Stop maligning the military
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AgNoStiC MuSliM
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Qureshi was fired by Zardari, not the Army, for opposing the release of Davis, and his comments after removal were highly critical of the PPP leadership in supporting the release of Davis regardless of his diplomatic status.
In this case at least, the PPP. PML-N and Army were on the same page, and therefore the responsibility lies with the PPP and PML-N primarily since they are the elected representatives. If the PPP and PML-N had opposed the release, and the Army forced them to release Davis, that would be the only case in which the Army would primarily responsible.
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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Exactly - PPP fired Qureshi as foreign minister because he was refusing to forge documents and grant Davis immunity.
And we all know how 'brave' Nawaz Sharif is given his groveling capitulation in front of Bill Clinton during Kargil.
muse
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But of course there also this:
Deal being questioned even by those who shouldn`t
March 18, 2011 (2 days ago)
By Baqir Sajjad Syed
ISLAMABAD: The agreement between ISI and CIA that helped end the stalemate between Pakistan and the United States over American spy Raymond Davis is being increasingly questioned at home — even by the political parties which are believed to have helped arrange the blood money deal.
Davis flew out of Pakistan on Wednesday after $2.3 million was paid in blood money to heirs of the two youths he had killed on Jan 27, but what made this settlement possible through Shariah law were successful negotiations between the two spy agencies which had been at odds because of differences over `operational matters`.
But no one among the political leadership is sure about what was secured and what was conceded by the two agencies and as one politician put it: “Deals having strategic implications should be shared with parliament. ISI and army can no more enjoy the exclusivity they once had.”
Unlike the past where few questions were asked about secret pacts with the US, including the one on drones, there is this time a growing chorus within the country demanding full disclosure of the new CIA-ISI understanding, which is being broadly defined as “redefinition of the cooperation parameters” or “discussions on the contours of engagement”.
A statement issued by the office of Leader of Opposition in the National Assembly Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan accused the government of a sell-out and said: “Those who took this major step should have the moral courage to accept it and disclose it before the nation.”
However, Pakistani and American sources claim that the PML-N leadership was one of the four architects of the blood money agreement that followed the ISI-CIA rapprochement, even though it now wants to shrug off all responsibility.
Rightwing Jamaat-i-Islami has filed an adjournment motion in the Senate and called for an explanation of roles of the federal and provincial governments, subordinate judiciary and intelligence agencies in the matter.
Talking to reporters, veteran politician Aftab Ahmad Sherpao said Davis`s surprise release proved that all matters had been resolved earlier.
“CIA may have secured strategic interests in the dialogue, while ISI could have gained institutional interests, but what did the people of Pakistan gain out of this deal?” another politician asked.
Most of Pakistan-US furtive deals have been hidden in the secretive world of intelligence. The only information available to the public about the ISI-CIA patch-up is that the American spy agency would be more respectful and more transparent in dealings with its Pakistani partner. Besides, it is claimed that the operational space for CIA, which previously enjoyed unbridled freedom, will be cut down.
The Americans have, on their part, successfully avoided a ruling on immunity for the CIA contractor. An adverse ruling could have affected CIA`s covert operations worldwid
Deal being questioned even by those who shouldn`t
March 18, 2011 (2 days ago)
By Baqir Sajjad Syed
ISLAMABAD: The agreement between ISI and CIA that helped end the stalemate between Pakistan and the United States over American spy Raymond Davis is being increasingly questioned at home — even by the political parties which are believed to have helped arrange the blood money deal.
Davis flew out of Pakistan on Wednesday after $2.3 million was paid in blood money to heirs of the two youths he had killed on Jan 27, but what made this settlement possible through Shariah law were successful negotiations between the two spy agencies which had been at odds because of differences over `operational matters`.
But no one among the political leadership is sure about what was secured and what was conceded by the two agencies and as one politician put it: “Deals having strategic implications should be shared with parliament. ISI and army can no more enjoy the exclusivity they once had.”
Unlike the past where few questions were asked about secret pacts with the US, including the one on drones, there is this time a growing chorus within the country demanding full disclosure of the new CIA-ISI understanding, which is being broadly defined as “redefinition of the cooperation parameters” or “discussions on the contours of engagement”.
A statement issued by the office of Leader of Opposition in the National Assembly Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan accused the government of a sell-out and said: “Those who took this major step should have the moral courage to accept it and disclose it before the nation.”
However, Pakistani and American sources claim that the PML-N leadership was one of the four architects of the blood money agreement that followed the ISI-CIA rapprochement, even though it now wants to shrug off all responsibility.
Rightwing Jamaat-i-Islami has filed an adjournment motion in the Senate and called for an explanation of roles of the federal and provincial governments, subordinate judiciary and intelligence agencies in the matter.
Talking to reporters, veteran politician Aftab Ahmad Sherpao said Davis`s surprise release proved that all matters had been resolved earlier.
“CIA may have secured strategic interests in the dialogue, while ISI could have gained institutional interests, but what did the people of Pakistan gain out of this deal?” another politician asked.
Most of Pakistan-US furtive deals have been hidden in the secretive world of intelligence. The only information available to the public about the ISI-CIA patch-up is that the American spy agency would be more respectful and more transparent in dealings with its Pakistani partner. Besides, it is claimed that the operational space for CIA, which previously enjoyed unbridled freedom, will be cut down.
The Americans have, on their part, successfully avoided a ruling on immunity for the CIA contractor. An adverse ruling could have affected CIA`s covert operations worldwid
SparklingCrescent
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So what did we gain out of this private deal? Anybody that don't mind explaining?
Xeric
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Irfan Baloch
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Mr Zardari wont allow the foreign office to disclose the reality of RD's status and our lion hearted Amir Al Monieen "bravely" made a tactical manoeuvre moving out of the country.
Them aside. I think just like last time the lawyers managed to re-install their CJ back in the office and forced the face of the GHQ out of the power.
Our right wing media and Jamaat Islami had Burka aunty reinstated into Lal Masjid
I think it’s the time for our enlightened GHQ hating brigade to get off their arses and come on the roads and lead the public to force the GHQ to come clean on this whole issue of RD and both Kyani and Pasha should personally apologise for being even born. Take the blame for doubling of the debt, sacking of Qurashi and judgement regarding RD.
Once this is done I am sure our liberal elite will find something else to bicker on. Until then its time to get going.
muse
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But there is also this nuanced, if cynical piece:
Pak-US tensions undermine fight against terror
Yesterday
By Cyril Almeida
PESHAWAR: A day after drone-fired missiles killed at least 45 people in the Dattakhel area of North Waziristan Agency, tensions between the US and Pakistan once again threatened to overshadow the fight against militancy in the region, according to officials and analysts in the provincial capital of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.
“Relations are bad and will get worse and will take away from the war on terror,” warned Brig (retd) Mehmood Shah, a former security secretary of Fata.
The CIA-run drone programme and the minutiae of Pak-US relations are shrouded in secrecy, but analysts and officials were unanimous in their opinion about at least three matters.
One, Thursday’s drone strike killed many non-militant tribals, including khasadars, who had gathered to resolve a local dispute. Two, the strike was a deliberate and provocative message from the US to the Pakistan Army. Three, the domestic criticism of the army in the wake of the release of Raymond Davis has played some part in Gen Kayani’s condemnation of the drone strike.
The drone strikes in an open field in Nevi Adda Shega occurred when members of the Madakhel tribe had convened a jirga to decide a dispute over a chromite mine in the area. Khasadars (members of a lightly armed local police force) and some other local officials were also present at the site of the attack. Tariq Hayat, secretary law and order, Fata, confirmed the civilian and police casualties.
However, while many of those killed were local tribesmen and not necessarily militants, there is some uncertainty over the exact circumstances of the attack.
According to a senior analyst who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect local sources, the drones had initially fired at a car carrying five militants very close to the jirga. Having missed the first time, the drones fired again, this time killing both the occupants of the car and many people on the ground.
A Fata official appeared to corroborate this version and mentioned “people passing by in the area” who may have been the actual target.
However, other analysts were dismissive. “Drones are so accurate that they can get people on motorcycles now. There is pinpoint accuracy. They hit what they intend to hit,” claimed a security analyst with some knowledge of the drone-strike programme.
While the exact circumstances of the drone strike may never be known, there is little uncertainty about the message it was intended to convey.
Coming on the heels of the release of US covert operative Raymond Davis, the drone strike is a sign of America’s continuing “unhappiness with the Pak command structure”, according to Khalid Aziz.
Brig Shah was also unequivocal: “This is an arrogant US response. Twelve missiles in one day is not routine. The message was clear and categorical: we will do what we want.”
While security officials have leaked suggestions to the media that the resolution of the Raymond Davis affair also involved some understanding on redrawing the contours of the Pak-US relationship, most analysts were sceptical.
“Look what (the Americans) did the day after (Davis’s release). If there was a deal, it was clearly a weak deal or possibly involved personal interests, not national interests”, claimed a security analyst who requested anonymity to speak candidly about the army-led security establishment.
If the American action was harsh, the Pakistan response in the form of a strong statement by Gen Kayani has been interpreted as equally worrying for the state of Pak-US relations.
“This is extreme messaging by both sides. If we become rigid, America will disengage. Conditions in Afghanistan could worsen, but Pakistan has financial and other constraints,” said Khalid Aziz, adding, “Who wins in that scenario?”
But a senior Fata official claimed, “We are not Djibouti or Algeria, we are a nuclear state, we are Pakistan. The Americans need to respect us.”
Rahimullah Yusufzai, a prominent expert on the region, was more circumspect: “Both sides need each other and both sides know it, so there won’t be a break. But there is no sincerity in the relationship, it is purely opportunistic. So things are bad and will be bad every step of the way.”
Indeed, part of the Pakistan Army’s response to Thursday’s drone strike has been attributed by analysts to domestic compulsions.
According to Mr Yusufzai, “Kayani had to react” to avoid local consequences. These included the possibility of retaliatory attacks against the army by angry Fata tribesmen and maintaining the morale of the security forces given that khasadars and other local officials had died in the drone strike.
Others, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, suggested the backlash from sections of the media and the public over the release of Raymond Davis had factored into the army’s calculations.
“The internet is full of stories about a payoff to Gen Kayani (for Davis’s release). The army was losing credibility,” claimed a security analyst who suggested the army’s furious response to the American drone strike is “one of those games”.
Another security expert said, “Gen Kayani must have thought through this statement. The Raymond Davis release embarrassed the army and it couldn’t afford to look weak twice in succession.”
On the streets of Peshawar, however, there was little sign yesterday that Raymond Davis, Thursday’s drone strike, American pressure or the state of US-Pak relations were of much concern to the public.
Outside the Madni Masjid in Namak Mandi, riot police, TV crews and a few curious onlookers gathered in anticipation of a protest by the JUI-F following Friday prayers.
At 3pm, a pot-bellied bearded man with a bullhorn in hand emerged from the mosque shouting anti-America slogans. He was followed by less than a hundred protesters, many of them children.
Similar protests planned by the PTI and Jamaat-i-Islami in other parts of Peshawar also fizzled.
Back at Namak Mandi, a shopkeeper gestured towards the mosque and shrugged, “They’ve taken dollars and now they are talking about protests.” Customers nodded their heads in agreement, going about their Friday afternoon business.
In Peshawar at least, the rhythms of everyday life were not to be disturbed by political storms and international spats.
Pak-US tensions undermine fight against terror
Yesterday
By Cyril Almeida
PESHAWAR: A day after drone-fired missiles killed at least 45 people in the Dattakhel area of North Waziristan Agency, tensions between the US and Pakistan once again threatened to overshadow the fight against militancy in the region, according to officials and analysts in the provincial capital of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.
“Relations are bad and will get worse and will take away from the war on terror,” warned Brig (retd) Mehmood Shah, a former security secretary of Fata.
The CIA-run drone programme and the minutiae of Pak-US relations are shrouded in secrecy, but analysts and officials were unanimous in their opinion about at least three matters.
One, Thursday’s drone strike killed many non-militant tribals, including khasadars, who had gathered to resolve a local dispute. Two, the strike was a deliberate and provocative message from the US to the Pakistan Army. Three, the domestic criticism of the army in the wake of the release of Raymond Davis has played some part in Gen Kayani’s condemnation of the drone strike.
The drone strikes in an open field in Nevi Adda Shega occurred when members of the Madakhel tribe had convened a jirga to decide a dispute over a chromite mine in the area. Khasadars (members of a lightly armed local police force) and some other local officials were also present at the site of the attack. Tariq Hayat, secretary law and order, Fata, confirmed the civilian and police casualties.
However, while many of those killed were local tribesmen and not necessarily militants, there is some uncertainty over the exact circumstances of the attack.
According to a senior analyst who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect local sources, the drones had initially fired at a car carrying five militants very close to the jirga. Having missed the first time, the drones fired again, this time killing both the occupants of the car and many people on the ground.
A Fata official appeared to corroborate this version and mentioned “people passing by in the area” who may have been the actual target.
However, other analysts were dismissive. “Drones are so accurate that they can get people on motorcycles now. There is pinpoint accuracy. They hit what they intend to hit,” claimed a security analyst with some knowledge of the drone-strike programme.
While the exact circumstances of the drone strike may never be known, there is little uncertainty about the message it was intended to convey.
Coming on the heels of the release of US covert operative Raymond Davis, the drone strike is a sign of America’s continuing “unhappiness with the Pak command structure”, according to Khalid Aziz.
Brig Shah was also unequivocal: “This is an arrogant US response. Twelve missiles in one day is not routine. The message was clear and categorical: we will do what we want.”
While security officials have leaked suggestions to the media that the resolution of the Raymond Davis affair also involved some understanding on redrawing the contours of the Pak-US relationship, most analysts were sceptical.
“Look what (the Americans) did the day after (Davis’s release). If there was a deal, it was clearly a weak deal or possibly involved personal interests, not national interests”, claimed a security analyst who requested anonymity to speak candidly about the army-led security establishment.
If the American action was harsh, the Pakistan response in the form of a strong statement by Gen Kayani has been interpreted as equally worrying for the state of Pak-US relations.
“This is extreme messaging by both sides. If we become rigid, America will disengage. Conditions in Afghanistan could worsen, but Pakistan has financial and other constraints,” said Khalid Aziz, adding, “Who wins in that scenario?”
But a senior Fata official claimed, “We are not Djibouti or Algeria, we are a nuclear state, we are Pakistan. The Americans need to respect us.”
Rahimullah Yusufzai, a prominent expert on the region, was more circumspect: “Both sides need each other and both sides know it, so there won’t be a break. But there is no sincerity in the relationship, it is purely opportunistic. So things are bad and will be bad every step of the way.”
Indeed, part of the Pakistan Army’s response to Thursday’s drone strike has been attributed by analysts to domestic compulsions.
According to Mr Yusufzai, “Kayani had to react” to avoid local consequences. These included the possibility of retaliatory attacks against the army by angry Fata tribesmen and maintaining the morale of the security forces given that khasadars and other local officials had died in the drone strike.
Others, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, suggested the backlash from sections of the media and the public over the release of Raymond Davis had factored into the army’s calculations.
“The internet is full of stories about a payoff to Gen Kayani (for Davis’s release). The army was losing credibility,” claimed a security analyst who suggested the army’s furious response to the American drone strike is “one of those games”.
Another security expert said, “Gen Kayani must have thought through this statement. The Raymond Davis release embarrassed the army and it couldn’t afford to look weak twice in succession.”
On the streets of Peshawar, however, there was little sign yesterday that Raymond Davis, Thursday’s drone strike, American pressure or the state of US-Pak relations were of much concern to the public.
Outside the Madni Masjid in Namak Mandi, riot police, TV crews and a few curious onlookers gathered in anticipation of a protest by the JUI-F following Friday prayers.
At 3pm, a pot-bellied bearded man with a bullhorn in hand emerged from the mosque shouting anti-America slogans. He was followed by less than a hundred protesters, many of them children.
Similar protests planned by the PTI and Jamaat-i-Islami in other parts of Peshawar also fizzled.
Back at Namak Mandi, a shopkeeper gestured towards the mosque and shrugged, “They’ve taken dollars and now they are talking about protests.” Customers nodded their heads in agreement, going about their Friday afternoon business.
In Peshawar at least, the rhythms of everyday life were not to be disturbed by political storms and international spats.
Vinod2070
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Well, you must be aware more than me about the fact that there may be other reasons for Qureshi's exit than his "principled position" on this issue. Even I have read of this despite my limited following on these issues. You don't really expect ministers to resign on principles, do you?
Of course, he tried to use it to try and become a martyr.
Also, the PA has long taken the space of foreign policy (especially security issues and relations with USA and China etc.) from the politicians. They are just convenient scapegoats to direct the public anger.
Power without responsibility at its best.
Now, you must have surely read of the long wrangling between CIA and ISI on this issue and how a personal meeting between Kayani and US army officials in a secluded villa in Oman brought about the final deal.
We can blame the politicians all we want. In this case the decision had nothing to do with them.
Anyone who thinks that Pakistan's security and foreign policies are run exclusively by the politicians needs a history lesson in Pakistani politics going as far back as 1958. (Feel free to go over my IP, I am not an Indian)
It's extremely easy to point fingers at politicians, when the going gets tough - try doing the same when Army accepts a generous amount of aid via Kerry Lugur bill as well. Remember the ruckus over that issue, when it was suggested that civilians will control the flow of money?
Army and the Politicians can either point fingers at each other and look like fools, all around - or they can collectively think about the good of the nation. Otherwise, there will be no country left to govern and defend.
It's extremely easy to point fingers at politicians, when the going gets tough - try doing the same when Army accepts a generous amount of aid via Kerry Lugur bill as well. Remember the ruckus over that issue, when it was suggested that civilians will control the flow of money?
Army and the Politicians can either point fingers at each other and look like fools, all around - or they can collectively think about the good of the nation. Otherwise, there will be no country left to govern and defend.
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Army Army Army damn What ARmy did EXTREMELY SO SPECIAL for this country ?? lost 3 wars ... making fool to whole nation from last 60 years.... how these military officers generals bridg made huge houses owned 4 4 5 5 10 10 cars ????? selling this state in front of others like Musharaf ***** Zia Ayub and rest of others...
batain karna politices ko bara asaan hey !!! these so called politcal parties cant do anything WITHTOUT ARMY ISI Approval.. dunya ko ***** bana rakha hey is Army nay!
Nuclear nuclear Nuclear wth .. I BET ON THIS America strike karay inka BAAP b nuclear kya eek bomb nahe chalayga! ye army churyaan pehan lay tu ziada behtar hey!!!
Afsoos hota hey when you see normal very low level Army soilder standing on Rawalpindi and Islamabad Roads for PROTOCOLs for these B***** generals defend... woh b soochta hoga Army may gaya tha mulk ko defend karnay aur yahan apnay he mulk ke road par khara hokar apnay leaders ko defend kar raha hoo!! damn these chiefs Brdg etc..
batain karna politices ko bara asaan hey !!! these so called politcal parties cant do anything WITHTOUT ARMY ISI Approval.. dunya ko ***** bana rakha hey is Army nay!
Nuclear nuclear Nuclear wth .. I BET ON THIS America strike karay inka BAAP b nuclear kya eek bomb nahe chalayga! ye army churyaan pehan lay tu ziada behtar hey!!!
Afsoos hota hey when you see normal very low level Army soilder standing on Rawalpindi and Islamabad Roads for PROTOCOLs for these B***** generals defend... woh b soochta hoga Army may gaya tha mulk ko defend karnay aur yahan apnay he mulk ke road par khara hokar apnay leaders ko defend kar raha hoo!! damn these chiefs Brdg etc..
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which kind of propaganda you are talking about DRONE TAKEOFF LAND INSIDE PAKISTAN and ON PAKISTAN BASES... Which kind of propaganda against Pakistan ARmy.. THE FACT IS FACT ... Army performance already expose in front of whole nation today from school level - to - universty single from group every person either male or female shouting over performance of this ARMY ... there is no propoganda when DRONE strike inside pakistan and from PAKISTAN (bases) so very first thing in any common person is "Where are our Defenders ? or defender of this nation because its strike by ENEMY and All those are consider as a Enemy who violate your Airspace or a ground from outside border". Remember people are damn care about humty dumty stories of this Taliban TTP etc cartoonish stories and those who have some faith on these things already change thr minds and now everyone have just 1 think... Where and What Pakistan Army is doing thats it .... you made more terrorist everyday! ... infact they are not actually terrorist when someone kill you parents mother father sister brother what you will be after ????
hope you understand my point!!!
In every morning when i am going to my office i am extremely disapoint when i see many low level ranking soldiers standing on the footpath of Rawalpindi and Islamabad for just to defend these Generals brig who got money from US and do everything what US want against this country. We are paying taxes just only 16 lacs people of this 18 crore nation paying taxes i am one of them ... Let me ask you a simple question. I have listening this BS since my childhood ISI is DAMN DAMN super duper agency ... can u answer of my question Why this ISI working for USA ?? in 1980s ??? more thn 300 Sucide Attacks in Pakistan since last 8 years which performance and propoganda you are talking about bhai ?? kis dunya may bhetay ho Where and what agency are doing ??
In PAKISTAN's TOP COURT Include SUPREME COURT issues not even resolve in 1 year how this raymond davis issue court kachaeri issue finished with in JUST 1 month ? yaar for godsake
All the time we are blaming Islam (Islam is the MOST CLEAN AND FAIR RELIGION even accepted by non believers) We are talking about Dayat in Raymond issue ... oo bhai when you put GUN on the pooor people who even dont know what is the meaning of million billion. Who even not seen 5,000 in thr whole life and you put guns on thr head and order "ACCEPT OR WE WILL KILL YOU" what they will do ??
This Time US ARMY ISI and GOVT of Pakistan all impose these bs to the families and again for OWN FAVOR use Islamic stuff (like diyat) so that if any kind of blame after raymond direct people of this nation blame Islam and DIYAT not COURT man stop making jokes people of this nation not like 1990s when Army ISI and GOVT say WE ARE LORDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS and people of this nation start clapping!
Hope you understand my points!
So performance is sooo PATHETIC!
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It saved your butt from almost every evil.
When one is up against a superior entity, victory or loss become insignificant. The only thing that matter then is survival, which we did.
How did the politicians made them? How did the civil servants made them?
BTW, not every officer owns 4 4 5 5 10 10 cars. And those who does can either afford them because of their background or in the worst case did earn it from illegal means, we have black sheep everywhere in this country, dont we? Moreover, a senior officer in the armed forces earns quite a handsome amount of money, further, how about an officer because of his guud career profile managed to earned numerous assignments/secondments abroad and did actually made 4 4 5 5 10 10 cars from his hard earned money?
The politicians and the civilian bureaucracy did the same, you cannot hold the military accountable alone. They come from the same Nation who is still under the influence of ghulami, so there's no need to expect much guud from the military alone. Grow up.
Why dont the political parties earn enough clout to resist military's influence. No one is gonna respect you or accept your authority unless you are upto it. It's that simple.
Had that been the case you probably had been writing this from a cave somewhere deep inside Pakistan and not from you cozy couch.
Suggestion ignored.
Bad for you. Wo yeh nahi sochta, agar sochta hota you Army Recruitment Centers pe recruitment shoro honay say 5, 5 din pehlay lines lagna bund ho chuki hoti. Fortunately, the soldiers are immune to such propaganda, say thanks to a deliberate procedure the defence forces have in place to take care of such bee ess.
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