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SPIEGEL Interview with Pervez Musharraf

This is such a shame for a country that it's former president openly declares that "we support terrorism”. the country in one hand support terrorism & in other hand yelling for peaceful resolution through UN...pathetic :frown:
by saying so Mr Musharraf declared proxy war against india.if freedom of a state is behind their logic to support terrorism, why should not india support Baluchistan & other region?

now the world will learn the true face of pakistan.

This is shame for Indian orange media to twist facts.


proxy war against India?? NO dear we have not yet started that.

When we did you will see what exactly that means
 
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This is shame for Indian orange media to twist facts.


proxy war against India?? NO dear we have not yet started that.

When we did you will see what exactly that means


We have been hearing ifs and buts for so long. We will do this and that--Nothing constructive happened..

The fact is that if you were so manly man, your country (at least) would have a surplus electricity (basic necessity) let alone proxy war against India.
Feed your people first!!

The fact is if you were strong enough, the U.S. would not have dared to threaten or pressurize you. It is easy to build bridges in the air...
 
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The groups had a lot of other 'allies' by then and were functioning independently. It is very logical if you were to correlate all the events of those times. Like I mentioned Sufi Mohammed, a Mujahideen, came back to Pakistan in 1993/4 and wanted to implement Sharia in Pakistan. He was able to initiate a deadly movement in Malakand where the army had to kill over a thousand people to end the uprising. The groups were equipped with the know how to function well independently or in conjunction with other groups.


Could you please refer to what you are stating here. I would like to see some documents or articles that state Pakistan supported the militancy in Punjab.


Can you give me some source..where it says that ISI ceased it active support for to Kashmiri militants after 1991.


"To save herself from being anathematized as a discarded varmint Benazir Bhutto needed to refute the claim that she wore a white “chador” per Sindhi custom to take revenge on Pakistanis whom she blames for the death of her father. Is this a “Fifth column” amongst us? She has been impugned for her furtive and malevolent machinations which led to the hapless emaciation and denouement of the Khalistan movement.

It is a well known fact in Pakistan that a list of Khalistani fighters was handed over to the Indian’s by Benazir Bhutto confidante Ahtizaz Ahsan. Benaizr accused then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi of breaking his word by not reciprocating with the withdrawal of the army from the Siachen Glacier.

According to the Indian press, Rajiv Gandhi could not deliver on his promise to Benazir Bhutto. That broke the confidence between India and Paksstan, and she never trusted India again. This was a major blunder of Benazir Bhutto. The Army and the ISI never forgave her for this mistake. She had minimal access to the nuclear facilities."

Book Reivew: "Goodbye Shehzadi"–BB snuffed out Khalistan! | Pakistan Patriot
 
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The fact is that your country has no vision. One day dictatorship another day democracy. One day your dictator announces free and fair elections and the other day your political leadership bankrupts the nation. one day your army blames politicians for corruption and the other day vice versa. One day the U.S. is your ally and the other day GO AMRIKA GO.


Your leadership, military and political, feels no shame to bankrupt your nation.

Ohh the U.S. back stabbed Musharaf as Muse suggested earlier but the same guy lives in the U.S.

This is your leadership.
 
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Exactly, that was the whole point of my original post. Pakistan needs to do better than the status quo which, as you say, works for India while the Kashmiris keep dying. This is one of the reasons I have my doubts about Musharraf -- he wanted to make the status quo permanent.
This pseudo emotional angle of Kashmiris dying doesnt carry any weight any more. Leaving the current issue aside, most of the world actually blames the militants and insurgents for the deaths in Kashmir.

And Pakistan will not be a good flag bearer of this issue in the world body because of its silence on the sizable collateral damage that Pakistani civilians suffered in its own WOT.



Economic clout will bring allies and allies will bring pressure upon India. As India opens up to the world, it becomes more vulnerable to international economic pressures.
Allies based on economic clout is a zero sum game. As long as the economic clout with a given country is not more than what is enjoyed by India, that country will not add to any pressure on India. And thats what I meant by making India economically insignificant.

The Gaza Palestinians are sustaining their struggle just fine. Without Pakistani help, the Kashmiris would still continue to resist India, albeit less violently.
But they are not right now. Hence the so called struggle is not indegenous. And thats why its not effective. Hence the point of my initial post. Because of Pakistan's association with this so called struggle, it has been relegated to a second class status of a cross border insurgency/terrorism.
 
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This is shame for Indian orange media to twist facts.


proxy war against India?? NO dear we have not yet started that.

When we did you will see what exactly that means

what shame for indian media????
forget about the indian media,the fact is now your whole country will be in shame !!! lets wait & see.

same thing could be said for india,when we will start not you alone but the whole world will see,
 
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If and but? there is no if and but. rather India is already doing terrorism in Pakistan.

On the other hand We have NOT yet started any interference in India.

If India is..then I am sure you won't mind ..since you yourself accept that you don't mind supporting terrorism in Indian Kashmir.
 
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This is shame for Indian orange media to twist facts.


proxy war against India?? NO dear we have not yet started that.

When we did you will see what exactly that means

Your pain is understandable. However just for you.

BBC News - Musharraf admits Kashmir militants trained in Pakistan

Pakistan Trained Kashmir Militants: Musharraf | Pakistan News Time

One person executes Kargil without knowledge of PM. Then he and PM argue who is responsible. Then he takes over the country. Then he does support militancy in a foreign country. Then he does a u-turn. Then he is exiled and then he is telling us what everyone knows.

This is kind of unmatched chaos, anywahere in world. And we wonder why international community does not care what Pakistan says.
 
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You are saying we should sell out Kashmir for economic gain. Ain't gonna happen!

China and India are improving their relations.....yet no one is selling out anything to anybody, no??? Friendship b/w India and Pakistan is the only way Kashmir can be resolved. When tempers are up hawks from both sides will never allow a peaceful settlement....Do you think the recent spat of words b/w India and Pak's foreign minister is going to help in any way????

Exactly, that was the whole point of my original post. Pakistan needs to do better than the status quo which, as you say, works for India while the Kashmiris keep dying. This is one of the reasons I have my doubts about Musharraf -- he wanted to make the status quo permanent.

Well if you look more rationally the only possible solution is status quo....I am not saying Pakistan worry about water and other stuff is uncalled for yet if we have not done it in 62 years we will not do it otherwise as well....Having said it treaties are already there and more treaties can be put in.....

The formulae is good and is as per the ground realities. Highlights are

- GOI will not see it as a defeat/selling out because LOC will be converted to International border
- Pak will not see it as a defeat/selling out becuase even though LOC has been converted to international border yet it is invisible
- People of J&K on both sides will still find them alligned with the same regime they were/are alligned from past 62 years. Those who are not happy with their respective regime can easily use the invisible border.


So in essence this is the only possible solution where maximum people are happy....Forget about indian POV but even if you from Pakistan's pov you need to think about practical vs ideal. Let me try to paint the picture

- Indian budge on her own : India was weekest during 90's. We were facing bankruptcy, insurgency in Kashmir and Punjab was at its peak, negligible geo-political status, our long term friend USSR collapsed and one of our potential adversary China was enjoying the economic boom. Now if we did not budge on such a sensitive time viz-a-viz Kashmir there is a sleek possibility we will now especially when our economy is rocking and geo-political status has reached to unprecedented heights.

- International backing : The only way Pakistan can force India for a different solution then what is to GOI's liking is by earning backing from International community. Obviously this is not happening. Today's India will never allow it.

- Force : The last option is force. we all know results of Kargil and especially when both parties have nukes this possibility can easily be striked off....

So now if we want to look away from reality, nothing can be done, no???

Economic clout will bring allies and allies will bring pressure upon India. As India opens up to the world, it becomes more vulnerable to international economic pressures.
We have discussed this many times and you still seem to ignoring that discussion....Look indian economy is pretty much internal economy. I donot see that in near future(read decades) this is going to change. However even if we take your logic on face value(though not completely correct) just look at China. Their economy is very much export oriented yet they are not much worried about international economic pressure's..why??? Moreover please tell why will world community put economic pressure on india for the sake of Pakistan???

The Gaza Palestinians are sustaining their struggle just fine. Without Pakistani help, the Kashmiris would still continue to resist India, albeit less violently.
This we don't know...However one thing is for sure, less the violence more will be development and less the anger. However saying that just development alone will win hearts of Kashmiri's will be like living in fools paradise...but more autonomy complemented with development and no Pak interference will bring back Kashmir to normal for sure
 
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The Generals remarks have not come as a surprise , it was known all along.

It speaks poorly of a nation when its former head of state spills the beans . Acts by the state are not meant to be disclosed least of all by its former President. It’s a question of professional ethics.

Even after one quits a job an employee is not expected to disclose company secrets or at least admit them publically. There must be an Indian version of the Official Secrets Act in Pakistan too. He has been a Govt servant and cannot violate it.

Unless of course he is playing to the gallery and trying to project a macho image of himself as a prelude to his political career.

Ironically, he kept denying this back in 99 and the days the days thereafter.
 
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The Generals remarks have not come as a surprise , it was known all along.

It speaks poorly of a nation when its former head of state spills the beans . Acts by the state are not meant to be disclosed least of all by its former President. It’s a question of professional ethics.

Even after one quits a job an employee is not expected to disclose company secrets or at least admit them publically. There must be an Indian version of the Official Secrets Act in Pakistan too. He has been a Govt servant and cannot violate it.

Unless of course he is playing to the gallery and trying to project a macho image of himself as a prelude to his political career.

Ironically, he kept denying this back in 99 and the days the days thereafter.

The timing is obviously to embarrass the current leadership of Pakistan by embarrassing the country. He anyway has never been subtle.
 
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Kashmir is NOT part of India so no question of terrorism. its simple clean freedom movement.

Secondly Indian State Terrorism openly in East Pakistan entitles everyone to have the same in India itself.

But tell me who has that opinion of India except for you Pakistanis. And your opinion is irrelevant because you were at the receiving end, world community largely stands by India's war in 1971. Read the news papers at that time Journalist...
 
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Pakistan's foreign ministry continues to lie through their teeth. something they have done for over 20 years. Earning more credibility for Pakistan

Pak rubbishes Musharraf's statement on militants

This is like that Pakistan wants freedom for Kashmiris' lie, used for scoring online points, whereas the real position of Pakistan govt does not have the 'freedom' option on the table at all.
 
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^^

Yeah, you're right... Kashmiris don't want freedom at all...
 
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