy grow, then the only time we should hold the Army responsible is when it acts on its own and pursues policies not endorsed by the political leadership, otherwise the politicians keep getting a 'get out of jail free card'. It sucks, but as many Indian posters have said, democracy can only improve if you give it time and stop looking to the Army for solutions.

Pakistanis are being shortsighted and hypocritical here in blaming the Army for the above reasons. If we want a representative government and we want it to grow and mature, then we need to hold the PPP and PML-N (or whichever party is governing) accountable, and only them accountable.

 

[Vinod2070]

I am focusing on the last part alone since that is really the context of the current debate - who bears responsibility for the Davis fiasco.

As I said elsewhere, do Pakistanis want representative government or martial law?

If Pakistanis want representative government, then they need to focus on their elected representatives and hold them accountable for policies, domestic and foreign, pursued/authorized by them. Pakistanis also need to demand that the various institutions function in the capacities that they are supposed to function in - the Army can provide input into foreign policy formulation, but it cannot coerce.

As pointed out, criticism of the Army, past and present, has become increasingly common and accepted on the Pakistani media, and civil society was able to join with the media in overthrowing a military dictator, and then hounding him out of the Presidency after elections. So there is nothing to indicate that in the Davis case the politicians were forced by the Army to release Davis. Now Pakistanis do not like the decision, so the people who need to be held accountable are these politicians, not the Army for essentially acting in a constitutional manner.

Think about it, what exactly are Pakistanis asking for by criticizing the Army? That it should influence foreign policy? If Pakistanis do not stop looking to the Army for 'fixing things' Pakistan's democracy will never grow and evolve, and our politicians will never learn. Regardless of the past influence of the Army on foreign policy, if the politicians pursue a particular policy, they need to be held responsible by the public.

If we are to help Pakistan's democracy grow, then the only time we should hold the Army responsible is when it acts on its own and pursues policies not endorsed by the political leadership, otherwise the politicians keep getting a 'get out of jail free card'. It sucks, but as many Indian posters have said, democracy can only improve if you give it time and stop looking to the Army for solutions.

Pakistanis are being shortsighted and hypocritical here in blaming the Army for the above reasons. If we want a representative government and we want it to grow and mature, then we need to hold the PPP and PML-N (or whichever party is governing) accountable, and only them accountable.

I see where you are coming from!

I am looking at the same situation from a different angle.

The politicians may be inept and worse, that is another issue.

Here the facts seem to be that they were not in the driver's seat at all. They don't control many facets of Pakistan's policy and this case fell in one of them.

So, while you can criticize them for not fighting it out to control what was rightfully in their domain, you can't fault them for the decisions that they were in no position to make.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I see where you are coming from!

I am looking at the same situation from a different angle.

The politicians may be inept and worse, that is another issue.

Here the facts seem to be that they were not in the driver's seat at all. They don't control many facets of Pakistan's policy and this case fell in one of them.

So, while you can criticize them for not fighting it out to control what was rightfully in their domain, you can't fault them for the decisions that they were in no position to make.

But they did make this decision - you can argue that the military has more influence, but since the politicians chose to also make the same decision, they assume primary responsibility. The Army vocally opposed the KLB, the government chose to still support it and defend it. The Government could have done the same here, opposed Davis's release and made its case to the media and put the Army under a lot of pressure. The Army is in no position to make unpopular decisions and get away with it currently.

Another example was when the COAS, a year or so ago, said that he was waiting for government authorization before an operation in NW. The PM came out and clearly said that the Army had government authorization to launch an operation in NW. The Army has since essentially taken responsibility for military ops in FATA, and NW specifically, by arguing that the launching of military operations in NW is not possible because of resource constraints.

I won't hold the politicians responsible for that, and I do not believe anyone in the media holds anyone but the Army responsible for military decisions in FATA.

So I do think that Pakistan has evolved enough already to where people are able to make these distinctions, and the political parties comfortable enough to speak out against the Army. In the Davis case, the PPP and PML-N did not at any point argue that the military was coercing them, in fact the liberal commentators in Pakistan were bashing the Army for forcing the PPP into a confrontation with the US, which Pakistan was ill prepared for. Surprising how that got turned into 'the Army was behind the Davis deal'.

 

[Vinod2070]

But they did make this decision - you can argue that the military has more influence, but since the politicians chose to also make the same decision, they assume primary responsibility. The Army vocally opposed the KLB, the government chose to still support it and defend it. The Government could have done the same here, opposed Davis's release and made its case to the media and put the Army under a lot of pressure. The Army is in no position to make unpopular decisions and get away with it currently.

Another example was when the COAS, a year or so ago, said that he was waiting for government authorization before an operation in NW. The PM came out and clearly said that the Army had government authorization to launch an operation in NW. The Army has since essentially taken responsibility for military ops in FATA, and NW specifically, by arguing that the launching of military operations in NW is not possible because of resource constraints.

I won't hold the politicians responsible for that, and I do not believe anyone in the media holds anyone but the Army responsible for military decisions in FATA.

So I do think that Pakistan has evolved enough already to where people are able to make these distinctions, and the political parties comfortable enough to speak out against the Army. In the Davis case, the PPP and PML-N did not at any point argue that the military was coercing them, in fact the liberal commentators in Pakistan were bashing the Army for forcing the PPP into a confrontation with the US, which Pakistan was ill prepared for. Surprising how that got turned into 'the Army was behind the Davis deal'.

Cool. I have nothing new to say for now.

I will wait for some more facts to come out that will hopefully conclusively prove who took the decision and what were the quid pro quo. As conclusive as it can be, I doubt there will be a smoking gun.

 

[Vinod2070]

So, it seems at least one Pakistani writer agrees it was an ISI/PA decision with no inputs from the PPP government.

It should not be ambiguous that the release came into being due to successful negotiations between the CIA in the US and the ISI in Pakistan. The PPP government, which has long ago surrendered its authority over foreign relations (especially with the US) to the military establishment, has no role in the release. The same is true about the PML-N led government in Punjab where Davis was kept under detention. Without the establishment’s involvement, the Pakistani judiciary could not have ordered Davis’s release. Justice to the heirs of the men killed by Davis is irrelevant in the establishment’s paradigm of national security. There are reports that the heirs of two of the dead men have been forced to accept a compromise for Davis’s release. The brother of the third man, Ibad-ur-Rahman, killed by a US diplomatic vehicle that rushed to Davis’s help, has told the media that his family is not part of the compromise nor has it been taken into confidence by the authorities.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[SparklingCrescent]

I was once a blind patriotic Pakistani a week ago, I was once an immature child who dreamed of enlisting in Pakistan Army for what "I" suspected it had achieved in Swat. However momentarily its true figure is unfolding. It is as exceptionally corrupt as our Government is. Everything operating in Pakistan is managed corresponding their necessities. I had, not ever trusted or relied on the horrific stories my friends and close ones in Swat once informed me about; that Taliban in Swat were freed in numbers despite their cruel and murderous backgrounds. Now witnessing with my very own eyes and ears, Raymond Davis that American terrorist being freed, any terrorist can be free. Welcome to Pakistan!

Innocent Pakistani solders, ranking form 2nd Lieutenant to Captains are dieing not for Pakistanis in Swat or FATA or Pakistan, but for the ineterest of their higher ranking officers.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I was once a blind patriotic Pakistani a week ago, I was once an immature child who dreamed of enlisting in Pakistan Army for what "I" suspected it had achieved in Swat. However momentarily its true figure is unfolding. It is as exceptionally corrupt as our Government is. Everything operating in Pakistan is managed corresponding their necessities. I had, not ever trusted or relied on the horrific stories my friends and close ones in Swat once informed me about; that Taliban in Swat were freed in numbers despite their cruel and murderous backgrounds. Now witnessing with my very own eyes and ears, Raymond Davis that American terrorist being freed, any terrorist can be free. Welcome to Pakistan!

Innocent Pakistani solders, ranking form 2nd Lieutenant to Captains are dieing not for Pakistanis in Swat or FATA or Pakistan, but for the ineterest of their higher ranking officers.

Indeed, after all the TTP that were based in Swat were angels. I mean what did they do, their only crime was the launch of massive suicide bombings that killed scores of civilians whom were Pakistanis, they brutally cracked down on the local population and ruled with an iron fist. Khuda ka Wasta yaar kuch apna damagh use karo jo Allah nay diya hai. These TTP pigs are nothing but animals, its in the interest of Pakistan to get rid of this menace once and for all. Why is it so hard for people to understand that.

 

[SparklingCrescent]

Indeed, after all the TTP that were based in Swat were angels. I mean what did they do, their only crime was the launch of massive suicide bombings that killed scores of civilians whom were Pakistanis, they brutally cracked down on the local population and ruled with an iron fist. Khuda ka Wasta yaar kuch apna damagh use karo jo Allah nay diya hai. These TTP pigs are nothing but animals, its in the interest of Pakistan to get rid of this menace once and for all. Why is it so hard for people to understand that.

Read the Part that I had highlighted for you and see if you can answer as to why that happened.

I was once a blind patriotic Pakistani a week ago, I was once an immature child who dreamed of enlisting in Pakistan Army for what "I" suspected it had achieved in Swat. However momentarily its true figure is unfolding. It is as exceptionally corrupt as our Government is. Everything operating in Pakistan is managed corresponding their necessities. I had, not ever trusted or relied on the horrific stories my friends and close ones in Swat once informed me about; that Taliban in Swat were freed in numbers despite their cruel and murderous backgrounds. Now witnessing with my very own eyes and ears, Raymond Davis that American terrorist being freed, any terrorist can be free. Welcome to Pakistan!

Innocent Pakistani solders, ranking form 2nd Lieutenant to Captains are dieing not for Pakistanis in Swat or FATA or Pakistan, but for the ineterest of their higher ranking officers.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So, it seems at least one Pakistani writer agrees it was an ISI/PA decision with no inputs from the PPP government.



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

lol - And not a surprise that it is Farhat Taj, whose credibility and bias on this issue is severely compromised given her past opinions and positions.

I expect Kamran Shafi and Ayesha Siddiqa to not be far behind in parroting this line, which lacks any substantiation whatsoever.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I was once a blind patriotic Pakistani a week ago, I was once an immature child who dreamed of enlisting in Pakistan Army for what "I" suspected it had achieved in Swat. However momentarily its true figure is unfolding. It is as exceptionally corrupt as our Government is. Everything operating in Pakistan is managed corresponding their necessities. I had, not ever trusted or relied on the horrific stories my friends and close ones in Swat once informed me about; that Taliban in Swat were freed in numbers despite their cruel and murderous backgrounds. Now witnessing with my very own eyes and ears, Raymond Davis that American terrorist being freed, any terrorist can be free. Welcome to Pakistan!

Innocent Pakistani solders, ranking form 2nd Lieutenant to Captains are dieing not for Pakistanis in Swat or FATA or Pakistan, but for the ineterest of their higher ranking officers.

I believe that might have been the case before the military operation in Swat, because if you remember, the Government and Army were trying to get the conflict resolved through dialog and an implementation of the Nizam-e-Adl package. There was no support for military operations amongst Pakistanis at that point, and everyone wanted to give 'dialog' a chance. Obviously, while unpalatable, when negotiations are the main avenue of conflict resolution, the Army and government did release militants in order to continue negotiating and in some cases meet direct demands of the Taliban.

It was a flawed strategy, but when there was no support from the public for launching military operations, what was the Army and GoP to do?

Once Sufi Mohammed opened his mouth and condemned democracy and the judiciary, and the Taliban whipped that girl in open and then started advancing towards Islamabad, Pakistani opinion changed and support for the military operations grew.

Please contrast the situation in Swat pre-operation and post-operation.

Swat is probably more peaceful than Lahore now, in terms of the number of terrorist attacks, and no more do we hear stories of 'militant intimidation and beheadings'. The current situation and peace in Swat would not be possible if the Army was still simply releasing terrorists or supporting them. One can easily gauge the truth from observing the reality on the ground, and the reality of the situation in Swat currently does not support the claims made by you/your friends.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

The Army standing in Pakistan was going up and every one knew its the Army which will come to help them in case extremist comes (Swat) or natural disaster will happen but this corruption of extensions in jobs in high up has once again force people to think if Army high ups are part of PPP government.
Why would black sheep of PPPP are giving extensions ?????? they are afraid other Generals will not say "Yes Sir".

 

[DV RULES]

I was once a blind patriotic Pakistani a week ago, I was once an immature child who dreamed of enlisting in Pakistan Army for what "I" suspected it had achieved in Swat. However momentarily its true figure is unfolding. It is as exceptionally corrupt as our Government is. Everything operating in Pakistan is managed corresponding their necessities. I had, not ever trusted or relied on the horrific stories my friends and close ones in Swat once informed me about; that Taliban in Swat were freed in numbers despite their cruel and murderous backgrounds. Now witnessing with my very own eyes and ears, Raymond Davis that American terrorist being freed, any terrorist can be free. Welcome to Pakistan!

Innocent Pakistani solders, ranking form 2nd Lieutenant to Captains are dieing not for Pakistanis in Swat or FATA or Pakistan, but for the ineterest of their higher ranking officers.

We will criticize army & ISI till we don't know what agreement they made with CIA, our emotions have own place in all this situation but we must understand that our respect & trust for PA not to be loose.

If there were questions upon army involvement then you first bring into discussion more & most traitors politicians and leaders.
This was army who serve nation in flood time when head of state leader of thousands of JIALAS went UK.

Message already has had convey (protests & criticism) so it is time to support PA & ISI and strengthen Pakistan.

 

[SparklingCrescent]

Pakistan Army was not operating under any strategy or setup. Didn't they entirely ignore the thousands that died previous the negotiation? You pointed it out yourself, beheadings arranged all throughout Swat. FC troops, Police hung upside down, tied from legs on poles with messages stapled to there decapitated heads alleging to other people that they will earn the same fate. These sorts of executions were carried out for more than a year way before Pakistan Army even imagined a negotiation. Was this not enough brutality to start an Operation? What the hells the need for Negotiations and support when ordinary Pakistani citizens along with government officials including ANP members and FC/Police were being slaughtered everywhere?

By the way, let me share my own experience with you. My uncle and 2 cousins (RIP) were also blind Patriotic Pakistanis like I was. At the start of the Operation one of my cousin had reported to an Army personal that a few Talibs were living nearby. And guess what happened that same night? Over 200 fully armed Taliban had come right at my cousins door at night/early in the morning dark, he along with his brother and father were dragged outside half asleep and were yelling. They were bullet riddled right at that spot. An Army checkpost was stationed a few meters away and was loaded with soldiers. Not even after gun shots did they take a chance to come against the Taliban. (Read the full story here, these are my own 2 cousins and uncle, In The Memory of Abbas Khan) This is what we went through because of the Army. Now can you tell me, was this also a part of the negotiation?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan Army was not operating under any strategy, did it not mind the thousands that died before the operation? You just named it yourself, beheadings done everywhere, FC troops, Police hung upside down on poles with messages saying other people will get the same fate. This was going on for more than a year way before Pakistan Army even thought of starting an Operation. Was this not enough brutality to start an Operation? What the hells the need for Negotiations and support when ordinary Pakistani citizens and government officials including ANP members and FC/Police were being slaughtered everywhere?

Because that is what the people of Pakistan and a lot of political parties, especially the PML-N, wanted - dialog and negotiations to end the conflict.

The Army was already very unpopular because of Musharraf and the judiciary issue, and its troop deployments in FATA had come under heavy criticism from the media, political parties and ordinary Pakistanis. There was also the Lal Masjid operation that was heavily criticized. Add in the fact that any major operation in Swat involved the displacement of millions of people (which is what we saw happen eventually) and it should be obvious to you why the military did not launch a military operation on its own initiative.

Criticizm is fine, but senseless criticizm without understanding the constraints at the time is counterproductive and dishonest.

By the way, let me share my own experience with you. My uncle and 2 cousins (RIP) were also blind Patriotic Pakistanis like I was. At the start of the Operation one of my cousin had reported to an Army personal that a few Talibs were living nearby. And guess what happened that same night? Over 200 fully armed Taliban had come right at my cousins door at night/early in the morning dark, he along with his brother and father were dragged outside half asleep and were yelling. They were bullet riddled right at that spot. An Army checkpost was stationed a few meters away and was loaded with soldiers. Not even after gun shots did they take a chance to come against the Taliban. (Read the full story here, these are my own 2 cousins and uncle, In The Memory of Abbas Khan) This is what we went through because of the Army. Now can you tell me, was this also a part of the negotiation?

I am very sorry to hear about your loss, and yours was not the only incident that was highlighted in the media and criticized. The commanding officer in Swat was in fact asked to explain a similar incident, and other soldiers were asked to explain why they did not attack Taliban militants when they were carrying out an attack on locals within their sight. The responses in both cases was that the soldiers had received orders to not engage the Taliban, except in self-defense when under direct attack from the militants. This command was issued so as to not jeopardize the negotiations process.

Pakistani soldiers were also killed in such incidents. Unfortunately this is what the whole policy of 'dialog' demanded by Pakistanis and the political parties required.

An insurgency cannot be successfully fought without public support, and there was simply no support for military operations at that point, hence the pursuit of this flawed policy till Pakistanis 'woke up'. If any one is to blame here (at that point in time), I would argue it was the media and politicians, who vehemently criticized the Army for operations (which were in fact very limited under Musharraf compared to under Kiyani) in Lal Masjid and Fata, and even the limited operations in Swat at that point, and influenced Pakistani opinion to become strongly anti-Army and anti military operations.