Stop maligning the military

[Alla hoo]

It saved your butt from almost every evil.

It initially created the "almost every evil" and then showed you that it is saving your butt from the very same "almost every evil".

So that all the diversion of common mans fund in Armys pockets could be justified. As simple as that.

Army does not want to lose the grip of power even if it costs pakistan the cost that it is suffering and will be suffering in future.

 

[VCheng]

I agree with Xeric in as much that one CANNOT single out the military for vilification or to be held accountable alone.

However, I will say that the military is an equal partner in a cabal of players, each plundering Pakistan and its people for their own selfish advantages. There is more than enough blame and evidence to point out politicians, career bureaucrats, judiciary, army brass, religious leaders, and elected and appointed officials at local, provincial and federal levels, for the present dire socioeconomic conditions being faced by a vast majoirity of Pakistanis.

"Iss hamaam mein sab nangey hein."

Merely surviving is no measure of success. With the increasing competition for resources, and the requirements of education, health and economic productivity to survive in the global knowledge based markets, Pakistan has a lot of catching up to do if it is to take its righful place in the international community.

I am truly sad to say that I don't see any tangible evidence that would give me cause for optimism, but I still will keeping on hoping and praying for such a miracle to happen.

 

[Rank]

It saved your butt from almost every evil.

ya We saw ... 32,000 people died since last 8 years What a saved !!! Drone strikes everyday "WHAT A SAVED".

When one is up against a superior entity, victory or loss become insignificant. The only thing that matter then is survival, which we did.

Superb Survival .... East Pakistan... Siachin .... and now Balochistan and NWFP .. full of burning... nice nice lovly survival!

How did the politicians made them? How did the civil servants made them?

BTW, not every officer owns 4 4 5 5 10 10 cars. And those who does can either afford them because of their background or in the worst case did earn it from illegal means, we have black sheep everywhere in this country, dont we? Moreover, a senior officer in the armed forces earns quite a handsome amount of money, further, how about an officer because of his guud career profile managed to earned numerous assignments/secondments abroad and did actually made 4 4 5 5 10 10 cars from his hard earned money?

First i never defend these rat mouse like politicians nor i defend in my any post .... i am just talking about Army and the performance of Army thats it.... come and see situation in Pakistan how these Senior officers and thr children act on the street and in every place ... you will better know is that Army or "Badmash".

The politicians and the civilian bureaucracy did the same, you cannot hold the military accountable alone. They come from the same Nation who is still under the influence of ghulami, so there's no need to expect much guud from the military alone. Grow up.

lol @ your statement! 4 times marshal law... and you are still thinking that there is really politicians (real civil political background) and Rule of Law exsist wow! amazing your post make me Laugh!

Why dont the political parties earn enough clout to resist military's influence. No one is gonna respect you or accept your authority unless you are upto it. It's that simple.

Hope this thing understand by our Army first "PRECEPTION IS EVERYTHING" so the perception is now against Army in this whole nation....

Bad for you. Wo yeh nahi sochta, agar sochta hota you Army Recruitment Centers pe recruitment shoro honay say 5, 5 din pehlay lines lagna bund ho chuki hoti. Fortunately, the soldiers are immune to such propaganda, say thanks to a deliberate procedure the defence forces have in place to take care of such bee ess.

Good Answer

 

[Xeric]

It initially created the "almost every evil" and then showed you that it is saving your butt from the very same "almost every evil".

No it did not creat the 'evil' (alone).

Was Al Qaeda created by ISI?

Was TNSM the brain child of the Army?

Was BRA/BLA created by the military?

And who created the talibans? The ISI? No, it was created on the behest of CIA and the West, yes surely we did assist them. But at the time when this was happening you and the entire world was praising us, but when the yanks left the Afghans half-cocked (which was the main reason for the taliban taking full cntrol of Afg), none raised any eyebrows. So now when they are back reminding us all how fcuked up the US' end game Afghanistan was, we all feel very easy to scapegoat Pakistan's Army for it!

So that all the diversion of common mans fund in Armys pockets could be justified. As simple as that.

Is it why the IA keeps Kashmir boiling and allow indian terrorists movements to spread their influence to 22 x indian districts?

Army does not want to lose the grip of power even if it costs Pakistan the cost that it is suffering and will be suffering in future.

If that be the case then every country that has territorial disputes or has some insurgency or terrorism related problems should also fall under this same category. Believe me, india would top this list, fair and square!

 

[Alla hoo]

Babaji, AQ was not created by ISI alone, agreed, but your Army played puppet to USA when all this was happening. Is this not a major major fault?

You (read Zia, read Army)let yourself be manipulated, Is this not your fault? You are still being manipulated.

Zia had once told US President that our army is your army when you pay right price.

Rest of your post is pure rant. Kashmir, Indian Army, blah blah,...come on. BTW are you retired or still in army?

 

[Xeric]

ya We saw ... 32,000 people died since last 8 years What a saved !!! Drone strikes everyday "WHAT A SAVED".

The decision has to be taken by the GoP. Blame them.

Haqqani giving out visas as if they were an invitation card to some Pakistani wedding again was GoP's decision, go talk to him, dont blame the army for the likes of R.Davis shyting every here and there inside Pakistan.

Superb Survival .... East Pakistan... Siachin .... and now Balochistan and NWFP .. full of burning... nice nice lovly survival!

It is clear that you have misunderstood the point i had tried to convey.

Anywayz, i was referring to the 'survival' like; liberating some portion of Kashmir, preventing indians from having tea at Lahore Gym, disallowing india from engulfing us when it became a nuclear power way before us, deterring india thrice from undertaking a misadventure - once in 2001/02, second in 2009/10,third when it undertook Brasstacks, preventing india from taking all of the Glacier and overlooking Gilgit and Skardu, deterring india from executing its Limited War bee ess even when we are neck deep in the shyt that's happening in FATA when quite a large chunk of our forces are committed there.

First i never defend these rat mouse like politicians nor i defend in my any post .... i am just talking about Army and the performance of Army thats it.... come and see situation in Pakistan how these Senior officers and thr children act on the street and in every place ... you will better know is that Army or "Badmash".

Then i must say you havent seen the children of politicians, police walas and civil servants acting on streets. i mean what to talk of them, any dick head who has a nokia mobile ph up his arse thinks himself something like a superman. BTW, i have never ever even revealed my identity to even a farmy anda (the traffic pulce), instead i have always shown them the documents, answered their lame and stupid questions like, kidhar say arhay hain, kidhar ko jarahay hain, kyn ja rahay hain (as if i am standing at migration at an airport). Only when they have compeled me or have indicated that they require some 'chai pani', would i squeeze their balls.

lol @ your statement! 4 times marshal law... and you are still thinking that there is really politicians (real civil political background) and Rule of Law exsist wow! amazing your post make me Laugh!

You know what, it's a fact of life that no one would respect you unless you would demand respect. Musey has been thanking your posts so i will take his example. People respect Musey because he demands respect that is to say, through his logics and reasoning. Also as he has his moniker in Blue, he automatically receives that respect. Now i had used this 'respect' term loosely, this can now be interchanged with the word 'authority' - no one would accept your authority unless you would make him do it. Do you listen to that warden on that road just because he wears a uniform? No? You listen to him coz you know that he is capable of kicking your butt whenever he wants. Now dont get me wrong, my points doesnt imply that only those people receive respect and authority who veileds a danda only. Members other than Musey are also respected here and people also listen to police chaps because they have the element of ethics. But then how many of such people are actually here in this country? 50% at the most? The remaining does it because of the reasons mentioned above. So now this brings me to my actual point; if the politicians really want that they should be respected and their authority is felt, well, then they have to raise themselves to that level where no one should insult them. They should make the military listen them, they should make those who dictates them eat dust. Why dont the Army behaves in indian the same way? Because the day when a indian General try to become a smarta$$, he is eaten raw by the politicians and media even before he realizes what he has done!!

So, first grow those balls and then ask.

Hope this thing understand by our Army first "PRECEPTION IS EVERYTHING" so the perception is now against Army in this whole nation....

The perception of some e-warriors doesnt count. Still, ASRC's are jammed packed with volunteers. 17000 appeared in the ISSB in 2007, in 2008 the numbers were 30000, the numbers were 45000 in 2010.

BTW, if you think just because the Army followed the decision of GoP (it was GoP's to include N.Sharif and the PPP who had to decide R. Davis case and it's GoP's call to ask the PAF and the Army to shoot down any drone that enters our air space), it has lost credibility, then i must say that you are highly mistaken.

Good Answer

Please please, hold the applause..please!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

No it did not creat the 'evil' (alone).

Was Al Qaeda created by ISI?

Was TNSM the brain child of the Army?

Was BRA/BLA created by the military?

And who created the talibans? The ISI? No, it was created on the behest of CIA and the West, yes surely we did assist them. But at the time when this was happening you and the entire world was praising us, but when the yanks left the Afghans half-cocked (which was the main reason for the taliban taking full cntrol of Afg), none raised any eyebrows. So now when they are back reminding us all how fcuked up the US' end game Afghanistan was, we all feel very easy to scapegoat Pakistan's Army for it!


Is it why the IA keeps Kashmir boiling and allow indian terrorists movements to spread their influence to 22 x indian districts?


If that be the case then every country that has territorial disputes or has some insurgency or terrorism related problems should also fall under this same category. Believe me, india would top this list, fair and square!

well said. I find it amusing how Indians are preaching and criticising Pakistan army when they top the table of defence related acquisitions and are using the insurgencies as one excuse. shedding tears for the common man of Pakistan and the heavy expenditure over Pakistan army on the face of the current MMRCA deal that is quoted to be from 8 to 12 Billion USD

Yea first try telling the Indian government to spend on health and education and don’t rely on Briton to do it for you

 

[Xeric]

This is for Stealth, VCheng and party.

Ok, before i have to waste my time repeating the same old arguments i must post some of my (suitably amended) replies elsewhere on this forum so that i can avoid duplication of effort.... these will answer your concerns to a certain extent, still if you guys any 'newer' concerns (other than the ones that have been killed to death many a times), feel free to put them forth.

Anywaz, i'll be ending my debate by slightly touching upon the part where **** mentioned that 'what exactly the Army has won for Pakistan'. i'll answer this by asking **** to consult Clausewitz's "War as an Instrument of Policy" thingy (though i am sure with the kind of extended reading he has, he already know it's crux). Wars/conflicts are/should be undertaken for furtherance of ones (foreign) policy. And policies are/should be made by politicians, not generals, but in our unfortunate case there was either no policy (line) at the first place when ever we went to war or alternatively the policy was made by the generals themselves, or even worst, the policies were made by politicians whose ceiling was either 2 x (sabot) dumbas in the breakfast or those who merely accumulated their wealth abroad (this is just the reference point, please feel free to go back or forward from this point to include almost every politician that we have had since our inception).

So the thing is, again Army alone is not to take the blame because, bhai ji, is hamaam mai hum saray he nangay hain...!!

Anywaz, you took me wrong, as usual, by considering that i am portraying the Army as an impeccant entity per se. If you have gone through my posts, not only on this thread but also the outside, you might be knowing that i have never disagreed with the fact that radicalization of our society was indeed done at the behest of a General. Not that the entire Army is to be blamed for it, but yes the strategy did conform with military's interests and so the free hand to beard bearers. But then i have asked these two questions from many, both on this forum and outside in the real world;

1) Was it really Gen Zia/ISI/Army/Pakistan that is solely responsible for the formation of extremists cum radicalization among our thinking cum intoleration that had prevailed in our society since then or are there someone/thing else who should also share the blame? May be we should also blame ourselves and the US (the CIA in particular) in tandem, may be we should also feel equally bad for the US for abandoning Pakistan and the Afghans in particular, in such an abrupt and awkward way after they got what they had aimed at? Blaming the military alone, in my personal opinion is not only quite selfish but also speaks high of our hypocrisy.

2) We all go about thumping our chest when it comes to scapegoat the Army for taking all the blame when it decided to support the yanks in Afghanistan against the Reds. i dont hear much praise for this particular decision by the Army, but then they same champions have failed to answer this simple question; if Gen Zia didnt have sided with the US back then, what possible alternatives did we have instead? Todate, i havent got any reasonable answer, may be you can help me out here.

Anywaz, coming back to the topic. So in my previous post i never had barred the Army from anything except that i was talking more of our military's post Musharraf stance and behavior. What i tried to argue (which i obviously failed in) was that since Gen Kiyani took our Army's reigns things have changed manifold. The same 'ole rageeni that it's the army who wield the power has been muted to some extent. The major reason because of which the military took this blame was it's (the ISI's) influence over the elections. The last elections proved it that there was ZERO persuasion from the agency's side. When was the last time you saw the COAS visiting the PM or President to brief him? This one does. The docileness was to an extent that it prompted sir Fatman to comment on a group foto where Gen Kiyani's submission to the politicians was epic. Every major decision that this country has taken since Gen Kiyani took over has been an excellent, if not text book type example of coordination between the military and civilian bureaucracy and the civilian leadership. Now if people here consider that Gen Petraeus's meetings with the Chief imply that it is Kiyani who is the puppet master then by the same definition N. Sharif also wields a similar power in this country as Cameron Munter also contacted Sharif for the release of R. Davis.

 

[Alla hoo]

Anywayz, i was referring to the 'survival' like; liberating some portion of Kashmir, preventing indians from having tea at Lahore Gym, disallowing india from engulfing us when it became a nuclear power way before us, deterring india thrice from undertaking a misadventure - once in 2001/02, second in 2009/10,third when it undertook Brasstacks, preventing india from taking all of the Glacier and overlooking Gilgit and Skardu, deterring india from executing its Limited War bee ess even when we are neck deep in the shyt that's happening in FATA when quite a large chunk of our forces are committed there.
!

Typical. This is precisely how the Army and their sympathisers would want common pakistanis to believe so that their (common) peoples loyalties could be guaranteed towards the army.

Just tell me which one out of four wars did India initiate? It did not. Who has a nuclear no-first use policy? Its India.

WHen civilian leadership of both countries were talking peace and friendship bus to lahore, who was doing sh!t in kargil without informing their Civilian leadership?

You people cannot just fool common people by showing them the danda(stick) of India and make them forget what all misdeeds and backdoor solutions you cater to your manipulative masters.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, you must be aware more than me about the fact that there may be other reasons for Qureshi's exit than his "principled position" on this issue. Even I have read of this despite my limited following on these issues. You don't really expect ministers to resign on principles, do you?

Of course, he tried to use it to try and become a martyr.

He did not resign, he was fired by Zardari, and the PPP never contradicted his claims on what his stated position was on the Davis issue. In fact, Fauzia Wahab, a senior PPP leader considered very close to Zardari, came out with the exact position Qureshi said Zardari was pushing, after Qureshi's press conference.

Also, the PA has long taken the space of foreign policy (especially security issues and relations with USA and China etc.) from the politicians. They are just convenient scapegoats to direct the public anger.

Power without responsibility at its best.

The PA's influence on foreign policy is irrelevant in the current situation given that the politicians wanted the same thing.

That is the point I am making here, that the PPP and PML-N did not want a confrontation with the US and lose out on US aid and economic support, and therefore wanted Davis released. Whether the Army supported that position reluctantly or not is irrelevant since the politicians were in favor. The Army did not force them to follow that position, and therefore the politicians, as the elected representatives, have full responsibility.

The argument that 'the Army has influence over foreign policy and is therefore primarily responsible' is only applicable IF the Army forced the politicians to release Davis, and that is clearly not the case.

Now, you must have surely read of the long wrangling between CIA and ISI on this issue and how a personal meeting between Kayani and US army officials in a secluded villa in Oman brought about the final deal.

We can blame the politicians all we want. In this case the decision had nothing to do with them.

I have read a lot of speculation on the 'wrangling between the ISI and CIA', I have not read anything verifiable on it, or on what was agreed to, nor have we seen any signs of changes in policy on the part of the US/CIA, if anything was agreed to. Until we do, this 'agreement' is all speculation.

As of the meeting in Oman, unless you have some clear facts establishing what was discussed, your claims about what was talked about are speculation. In addition to the meeting in Oman there were high level visits by Kerry and Grossman (Hollbrooke replacement) who met with all senior political leadership in Pakistan, in fact it was after Kerry's visit to Pakistan and meetings with the political leadership (including Nawaz Sharif) that talk of a blood money settlement spiked in the US media.

So one could equally point at the meetings of Kerry and Grossman with the political leadership as the 'establishment of the deal'. In any case, unless someone can establish that the elected representatives were forced by the Army to release Davis, the primary responsibility lies with those elected representatives - the PPP and PML-N.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just tell me which one out of four wars did India initiate?

1. India fomented rebellion, terrorism and invaded and occupied Junagadh (which had formally acceded to Pakistan) before the war in Kashmir.
2. India fomented terrorism and rebellion in East Pakistan and therefore was responsible for the 1971 war.

Who has a nuclear no-first use policy? Its India.

Who has a massive conventional military buildup? India. Pakistan will respond to that conventional military superiority in any way it sees fit. I fail to see what the problem is.

WHen civilian leadership of both countries were talking peace and friendship bus to lahore, who was doing sh!t in kargil without informing their Civilian leadership?

And Pakistan could point to India treachery in Siachen, which was a violation of the Simla Accords.

You people cannot just fool common people by showing them the danda(stick) of India and make them forget what all misdeeds and backdoor solutions you cater to your manipulative masters.

How about you people stop distorting history and pretending that India has not initiated unprovoked hostilities against Pakistan, and is equally to blame for the tensions between the two nations.

Now get back to the topic please instead of starting another India vs Pakistan.

 

[Mujeeb47]

Yaro Pakistan me "Gairat Brigade" phir action me aa gai hai. Well done gairat Brigade

 

[Rain]

If the people of Pakistan are so disgusted with the current state of affairs, why do they not start grass roots political movements as alternatives in the next elections?

Why simply argue that the Army is trying to 'pick puppets'? The last elections were free and fair. The Army did not distribute seats to the PPP and PML-N, the people voted them in. The people can choose to vote them out.

Why did Pir Pagara 'fail'? Why are Pakistanis not willing to give other politicians and parties a chance to govern if they are so disgusted by the actions of the PPP and PML-N? Whose fault is it that there is no viable third option to the PPP and PML-N?[

The question is Who will allow the rise of genuine political force! a genuine political force with strong roots in masses, leadership with character, integrity, dedication to do some thing for ppl of pakistan and pakistan is the need of the hour. But unfortunately such political force will never be allowed to grow up because of vested interests of Army, Feudals and Mullahs. Pakistani masses as to realise it that they were, they are being used as cosmatic dressing, no one is willing to share with them THE POWER!

 

[Alla hoo]

^^^ Sir, I appreciate your last sentence. Lets not make this India pakistan. I have a reply ready although. Maybe some other time.

I WOULD APPRECIATE IF ANYONE COULD REPLY TO LAST LINE OF POST 32.

 

[Vinod2070]

well said. I find it amusing how Indians are preaching and criticising Pakistan army when they top the table of defence related acquisitions and are using the insurgencies as one excuse. shedding tears for the common man of Pakistan and the heavy expenditure over Pakistan army on the face of the current MMRCA deal that is quoted to be from 8 to 12 Billion USD

Yea first try telling the Indian government to spend on health and education and don’t rely on Briton to do it for you

Are you really comparing the situation of India and Pakistan and the influence of military in national psyche?