SPIEGEL Interview with Pervez Musharraf

[T-Faz]

Israel is a state that has been created in Palestine thru brutality and military might... The European Jews migrated there with the help of the British... Last I checked we are not allies with Israel... We do not recognize that illegal state at all... Are you proposing that we should recognize Israel now?

That is an unrelated matter but in my opinion, we would have more chance of creating a Palestinian state if we were to recognize Israel and enter direct negotiations with them to initiate a peace process.

America claims to be our ally... The map was one thing, even their media outlets like CNN have promoted nobodies like Syed Jamal ud Din's book called "Divide Pakistan to eliminate terrorism"... With friends like the US do we really need enemies? They have gone down to the level of killing our own soldiers now... that is if we disregard the civilian casualties that their drone attacks have caused... which we owe to Musharaf again!!!

If we had the audacity to deal with our own problems, US would not be undertaking the task for us. Last time I checked, FATA was and has never been under the control of GoP. We have to take control of the area so that we may sort the problems that arise from the region. Another thing that you might want to know is that Drone strikes are done with consent of GoP and a very high number of militants have been killed in these strikes. Just take the example of all those foreign terrorists in training camps that were killed recently. Its better to get them early then let them hurt us or others in yet another cowardly terrorist attack.

No one is saying we should punish people for thought crimes... The maps published in the armed forces journal however are a proposal that are a clear threat to our country...

A threat is only real if you allow the opportunity for it to be. We have to strengthen ourselves and our nation to such an extent that such thoughts would not even cross the minds of others. Its better to correct yourself then punish others for their thoughts or words.

Bhai Faz... nothing has changed in Pakistan under Musharaf... such achievements are nothing compared to what we are capable of achieving in reality... The only point where I would agree with you perhaps is that Musharaf may have been a little better than that other Zia ul Haq creation called Nawaz Sharif and the wife of our current President (you know what he is known as)...

We are capable of achieving a lot but it you have start with small steps before you could take a leap. We were in the right direction under Musharraf for certain things. He however had his share of problems and certain ones relating to economy are the corrupt individuals who stole our nations money as usual and non implementation of higher tax collection.

This is no excuse to sell them for a cheap price... How long are we going to keep hearing this same excuse... Can we not make machines now? Who makes such machines? Do those people who have this technology have access to some aliens? With all due respect this is very shallow... When Pakistan can build JF17 and Al Khalid, why cant we get some help from another country which does have this technology to extract Gold and make the best use of it? Selling off the nation's assets as if they are ones personal property... a dignified nation would hang the culprits upon finding out about this scandal...

You yourself acknowledge that Musharaf forgave the debts of his friends in the military... Why would you then support such a person?

In terms of developing the machinery for extraction and refinery, we have to invest money that we do not have. We are in a situation where money has to be spend on defense owing to our enmities. Similarly, the technical know how of utilizing our natural resources is limited in our country, we need to learn a lot before we could actually utilise them. I am not for selling such important reserves for small prices, however we do need international assistance and we can only take what is offered.

Bro tell me this... Did our Master Muhammad not have problems when he implemented the rules of Islam... He even had Munafiqeen around him at one stage... Our Caliphs had problems that are unimaginable even today with two of the Rashideen, our very dear Usman and Ali RA assassinated!!! Were there not thefts, murders, social problems facing Muslims then? It was not a utopia for God's sake... Here in the west this very corruption goes to the top levels of governments... In the UK the MPs have used public money to buy things from Rubber Ducks to Book Shelves... Corruption in a society should not be given as a reason not to implement an economic solution to those problems... The west has progressed because they are true to their system i.e Capitalism/Secularism and Democracy... This is impossible for a highly conservative society such as ours!!!

The difference between that time period you are referring to and us today is Hadhrat Mohammed (SAW). We do not have such a man who can implement these laws in their originality and be fair and just with matters that require to be dealt with.

Though corruption exists in all societies, it is not as magnified as it in Pakistan, the root cause is a rotten mindset in society. Though the problems look simple from a far, being in centre of it makes you realize of how complex it is to solve.

Let me ask you then... If you disagree with the land reform and wealth distribution model that I touched on here... what would you propose instead?

I do not oppose them, I would welcome such laws but there is slim chance of it occurring.

Moreover you paint a totally negative and bleak picture of the situation... Bro you and I are very much part of Pakistani society... I have seen my parents all my life living an honest living doing the best for us... There is still good in us... infact if it had nt been for a corrupt system a lot of our people would automatically leave their wrong doings... As our economy improves, we will certainly find the best coming out in our people... Even here in the west we are noticing a small but visible increase in social problems and crime as their economies have taken a dip...

There are always honest and hardworking people in society but they do not have a voice in our society, perhaps we are too mired in our own problems and do not have the platform. Perhaps we do not conform to the ways of our country but are indifferent, there are many reasons for this. All that we can do is improve our standards gradually to see the nation thrive as it was intended to be.

Faz bhai... We are as sick and tired of these religious leaders as we are of these feudal lords... I can understand though why you would show pessimism over this... I would rightly assume that you are linked to Pakistan's military considering you are a moderator here... I have this to say to you... Firstly... we dont need religious leaders... we need people who understand the model of economics/politics that the Islamic ideology offers to the world... and Secondly... such people are certainly around you... Go find one and feel free to have a verbal fist fight with him... that would be more enlightening than using this forum...

Its all well and good what you say but where exactly are these people you speak of. Why do they not enlighten us with their correct interpretations. This forum is certainly good in gathering the opinions and mindset of our nation. Over here many can follow debates that could lead to a better outlook for us as a nation.

Bhai Faz I just had this idea... I m looking at this forum and wondering if you could setup a small Islamic section for discussions of Islamic topics... put some ground rules like no sectarian issues but only objective solution oriented discussion be allowed... Its upto you if you think such a section can be moderated... Considering this is a Pakistani forum such topics will arise from time to time??

It is a defense forum and religion is something that we do not concentrate much on over here. The reason is simple, religious debates can get very messy and as I said, limited knowledge of religion is more harmful then no knowledge. This would be true for many of us including myself. Every one has their own points of view regarding religion and its best to keep them private on this forum.

InshaAllah the first step towards solving problems is thinking... The very fact that we as a nation are discussing about these issues makes me very pleased and hopeful...

That is great thing about this, finally we are speaking and very rationally so. InshaAllah we will be better off in the future because of our thoughts and actions today.

Is there truth in it then? Profit making by the Army that spreads quite deep instead of just a few Generals as you asserted in a previous post?

Army works as an institution in Pakistan and they have economic interests within our country, this is certainly not right. Eventually you will see this coming to an end. Another thing I want to mention is that, majority of our soldiers are good people, its only a few that further their own interests or fill their pockets.

 

[khuramonline]

it is true ... "we" really trained young ppl to go and fight with Indians in Kashmir.

Musharraf did not say that "Pakistan govt" did it.

Neither he said that govt kept eyes closed.

Fact is that govt kept eyes closed. But it will not be ever officially admitted ... even by Musharraf.

Our policy is based on lies ... better to say "true lies!".

We admit only that we extend only moral and ethical support... but we do go forward. Perhaps we do want to help Kashmiries. But actually we spoil indigineousness of their struggle.

Musharraf is right in the end!

 

[Developereo]

You are thinking this all wrong Developereo...Pakistan can never become that important economically compared to India that countries will put economic pressure on India to favor Pakistan. The demographics just do not favor Pakistan on that account.

I do not expect Pakistan to reach economic parity with India, but we can do a lot better than we are doing right now. Size does not dictate economic potential. Japan and Germany are much smaller and are not exactly bursting with natural resources, yet they are doing just fine (discounting Japan's current problems which I believe they can overcome).

India is a democracy..the images will carry inside the country and when they cannot blame Pakistan the Indian government starts flapping about in panic.

It simply will not happen. Ever.
Whether Pakistan is actively involved or not, India(ns) will always link any trouble in Kashmir with Pakistan.

For both India and Pakistan, Kashmir is 'unfinished business'. It is a continuing, emotionally charged, reminder of the bloody independence which claimed a million lives.

You want to make 'economic gains' for Kashmir as well as sacrifice 'economic gains' for Kashmir? How do you propose to make these mutually exclusive acts possible.

The statements are contradictory only if you assume that Pakistan's economic development depends on India. It doesn't.

Kashmir

Pakistan's economic woes are not due to Kashmir-induced Islamization, but plain old corruption.

And i never said that India-China relationship has anything to do with Pakistan...

But it does. Both sides know it and India pretends it doesn't care.

What i am trying to convey is that we(read india and china) are not selling out on our border dispute by improving relationship....Apart from minor bickerings here and there both the countires give enough respect to each other sensitivites and ignore things which can easily be consider very provocative...This is not sell out, right???

The relationship between India and China is a dance of regional diplomacy in the context of global politics; it's got nothing to do with shared interests or long term compatibility.

No offence but if you closely monitor events in the last decade there are many instances where you find GOI going out of the way for friendship..this is certainly not dada-giri.

GOI has been plunging the dagger of covert operations and diplomatic assault at Pakistan, all with a smile on its face.

Kashmiris who are not happy with either GOI or GOP can use these soft borders on their will(a sense of Azaadi) and with more autonomy there is no reason to feel like refugee

Except that nobody in Pakistani side is clamoring to go to the other side. It is only on the Indian side that people are complaining. You are effectively telling them that if they are not happy-- and they are not -- then their only choice is to pack up and leave. This bit about 'autonomy' is meaningless sugar coating.

India wins and the Kashmiris lose.

If you are not happy with this one, do you have any suggestions???

I don't. Even if Kashmir becomes an independent country, it will be like Afghanistan: a proxy battle ground for India and Pakistan.

See, i said decades because a domestic driven economy cannot suddenly become a export oriented market...

Depends if the desire for faster economic growth and parity with China opens the floodgates.

The whole pakistan society is suffering [...] yet people of Pakistan are supporting Kashmir cause, no??? I hope i have answered your query...if not then please let me know....

The claim, by India, is that the Pakistani public is being dragged along into the Kashmir conflict by the evil and single-minded Pakistani security establishment. Glad to see you acknowledge that is not the case.

As for the counter argument, I will concede that people will put up with a lot for national pride and national interests. Perhaps the Indian businessman will continue to support the Kashmir fight regardless.

India will still be a preferred destination for west. Yes they might not like to allineate Pak but will not allineate India either, in short status quo will not change and Kashmir will still be considered as internal issue...so now my friends what's the gain???

As I see it, any conflict is fought on four fronts: propaganda, diplomatic, economic and military. Pakistan has been focussing on the military angle exclusively and it's time to pay attention to the other fronts.

I agree that Pakistan is unlikely to surpass India economically, but a stronger economy will also pay dividends on the diplomatic and propaganda fronts, not to mention military.

I wouldn't even begin to know how to leverage economic power -- there are people who are far more qualified and trained for these matters. All I know is that having money gives you more options than needing money.

Explained above...Economically strong Pakistan is good for Pakistani's and i wish you best of luck. However it will not have any leverage on Kashmir issue...period.

Kashmir is not the reason to strive for a strong economy; but it will put Pakistan in a better bargaining position -- whether bilaterally or in terms of international visibility. Moreover, it will make sure the Kashmiris don't feel they are compromising their kids' economic future for the sake of an ideological struggle.

 

[Ras]

I do not expect Pakistan to reach economic parity with India, but we can do a lot better than we are doing right now. Size does not dictate economic potential. Japan and Germany are much smaller and are not exactly bursting with natural resources, yet they are doing just fine (discounting Japan's current problems which I believe they can overcome).

Everyone can do better....it is bit of a straw man argument to compare Japan and Germany with any Asian(excluding Japan) country. Even though they got destroyed in WW2..their societies had decades of heavy industrial history behind them. No country in Asia(including China) has that. Size does dictate economic potential especially when countries are starting from the same base all things considered equal.

It simply will not happen. Ever.
Whether Pakistan is actively involved or not, India(ns) will always link any trouble in Kashmir with Pakistan.

For both India and Pakistan, Kashmir is 'unfinished business'. It is a continuing, emotionally charged, reminder of the bloody independence which claimed a million lives.

I respectfully disagree...I get my news from online sources but I sensed panic in the Indian establishment when the current uprising was at the peak.They tried to blame Pakistan but the Indian people themselves laughed at them. People are not stupid..when 100 civilians are killed with no military people dead then it is no militancy,it is a suppression.

As I said before the Indian govt if given a preference between the full fledged militant insurgency like in the 90's and a student revolt as seen last month would choose the militancy any day. The reasons are not difficult to understand..the SU was beaten in Afghanistan because of 2 things,they ran out of money and people. India is lucky because the Kashmir valley is a much smaller battlefield so they have to spend less money on it..the second as an overpopulated third world country,India has no shortage of manpower to throw into the battlefield.

 

[PeacefulIndian]

it is true ... "we" really trained young ppl to go and fight with Indians in Kashmir.

Musharraf did not say that "Pakistan govt" did it.

Neither he said that govt kept eyes closed.

Fact is that govt kept eyes closed. But it will not be ever officially admitted ... even by Musharraf.

Our policy is based on lies ... better to say "true lies!".

We admit only that we extend only moral and ethical support... but we do go forward. Perhaps we do want to help Kashmiries. But actually we spoil indigineousness of their struggle.

Musharraf is right in the end!

In plain simple English, whatever Musharraf said translates to following -
Musharraf: "Yes we did train those militants against India. what other option we were left with? We were not getting enough, if any, support from 'indigenous & impulsive freedom fighters' in Kashmir. The west and other countries had turned a blind eye to Kashmir rightfully, since there was no oppression to start with. But we were so desperate to see Kashmir as a part of Pakistan, we had to resort to terrorism. And thats OK you know, nations have a right to do whatever they want under the name of national interests. And that includes terrorism as well. And I am still appalled at the fact that Pakistan is considered a rogue state. India is rogue, not us, even though it were us who resorted to terrorism."

What disgrace! What neighbors we have been made to live with!

 

[deckingraj]

But it does. Both sides know it and India pretends it doesn't care.

But how???...How can a bilateral relation has any bearings on third party....Look at Russia-India and Russia-China relationship for that matter...As long as Cihna don't poke their nose in our internal matters(read issues which they don't have any direct relation) i don't see any role of Pak in our billateral relations...In just a little more than 5 years time period our relations have improved many folds..however i don't see any direct bearing with Pak..do you have any instance to suggest otherwise???

The relationship between India and China is a dance of regional diplomacy in the context of global politics; it's got nothing to do with shared interests or long term compatibility.

You should have seen how both got united at copehagan, so your assertion about no common interest is wrong, no???..Mind it this is just one example....Both of these giants are going to be future challenge for western powers so if you look a bit more pragmatically you might see lot of common interest and compatability....

GOI has been plunging the dagger of covert operations and diplomatic assault at Pakistan, all with a smile on its face.

Care to share one single instance where the other side has not done the same??? However if you look at last 10 years lot of unprecendented moves have been initiated by New delhi...So lets look at the issue holistically....

Except that nobody in Pakistani side is clamoring to go to the other side. It is only on the Indian side that people are complaining. You are effectively telling them that if they are not happy-- and they are not -- then their only choice is to pack up and leave. This bit about 'autonomy' is meaningless sugar coating. India wins and the Kashmiris lose.

Well i don't want to derail the thread so wont comment but Azad Kashmir definitely is not as Azad as made out to be...As far as your comment about Kashmir loose and India wins then i have already explained the benefits of proposed solution...Honestly autonomy and invisible border is the best possible solution that people of Kashmir can get....

I don't. Even if Kashmir becomes an independent country, it will be like Afghanistan: a proxy battle ground for India and Pakistan.

Then what are discussing??? Basically what you are saying that Kashmiri's will keep dying no matter what...

Depends if the desire for faster economic growth and parity with China opens the floodgates.

This is not realistic....India is a huge country and our purchasing power is 4 in the world...Overnight such a hige economy cannot be transformed...B/W i have said that even if that happens howsoever unlikely it is still the way China grew even during recession India will grow...

The claim, by India, is that the Pakistani public is being dragged along into the Kashmir conflict by the evil and single-minded Pakistani security establishment. Glad to see you acknowledge that is not the case.

Indian claim is that ordinary people of Pakistan want peace with India, it is the establishment who don't want it to happen....Ordinary people of Pakistan want Kashmir to resolve just like ordinary people of India however not by violence especially when fabricated terrorism is one of the mean used.....don't you think so???

As for the counter argument, I will concede that people will put up with a lot for national pride and national interests. Perhaps the Indian businessman will continue to support the Kashmir fight regardless.

Yup...

As I see it, any conflict is fought on four fronts: propaganda, diplomatic, economic and military. Pakistan has been focussing on the military angle exclusively and it's time to pay attention to the other fronts.

See that's the issue...You must have read musharraf recent revelations...One of the thing was lack of international support......You have tried you best to internationalize the issue, so saying Pak has not tried is incorrect.....In short for propaganda, diplomacy or for that matter any mean you need to have some takers for it....You have no choice but to get support of International community which i am afraid is hard to come by especially when Pak is getting famous(in-famous) for all the wrong reasons...

I agree that Pakistan is unlikely to surpass India economically, but a stronger economy will also pay dividends on the diplomatic and propaganda fronts, not to mention military.

As said a strong Pakistan is good for the region, however this will have no leverage on Kashmir...Military conflict is out of scope...Also no matter how much we try we cannot surpass China, same is true for Pak....GOI is happy with status quo, in short you have to surpass us militarily and try something like Kargil and force us out of Kashmir...which my friend is unlikely to happen...

I wouldn't even begin to know how to leverage economic power -- there are people who are far more qualified and trained for these matters. All I know is that having money gives you more options than needing money.

You are right about having money vs asking for it, so yes strong economy will be good for Pak but that's about it...Remember your enemy is a giant and is doing great....

Kashmir is not the reason to strive for a strong economy; but it will put Pakistan in a better bargaining position -- whether bilaterally or in terms of international visibility. Moreover, it will make sure the Kashmiris don't feel they are compromising their kids' economic future for the sake of an ideological struggle.

Though i don't agree yet good luck...

 

[RamGorur]

The statements are contradictory only if you assume that Pakistan's economic development depends on India. It doesn't.

The statements are contradictory not because of any assumption - which I didn't make - but because it displays contradictory intention.
Your 2nd statement indicates that if there is a conflict between 'economic gains' and Kashmir 'cause', you intend to go for the later thus belying your first statement where you seem to prioritize 'economic gains'.

Pakistan's economic woes are not due to Kashmir-induced Islamization, but plain old corruption.

Never made that claim.

 

[RamGorur]

..when 100 civilians are killed with no military people dead then it is no militancy,it is a suppression.

A minor nitpick. Military people were not responsible for those deaths. They were central police force and police of the State of J&K . And there were several injuries of these law enforcement personnel, and perhaps one death as well.

 

[Developereo]

You should have seen how both got united at copehagan, so your assertion about no common interest is wrong, no???..Mind it this is just one example....

One-off instances do not alter the long term reality that these two will be jostling for regional dominance. Neither can even dream of becoming a major global player if they can't even assure regional supremacy. This is where Pakistan comes into the India-China equation, sooner or later.

Both of these giants are going to be future challenge for western powers so if you look a bit more pragmatically you might see lot of common interest and compatability....

China and India see each other as competitors, not partners. There is no 'Asian brotherhood' against the evil West. In fact the West perceives only China as a potential superpower; it does not take India seriously as a threat. That is why it is willing to work with India to build it up (to an extent) against China. Do you think the Western powers are idiots that they would cut their own throat by building up a potential rival?

Ordinary people of Pakistan want Kashmir to resolve just like ordinary people of India however not by violence especially when fabricated terrorism is one of the mean used.....don't you think so???

Terrorism is also practised by Indian security forces against Kashmiri civilians. If the issue were to be resolved peacefully through a plebiscite, then that would be the best option for all peoples concerned, Indian, Pakistani and Kashmiri.

You have tried you best to internationalize the issue, so saying Pak has not tried is incorrect.....In short for propaganda, diplomacy or for that matter any mean you need to have some takers for it....You have no choice but to get support of International community which i am afraid is hard to come by especially when Pak is getting famous(in-famous) for all the wrong reasons...

That's the point: Pakistani propaganda and diplomacy has been abysmal to date.

GOI is happy with status quo, in short you have to surpass us militarily and try something like Kargil and force us out of Kashmir...which my friend is unlikely to happen...

I agree that a military solution is unlikely, which is my whole reason to focus on the other options. You are confident that they, too, are bound to fail but I would rather try them in earnest, backed by a strong economy, before conceding defeat.

Your 2nd statement indicates that if there is a conflict between 'economic gains' and Kashmir 'cause', you intend to go for the later thus belying your first statement where you seem to prioritize 'economic gains'.

That statement was in response to the assertion that friendship with India is worth more than Kashmir, presumably in reference to economic gain. I replied that we don't need India (i.e. abandon Kashmir) to achieve economic strength.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...interview-pervez-musharraf-4.html#post1182661

 

[RamGorur]

That statement was in response to the assertion that friendship with India is worth more than Kashmir, presumably in reference to economic gain. I replied that we don't need India (i.e. abandon Kashmir) to achieve economic strength.

Don't start shifting posts please. Your reply was not that you 'don't need India to achieve economic strength', but when it comes to relationship with India you would rather stick with Kashmir even at the cost of possible economic gain. The contradiction still stands.

Another side note. The balance of trade between India and Pakistan is heavily in favour of India.

 

[Developereo]

Don't start shifting posts please. Your reply was not that you 'don't need India to achieve economic strength', but when it comes to relationship with India you would rather stick with Kashmir even at the cost of possible economic gain. The contradiction still stands.

I even provided a link to the post where I made the comment and spelled out what that comment was in response to. If you still insist on your interpretation, there is nothing I can do about it.

Let me spell it out one more time.

1. I said, "Pakistan must achieve economic strength."
2. Illusiv said, "Friendship with India is worth more than Kashmir."
3. I said, "We are not budging on Kashmir", i.e. we can achieve economic strength just fine without India's 'friendship'.

Another side note. The balance of trade between India and Pakistan is heavily in favour of India.

All the more reason to focus on trade with countries other than India.

 

[deckingraj]

China and India see each other as competitors, not partners. There is no 'Asian brotherhood' against the evil West. In fact the West perceives only China as a potential superpower; it does not take India seriously as a threat. That is why it is willing to work with India to build it up (to an extent) against China. Do you think the Western powers are idiots that they would cut their own throat by building up a potential rival?

When did i say west percieve India as a threat??? Do you know the amount of trade b/w China and US??? Yet they are rivals because they have conflict of interests....Is there any conflict of interest b/w US and India??? or for that matter b/w west and India??? If the answer is no then i don't see any reason for them to consider us as rival....Now coming to west pitching India against China then this is b/w India and China to see how they are going to handle the situation....US-India relationships improved considerable from clinton visit way back in late 90's, bush era took it to unprecedented level...B/W all this time(a little more than a decade) relations with China has improved mani-folds...Do you see all this happen by chance????

Look whatever you want to call relations b/w India and China but both very well know that a conflict b/w them is a big no-no...Both the countries have their shares of problems and so far they have done a good job...no???

Terrorism is also practised by Indian security forces against Kashmiri civilians. If the issue were to be resolved peacefully through a plebiscite, then that would be the best option for all peoples concerned, Indian, Pakistani and Kashmiri.

Don't spin words...There is no taker for your argument about terrorism...I can easily say that PA is using terrorism in FATA, no??? Plebiscite is not possible even if India agrees to it...Ground situations have changed so much that it is not a viable option any more...however what is viable is not considered at all, pity....

That's the point: Pakistani propaganda and diplomacy has been abysmal to date.

Exactly, but they have been abysmal not because they have not tried....In short you have tried this as well however it did not work..In today's world it will not work anyways...this is correct assesment of ground reality...

I agree that a military solution is unlikely, which is my whole reason to focus on the other options. You are confident that they, too, are bound to fail but I would rather try them in earnest, backed by a strong economy, before conceding defeat.

It seems you are convinced that you have not tried it...However from 1971 to 1999(even before) you have done whatever you could have at diplomatic level, propaganda level and what not, when failed you tried the military opportunity and failed once again....There is a reason Musharraf who was the architect of Kargil proposed the 4 point solution which is acceptable....why do you think he proposed that???....Look you have done whatever to internationalize the issue but international community is not interested in stepping in...Militarily you cannot do anything....What i am not getting is why you don't want to read the writing on the wall???

 

[Developereo]

When did i say west percieve India as a threat??? Do you know the amount of trade b/w China and US??? Yet they are rivals because they have conflict of interests....Is there any conflict of interest b/w US and India??? or for that matter b/w west and India??? If the answer is no then i don't see any reason for them to consider us as rival....

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: I agree with you completely that the West does not perceive India as a threat, which is why they are willing to help India militarily, diplomatically, etc, etc. Certainly India's economy is a factor but China has a bigger economy and the West isn't rushing to form military deals with China; quite the opposite.

Now coming to west pitching India against China then this is b/w India and China to see how they are going to handle the situation....

It's not so much that the West is 'using' India against China, but the other way round. India and the West find common ground in containing China. Any case, this is getting off topic...

It seems you are convinced that you have not tried it

Pakistani diplomatic and propaganda apparatus has always been abysmal; our reputation around the world, including the Muslim world, is proof enough.

 

[deckingraj]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: I agree with you completely that the West does not perceive India as a threat, which is why they are willing to help India militarily, diplomatically, etc, etc. Certainly India's economy is a factor but China has a bigger economy and the West isn't rushing to form military deals with China; quite the opposite.

Exactly and the reason is conflict of interests....They have none with us so we are moving forward with no hurdles....They are sensitive about China because there have conflict of interest...The more west and china will open up the better it would be for world...

It's not so much that the West is 'using' India against China, but the other way round. India and the West find common ground in containing China. Any case, this is getting off topic...

Of i agree with you....When i say that India-China have improved their relations then i am right, however i would be fool to deny that they are potential adversaries...In short they will move in both the directions...Strategically they will try to contain each other and let's have no doubt about it...For China the way is stronger Pak and for west the way is stronger India...Pak and India in turn gets much needed help to ensure their adversary thinks twice before doing the misadventure....However the stark difference between India-China and India-Pak is that relations b/w two giants is improving which is a good sign however between us is detiorating...

So all i am trying to say is that India-China are doing exact opposite to what many vested interest will like them to do....They are potential adversaries and both are trying to increase the level of trust by improving relations....

Pakistani diplomatic and propaganda apparatus has always been abysmal; our reputation around the world, including the Muslim world, is proof enough.

No offence but you need some might to do that....The world is opportunist and that is a fact...Please tell me what is the bargain chip that you/your diplomats have to do anything about Kashmir issue??? So no matter how smart they are they cannot do much....

9/11 happened and world views about terrorism changed...GOI is accusing Pak for abetting terrorist since early 90's and no one gave two hoots about it...That doesn't mean that our diplomats were bad then and now are amazingly smart...

Mind it i am not denying that Pak needs to do well in diplomacy but the obvious fact is that apart from your geo-graphican benefit at the moment you have nothing to offer....During heights of cold-war you reaped lot of benefits due to this...Once USSR lost AF war west packed their bags and left why?? because there was nothing else apart from mess...Now they are back again because they need you...once AF war is over they will not have any reasons to stay there....So my friend crux of the matter is

- Like it or not struggle for Kashmir has brought in more bad for Pak than good
- At the moment there is no way in the world you can get your hands on Kashmir, be it politically, diplomatically, militarily...
- Only pragmatic way is to have a resolution which is acceptable to GOI and gives you maximum possible leverage...This would be smart thinking and after trying out every possible trick in the book Musharraf seems to have realized this...
- Only other way would be to hope Pak will be a super-duper economy and might be able to out manoeuvre a huge market like India and then perhaps international community will back you....However my friend this will take atleast couple of decades and by then GOI stature would be too huge, don't you think so????

 

[Developereo]

relations b/w two giants is improving

I think it is a case of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer", but you will surely disagree. Only time will tell and, certainly, on occasion, the two will find common ground (climate change, etc.).

9/11 happened and world views about terrorism changed...GOI is accusing Pak for abetting terrorist since early 90's and no one gave two hoots about it...That doesn't mean that our diplomats were bad then and now are amazingly smart...

No, Pakistan has always been in the bad books with the West all throughout its history. Our 'friendship' has always been one of convenience without any depth and never went beyond the White House and the Pentagon. The reason has to do with the powerful lobbies in the West and, if you have followed any of my other threads, you know exactly what I am talking about.

apart from your geo-graphican benefit at the moment you have nothing to offer

But geography is the main reason the West is interested in India in the first place. If they were after a rich and upcoming consumer market, they would have gone to China instead. The reason they like India is because it serves as a thorn in both China and Pakistan's side, especially since Japan is distancing itself from the West and focusing more on Asia.

Only other way would be to hope Pak will be a super-duper economy and might be able to out manoeuvre a huge market like India and then perhaps international community will back you....However my friend this will take atleast couple of decades and by then GOI stature would be too huge, don't you think so????

Never mind outmanoevering; Pakistan needs to have a very strong economy just to stay relevant in our relationship. The way things are going right now, the India-Pakistan relationship will become more like the India-Bangladesh relationship or the India-Sri Lanka relationship. We may be able to maintain military competitiveness, but in all other aspects we risk becoming irrelevant to India. That would spell disaster even in a bilateral solution to Kashmir.