Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue

[bolo]

You are idiot. You don't know Vietnamese proverb:

"Con cóc là cậu ông trời.
Ai mà đánh nó thì trời đánh cho".

In English:

"The frog is a uncle of God,
if you hurt him, God shall punish you."

"God ain't real, get over it." --quote from logical people

 

[Grand Historian]

Why ?

It is stating in our textual history book was written by our ancestor. We don't have right to deny it.

The only leg you're standing on is Vietnamese texts written thousands of years after the events.

I can recognize untrustworthy sources when I see them especially if they are ingrained in myth and legends.


I already asked you these questions and ever single time you ignore them.

1.List a ancient Chinese text that mentions Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.

2.Name some minority or Southern Han Chinese legends about Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung king.

3.Show archaeological evidence that Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung Kings exists.

4.Show Sinologists,Western academics and reserach papers that agree with your claims.

do you have proof Vietnamese are part of Baiyue?

Other than the Baipu the non Sinicized natives of Southern China were Baiyue,Luoyue and Ouyue who the Vietnamese which the kingdom of AuLac was supposedly a fusion of, are both considered part of the Baiyue.

 

[EastSea]

Edward Schafer agreed that the animals were frogs, "for the drum embodied a frog spirit---that is a spirit of water and rain---and its voice was the booming rumble of the bullfrog." He retold a story of the Tang period recorded in a Chinese source to show that the drum could even take the form of a living frog. According to the story, a frog pursued by a person leaped into a hole, which turned out to be the grave of a Man (barbarian) chieftain containing a bronze drum with a rich green patina, covered with batrachian figures. The bronze drum was believed to be the reincarnation of the frog.[49] Vietnamese scholars initially agreed that the animals were frogs in the 1970s,[50] but later interpreted them as toads because "a widely known popular saying in Vietnam calls the toad 'the uncle of the heavenly god' and maintains that rain will inevitably fall when the toad raises his head and croaks.

Edward Schafer was wrong.

Could you know this is toad or frog ?

look at the tradition painting here in Vietnam.

and what related to totem and worship is the story of Gold Toad.

Thiềm Thừ –
蟾蜍
Cóc Tài lộc
Theo truyền thuyết của người Hoa, thì Thiềm Thừ vốn là yêu tinh, được tiên ông Lưu Hải thu phục, theo Tiên ông Lưu Hải để tu hành nên không làm hại nhân gian như trước, mà ngược lại dùng phép thuật của mình đi khắp nhân gian để nhả tiền giúp đỡ mọi người, để thể hiện sự phục thiện, sự cải tà quy chính với tiên ông Lưu Hải. Vì vậy Thiềm Thừ được người Hoa trân trọng và trở thành một trong những con vật linh thiêng trong phong thủy về tài lộc và yên lành.

Read more. Thiềm thừ tài lộc đồng nguyên chất Đồ phong thủy, cóc, cóc tài lộc, cóc ngậm tiền, cóc vàng, cóc đồng, cóc phong thủy, thiềm thừ, thiền thừ, vật phẩm phong thủy bằng đồng. | Thủ công mỹ nghệ


don't forget that I stated in my early posts that Dong Son bronze drums belong to South East Asian people, including Minorities are living to day in Southern China.

 

[EastSea]

The only leg you're standing on is Vietnamese texts written thousands of years after the events.

I can recognize untrustworthy sources when I see them especially if they are ingrained in myth and legends.


I already asked you these questions and ever single time you ignore them.

1.List a ancient Chinese text that mentions Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.

2.Name some minority or Southern Han Chinese legends about Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung king.

3.Show archaeological evidence that Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung Kings exists.

4.Show Sinologists,Western academics and reserach papers that agree with your claims.


Other than the Baipu the non Sinicized natives of Southern China were Baiyue,Luoyue and Ouyue who the Vietnamese which the kingdom of AuLac was supposedly a fusion of, are both considered part of the Baiyue.

It is boring to discuss with you, who are WuYue and MinYue man in native, but you deny your true identity belong to Bai Yue. Very sad.

 

[Grand Historian]

It is boring to discuss with you, who are WuYue and MinYue man in native, but you deny your true identity belong to Bai Yue. Very sad.

What's very sad is your intellectual dishonesty,as usual you attempt to shift the subject to avoid any questions.

Repeating the same lie over and over again doesn't make it true.

You are nothing more than a fraud with an ax to grind,trying to desperately distort the origins of Southern Han Chinese so you can claim that you ruled us.

I feel sorry for you,since ancient Vietnam was not a juggernaut you attempt to inflate its historical significance and downplay Chinese influence.

I already showed you more than enough proof that Southern Han Chinese are not solely descendants of the Baiyue but you ignored them.

I'll just repeat what I stated before.

A cursory glance at the Shiji chapter 114 東越列傳.

於是天子曰東越狹多阻，閩越悍，數反覆，詔軍吏皆將其民徙處江淮閒。東越地遂虛。

The son of heaven said Eastern Yue is narrow and hard to traverse,furthermore Min Yue is full of fierce,disloyal people.

The emperor therefore issued a decree where the army would settle the native people to in the lands between the Chang Jiang and Huai rivers,thus Eastern Yue became a barren land.


So how could I be related to a group of people that have been forcibly settled out of Fujian?

I have posted portions of 中國人口史,which deals with the minority population.

During Western Han the total number of minorities only numbered 3 million(and no,they are not all Baiyue this includes ethnicties located in the NorthEast,North and Western regions of modern day China) as opposed to 60 million average for the Han Chinese.

During Eastern Han the Shanyue remnants of Minyue only numbered 200,000-300,000.(however this also includes the Han that lived amongst the Shanyue so the real number should be lower)

While the Man(蠻) population of Changsha,,Nanjun,Jiangxia etc had a population of several 100,000s.

I find it quite preposterous that a Vietnamese can decide whether Southern Han Chinese are Baiyue or Han,rather the modern day Southern Han Chinese identify with Han and practice Han customs.

 

[EastSea]

What's very sad is your intellectual dishonesty,as usual you attempt to shift the subject to avoid any questions.

Repeating the same lie over and over again doesn't make it true.

You are nothing more than a fraud with an ax to grind,trying to desperately distort the origins of Southern Han Chinese so you can claim that you ruled us.

I feel sorry for you,since ancient Vietnam was not a juggernaut you attempt to inflate its historical significance and downplay Chinese influence.

I already showed you more than enough proof that Southern Han Chinese are not solely descendants of the Baiyue but you ignored them.

I'll just repeat what I stated before.

A cursory glance at the Shiji chapter 114 東越列傳.

於是天子曰東越狹多阻，閩越悍，數反覆，詔軍吏皆將其民徙處江淮閒。東越地遂虛。

The son of heaven said Eastern Yue is narrow and hard to traverse,furthermore Min Yue is full of fierce,disloyal people.

The emperor therefore issued a decree where the army would settle the native people to in the lands between the Chang Jiang and Huai rivers,thus Eastern Yue became a barren land.


So how could I be related to a group of people that have been forcibly settled out of Fujian?

I have posted portions of 中國人口史,which deals with the minority population.

During Western Han the total number of minorities only numbered 3 million(and no,they are not all Baiyue this includes ethnicties located in the NorthEast,North and Western regions of modern day China) as opposed to 60 million average for the Han Chinese.

During Eastern Han the Shanyue remnants of Minyue only numbered 200,000-300,000.(however this also includes the Han that lived amongst the Shanyue so the real number should be lower)

While the Man(蠻) population of Changsha,,Nanjun,Jiangxia etc had a population of several 100,000s.

I find it quite preposterous that a Vietnamese can decide whether Southern Han Chinese are Baiyue or Han,rather the modern day Southern Han Chinese identify with Han and practice Han customs.

Pls to read the article I posted here under, and think more about the differences of concept nationality and ethnicity of Chinese people.


Migration and Ethnicity in Chinese History: Hakkas, Pengmin, and Their Neighbors.

By Leong Sow-Theng. Edited by Tim Wright. Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 1997. Pp. xix + 234. $45 (cloth).

Ethnic identity is forged not just by psychology, but by material forces. China's powerfully unified ethnic identity is famous: Han Chinese descendants of the people of the Yellow River Plain, unified by the Emperor Qin Shi over two thousand years ago. Leong Sow-Theng's beautifully detailed posthumous volume Migration and Ethnicity in Chinese History examines how migration shaped the identity of the Hakka people. His perspective reveals strongly contested and divergent local ethnic identities, languages, and cultures, each modeled in contact and conflict with other local peoples. The Hakkas belong to China's ethnic Han Chinese majority, 94% of the population. (The fifty-six officially recognized national minorities, including ethnic Koreans, Tibetans, Mongols, and Miao, are 6%.) The Hakkas, just 3% of China's population, are the smallest of the seven major Han Chinese subgroups, each with its own local culture and dialect, as different as English from German. Most northerners belong to the native Mandarin-speaking 70%. The other groups are the Cantonese, the Wu speakers (from around Shanghai), the Min (from Fujian and Taiwan), the Xiang (Hunan), and the Gan (Jiangxi Province). The Hakkas, the only subgroup without their own province, live among the mountaintops of Guangdong, Fujian, Taiwan, Jiangxi, and Sichuan. Yet Hakkas gained so much political power that they include disproportionate numbers of the scholarly, military, and political elites, as well as Deng Xiaoping. In 1984 Hakkas formed 50% of China's most powerful political entity, the Standing Committee of the Politburo.

Until very recently China's ideology of national unity, and horror of civil war, prevented public discussion of the ethnic Han subgroups. Hakkas had long been poor and stigmatized, late migrants to south China. Over the last three centuries millions died in wars between the Hakkas and their Cantonese and Fujianese neighbors. Leong's carefully honed analysis examines migration and contact in the construction of Hakka identity. The Hakkas' own creation legend lauds them as an ancient people, upholders of pure northern Chinese language and tradition. Hakkas, the legend goes, are descendants of Shandong and Henan natives who patriotically migrated south during the Mongol invasions 600 years ago. Hakkas pride themselves on scholarship, thrift, and hard work, and on their independent women who rejected foot-binding and worked in the fields alongside men. They also pride themselves on patriotism, counting as their own China's first president, Sun Yat-sen (though this is disputed), as well as Taiwan president Lee Teng-hui and Singapore strongman Lee Kwan Yew.

Yet non-Hakkas, especially Cantonese and Fujian Min, have long denigrated the Hakkas as hillbilly "shack-people" (the pengmin of Leong's title). The very word Hakka is a Cantonese slur meaning "guest people"--that is, people who are supposed to go home. Poorer than southerners, later migrants forced to settle the worst mountain land, the Hakkas are stereotyped as stingy, clannish, disruptive outsiders, who work their women like animals, rather than sequestering them at home, according to the now defunct mainstream ideal. All southern Chinese have intermarried extensively with indigenous people. But the most contentious charge holds that the Hakkas are "not even Han Chinese," but rather a non-Han minority, the She, an ethnic Miao subgroup. Hakkas objected to particularly "barbarous" or "aborigine" labels well into the twentieth century.

Leong, himself of Hakka ancestry, elucidates how the Hakkas gradually distinguished themselves from other "shack-people," forging a self-consciously separate language and identity only in the past 300 years. Public pride emerges only in the twentieth century. Leong calmly demonstrates how the factual record disputes crucial features of the Hakka creation myth. Far from being ancient northern scholars and nobility, patriotic preservers of pure northern speech, the record shows the Hakka ancestors as very recent arrivals, very poor, uneducated, itinerant workers. Hakkas adopted old southern Chinese speech, which separated into a self-recognized Hakka dialect only within the last few...

Preview of first page

 

[yue10]

The only leg you're standing on is Vietnamese texts written thousands of years after the events.

I can recognize untrustworthy sources when I see them especially if they are ingrained in myth and legends.


I already asked you these questions and ever single time you ignore them.

1.List a ancient Chinese text that mentions Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung kings.

2.Name some minority or Southern Han Chinese legends about Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung king.

3.Show archaeological evidence that Xich Quy,Van Lang or the Hung Kings exists.

4.Show Sinologists,Western academics and reserach papers that agree with your claims.


Other than the Baipu the non Sinicized natives of Southern China were Baiyue,Luoyue and Ouyue who the Vietnamese which the kingdom of AuLac was supposedly a fusion of, are both considered part of the Baiyue.

the Annams are Mon-Khmer root got nothing to do with Baiyue, there is member here called Rechoice , I remembered speak with him about this Xi Ou and Luo Yue, you can asked him about it, oh wait he will tell you he don't care what historians spammed lol
Xi Ou is An Duong Vuong tribes, this admit by Annam professors said he is Tay people

here for Luo Yue
Perhaps nothing reveals this better than the fact that today the Zhuang in China also argue that they are descended from the ancient Lạc Việt, or Luoyue in Chinese.43 Obviously the Zhuang and the Vietnamese cannot both be right.

Edward Schafer was wrong.

Could you know this is toad or frog ?

look at the tradition painting here in Vietnam.

and what related to totem and worship is the story of Gold Toad.

Thiềm Thừ –
蟾蜍
Cóc Tài lộc
Theo truyền thuyết của người Hoa, thì Thiềm Thừ vốn là yêu tinh, được tiên ông Lưu Hải thu phục, theo Tiên ông Lưu Hải để tu hành nên không làm hại nhân gian như trước, mà ngược lại dùng phép thuật của mình đi khắp nhân gian để nhả tiền giúp đỡ mọi người, để thể hiện sự phục thiện, sự cải tà quy chính với tiên ông Lưu Hải. Vì vậy Thiềm Thừ được người Hoa trân trọng và trở thành một trong những con vật linh thiêng trong phong thủy về tài lộc và yên lành.

Read more. Thiềm thừ tài lộc đồng nguyên chất Đồ phong thủy, cóc, cóc tài lộc, cóc ngậm tiền, cóc vàng, cóc đồng, cóc phong thủy, thiềm thừ, thiền thừ, vật phẩm phong thủy bằng đồng. | Thủ công mỹ nghệ


don't forget that I stated in my early posts that Dong Son bronze drums belong to South East Asian people, including Minorities are living to day in Southern China.

now you just bring up nonsense lied, from that's article it said legends to do with Chinese, the bronze drum here got nothing to do with them, worship of frog is Zhuang cultures, what that toad article got to do with anything

ask 100 people and they will all tell you it look like frog, even the taobabe girl post her troll say it
This is a closeup of one of the frogs that were fused to the top of the Chợ Bờ drum. This type of drum was developed later than previous bronze drums, roughly between the 4th century B.C. and 1stcentury A.D.

Since frogs emerge during rain, and rain usually leads to good harvests, this drum was most probably used to predict times of planting as well as to request opportunistic rainfall.

When the drums are beaten during festivals and the various holidays, the sound is said to resemble the rumbling sounds of thunder. With the frogs present, it is a plea for ask for rainfall, which brings with it, a bountiful harvest

I asked a simple question and you could prove bronze drum belong to you, tell me just one folk story relate to bronze drum and your Annams, I know you got folk story for banh chung and Hung King so give a folk story for drum and it can easily be settled

 

[Grand Historian]

Pls to read the article I posted here under, and think more about the differences of concept nationality and ethnicity of Chinese people.


Migration and Ethnicity in Chinese History: Hakkas, Pengmin, and Their Neighbors.

By Leong Sow-Theng. Edited by Tim Wright. Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 1997. Pp. xix + 234. $45 (cloth).

Ethnic identity is forged not just by psychology, but by material forces. China's powerfully unified ethnic identity is famous: Han Chinese descendants of the people of the Yellow River Plain, unified by the Emperor Qin Shi over two thousand years ago. Leong Sow-Theng's beautifully detailed posthumous volume Migration and Ethnicity in Chinese History examines how migration shaped the identity of the Hakka people. His perspective reveals strongly contested and divergent local ethnic identities, languages, and cultures, each modeled in contact and conflict with other local peoples. The Hakkas belong to China's ethnic Han Chinese majority, 94% of the population. (The fifty-six officially recognized national minorities, including ethnic Koreans, Tibetans, Mongols, and Miao, are 6%.) The Hakkas, just 3% of China's population, are the smallest of the seven major Han Chinese subgroups, each with its own local culture and dialect, as different as English from German. Most northerners belong to the native Mandarin-speaking 70%. The other groups are the Cantonese, the Wu speakers (from around Shanghai), the Min (from Fujian and Taiwan), the Xiang (Hunan), and the Gan (Jiangxi Province). The Hakkas, the only subgroup without their own province, live among the mountaintops of Guangdong, Fujian, Taiwan, Jiangxi, and Sichuan. Yet Hakkas gained so much political power that they include disproportionate numbers of the scholarly, military, and political elites, as well as Deng Xiaoping. In 1984 Hakkas formed 50% of China's most powerful political entity, the Standing Committee of the Politburo.

Until very recently China's ideology of national unity, and horror of civil war, prevented public discussion of the ethnic Han subgroups. Hakkas had long been poor and stigmatized, late migrants to south China. Over the last three centuries millions died in wars between the Hakkas and their Cantonese and Fujianese neighbors. Leong's carefully honed analysis examines migration and contact in the construction of Hakka identity. The Hakkas' own creation legend lauds them as an ancient people, upholders of pure northern Chinese language and tradition. Hakkas, the legend goes, are descendants of Shandong and Henan natives who patriotically migrated south during the Mongol invasions 600 years ago. Hakkas pride themselves on scholarship, thrift, and hard work, and on their independent women who rejected foot-binding and worked in the fields alongside men. They also pride themselves on patriotism, counting as their own China's first president, Sun Yat-sen (though this is disputed), as well as Taiwan president Lee Teng-hui and Singapore strongman Lee Kwan Yew.

Yet non-Hakkas, especially Cantonese and Fujian Min, have long denigrated the Hakkas as hillbilly "shack-people" (the pengmin of Leong's title). The very word Hakka is a Cantonese slur meaning "guest people"--that is, people who are supposed to go home. Poorer than southerners, later migrants forced to settle the worst mountain land, the Hakkas are stereotyped as stingy, clannish, disruptive outsiders, who work their women like animals, rather than sequestering them at home, according to the now defunct mainstream ideal. All southern Chinese have intermarried extensively with indigenous people. But the most contentious charge holds that the Hakkas are "not even Han Chinese," but rather a non-Han minority, the She, an ethnic Miao subgroup. Hakkas objected to particularly "barbarous" or "aborigine" labels well into the twentieth century.

Leong, himself of Hakka ancestry, elucidates how the Hakkas gradually distinguished themselves from other "shack-people," forging a self-consciously separate language and identity only in the past 300 years. Public pride emerges only in the twentieth century. Leong calmly demonstrates how the factual record disputes crucial features of the Hakka creation myth. Far from being ancient northern scholars and nobility, patriotic preservers of pure northern speech, the record shows the Hakka ancestors as very recent arrivals, very poor, uneducated, itinerant workers. Hakkas adopted old southern Chinese speech, which separated into a self-recognized Hakka dialect only within the last few...

Preview of first page

This is not relevant at all,the Hakka were stigmatized because they were later migrants.

Examples of inter ethnic conflict would be the Punti-Hakka wars,and the Quanzhou/Zhangzhou/Hakka wars in Taiwan.

You have to realize the She the Hakka mixed with are in reality a mix of minorities and Han bandits.

I'm still waiting for your sources for any of your previous claims.

 

[Wholegrain]

bad memory, remember of the Ming conquest of Vietnam in year 1407?

after Vietnam/Jiaozhi was forcibly returned to imperial China, all Viet related indigenous books, cultures and custom were banned or burnt. only Chinese stuffs were allowed.

The Ming dynasty liberated Vietnam from your Chinese ruled Ho dynasty. Without Ming, you would still be ruled by Chinese. When Yongle defeated the Ho, he said innocents should not be killed. The Ming invaded the Ho in support of the Tran, but the Ho had violently murdered the Tran.

Entry - Southeast Asia in the Ming Shi-lu

Yong-le: Year 5, Month 11, Day 3 (2 Dec 1407)
« Previous | Record 567 of 3279 | Next »
Imperial orders were sent to the Xin-cheng Marquis Zhang Fu, regional commander of Jiao-zhi. The orders read: "Jiao-zhi has now been pacified. If there are any who are rebellious, they mu st be eliminated. However, the officers and men mu st be warned not to let this extend to the innocent. The young males of the families of the evil rebels are not to be killed. However, all those who have pushed into the inner territory, regardless of whether they are slaves or ordinary people, if they take up arms in opposition, mu st be killed without leniency." Similar orders were sent to the Xi-ping Marquis Mu Sheng, deputy general of the left.

And most of the Vietnamese Kinh ancestors in the Red River Delta and Hanoi supported the Ming rule. The Kinh were "people of the capital".

It was Le Loi, who lived in the Vietnamese borderlands in Thanh Hoa where the "barbarian" Trai people (people of the camps) lived, where he started his rebellion. Le Loi himself was NOT a Kinh, but a Trai, and his army was made out of Trai people. The Kinh viewed Trai as barbarians.

Many of the Kinh Vietnamese in the Red River plain supported the Ming. Le Loi's anti Ming rebellion, was actually a Trai vs Kinh war, with the Kinh fighting for Ming against the Le dynasty Trai.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Strange Parallels: Southeast Asia in Global Context, C. 800 - 1830 - Victor B. Lieberman - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

The Trai people are ancestors of the Muong people. The Trai/Muong and Kinh were both of the same origin originally, speaking the same language. The difference between the Trai/Muong and Kinh, is that Kinh Vietnamese were influenced by Chinese culture, religion, and language, with Kinh adopting thousands of Chinese loanwords in their language, using Chu Nom characters, adopting Chinese Daoism, Confucianism, government, and alot of Chinese culture. The Trai/Muong refused to adopt it and maintained the original "barbarian" culture from before Chinese influenced Vietnam.

Muong people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Le Loi was a Trai/Muong, with a Trai/Muong army fighting against the Ming-Kinh Vietnamese forces. After Le Loi overthrew Ming rule, he and Le dynasty historians like Ngo Si Lien engaged in rewriting Vietnamese history to justify their own rule over Vietnam.

The Le dynasty then created the Kinh as a new ethnicity to seperate Vietnamese from minorities and other peoples. Before that, there was no seperate Kinh ethnic group, thats why the "Kinh" of the Red River region supported the Ming.

Goddess on the Rise: Pilgrimage and Popular Religion in Vietnam - Philip Taylor - Google Books

Human Rights in Asia: A Comparative Legal Study of Twelve Asian ... - Google Books

Historical Dictionary of the Peoples of the Southeast Asian Massif - Jean Michaud - Google Books

Postwar Vietnam: Dynamics of a Transforming Society - Google Books

The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia - James C. Scott - Google Books

Culture and Customs of Vietnam - Mark W. McLeod, Thi Dieu Nguyen - Google Books

Le dynasty historian Ngo Si Lien started inventing tales about Vietnamese being descended from Shennong and making stories up about the Hung Kings, to extend the Kinh's ethnic history back to antiquity. Before that, the Kinh didn't have a seperate distinct history.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Blood and Soil: A World History of Genocide and Extermination from Sparta to ... - Ben Kiernan - Google Books

 

[bolo]

So in summary:
Viets claim Southern Chinese are Baiyue with no proof other than myths written in Vietnamese.
In reality, the northern Chinese conquered the south tribes, killed the men, bang some sweet Baiyue chicks and sinocize them for generations making them Chinese and gave them customs, culture, etc. Now some of these buggers are trying revise history with no evidence.

 

[EastSea]

the Annams are Mon-Khmer root got nothing to do with Baiyue, there is member here called Rechoice , I remembered speak with him about this Xi Ou and Luo Yue, you can asked him about it, oh wait he will tell you he don't care what historians spammed lol
Xi Ou is An Duong Vuong tribes, this admit by Annam professors said he is Tay people

here for Luo Yue
Perhaps nothing reveals this better than the fact that today the Zhuang in China also argue that they are descended from the ancient Lạc Việt, or Luoyue in Chinese.43 Obviously the Zhuang and the Vietnamese cannot both be right.

now you just bring up nonsense lied, from that's article it said legends to do with Chinese, the bronze drum here got nothing to do with them, worship of frog is Zhuang cultures, what that toad article got to do with anything

ask 100 people and they will all tell you it look like frog, even the taobabe girl post her troll say it
This is a closeup of one of the frogs that were fused to the top of the Chợ Bờ drum. This type of drum was developed later than previous bronze drums, roughly between the 4th century B.C. and 1stcentury A.D.

Since frogs emerge during rain, and rain usually leads to good harvests, this drum was most probably used to predict times of planting as well as to request opportunistic rainfall.

When the drums are beaten during festivals and the various holidays, the sound is said to resemble the rumbling sounds of thunder. With the frogs present, it is a plea for ask for rainfall, which brings with it, a bountiful harvest

I asked a simple question and you could prove bronze drum belong to you, tell me just one folk story relate to bronze drum and your Annams, I know you got folk story for banh chung and Hung King so give a folk story for drum and it can easily be settled

.
study more kid.
Bronze Drum founded also in Cambodia.

Was toad/frog Totem worshiping in Khmer Empire in ancient time ?

 

[Grand Historian]

As usual EastSea has no sources to back up his false conjectures.

@Hu Songshan EastSea has provided nothing of value to this thread,instead he attempts to troll Chinese members by distorting their lineage and history.

 

[Wholegrain]

In consequence of expansion of Han, Shanghai people descendants of Wu Yue don't like Peking people, who speak Mandarin,
滿大人 language. It reported that Shanghai people don't like to share same bus with peking people when they on tourist tour in oversea.

Hakka ís came from Xiongnu, many rebelling has been made by them to rule back Han Chinese.

Yet Hakkas gained so much political power that they include disproportionate numbers of the scholarly, military, and political elites, as well as Deng Xiaoping. In 1984 Hakkas formed 50% of China's most powerful political entity, the Standing Committee of the Politburo.

Hakka are dont shared same blood lineage with native Yue people, native Cantonese is NanYue people. There was the civil war in Canton between Punti (Yue) people and Guest people (immigrants).

Wrong idiot, Hakka Y chromosome is genetically indistinguishable from southern Han Fujianese (Min speakers) and Teochew

ScholarBank@NUS: Terms of Use

Using subject-declared dialect group affiliations, it was confirmed that Fujianese, Teochew, & Hakka Zhang Y Chromosomes do not form genetically distinguishable groups (STR & SNP Exact Test p = 1.0000 +/- 0 & 0.0673 +/- 0.0059, respectively).

Again with your trash claiming that southern Han people like Cantonese and Min speakers are Baiyue. They are descended from Northern Han in their paternal line, they have Northern Han Y chromosomes while descending from baiyue in their maternal line. Their language is Sinitic and even closer to ancient Chinese than Mandarin, they culture is Chinese, they identify as Han. They are descended from northern Han on their father's side.

The real Baiyue people still exist, they are called Zhuang people, Miao (Hmong) people, Yao (Mien) People, Kam-Sui people, who all speak real Baiyue languages and preserve Baiyue Y chromosomes.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

Y chromosome data show that on average southern Chinese Han have a large paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han (82%). But mtDNA data show that southern Chinese Han have equal maternal contributions from northern Chinese Han (56%) and southern Chinese natives ( 44%) (Table 4A). The high paternal but lower maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han indicate strong sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han over the past two millennia (Wen et al. 2004). A more recent comparison of paternal and maternal data confirmed the sex-biased admixture in southern Chinese Han (Xue et al. 2008).

When we consider the admixture proportions of Fujian Han and Guangdong Han, the ancestors of Taiwanese Han, sex-biased admixture is even more evident than in the southern Chinese Han averages. Fujian Han are estimated to have a 100 percent paternal contribution from northern Chinese Han but only a 34 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. Guangdong Han are estimated to have 68 percent paternal but only 1 5 percent maternal contribution from northern Chinese Han. The maternal contributions from southern Chinese natives to Fujian and Guangdong Han were estimated as 66 percent and 85 percent (Table 3A), respectively. The extreme sex-biased contributions in Fujian Han and Guangdong Han indicate that the male ancestors of Taiwanese Han frequently intermarried with the female ancestors of southern Chinese natives before they migrated to Taiwan.

This sex-bias illustrates a significant feature of the Han expansion: many male migrants from northern China married women from local non-Han populations in the south. Therefore, the Han-grandfathers-Indigenous-grandmothers folk saying seems to apply generally to southern China over the past two millenia.

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

The spread of culture and language in human populations is explained by two alternative models: the demic diffusion model, which involves mass movement of people; and the cultural diffusion model, which refers to cultural impact between populations and involves limited genetic exchange between them. The mechanism of the peopling of Europe has long been debated, a key issue being whether the diffusion of agriculture and language from the Near East was concomitant with a large movement of farmers. Here we show, by systematically analysing Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Han populations, that the pattern of the southward expansion of Han culture is consistent with the demic diffusion model, and that males played a larger role than females in this expansion. The Han people, who all share the same culture and language, exceed 1.16 billion (2000 census), and are by far the largest ethnic group in the world. The expansion process of Han culture is thus of great interest to researchers in many fields.

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.

大中华文明圈各地域人们的血统构成，例：大和民族九州岛父系—汉族血统40%... – 【人人分享-人人网】

According to a DNA Chinese study for all Han ethnic group. The average Cantonese paternal Y-DNA is 60% Han and 40% Baiyue while maternal mtDNA is 20% Han and 80% Baiyue. Of the Han paternal Y-DNA ancestry 10% is estimated to have came from during the Qin dynasty and 50% came from the Tang/Song dynasty 《人口研究》 - 中国各地DNA数据 [34]

The majority of Northern and Southern Han Y chromosomes are the same, subclades of Y haplogroup O3. Native haplogroups like O1 are in the minority.

Southern dialects like Cantonese are even closer to ancient Middle Chinese than Mandarin

Food in China: A Cultural and Historical Inquiry - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books

Early Child Cantonese: Facts and Implications - Shek Tse, Hui Li - Google Books

Cantonese is ancient as well as modern

As spoken today, Cantonese features certain phonological characteristics that are quite close to some pronunciations in Middle Chinese. In fact, some classic Chinese literary pieces, especially poetry, sound close to the original when read in Cantonese because Cantonese phonology is similar in many aspects to the pronunciations used in Middle Chinese.

In contrast, the pronunciation of Mandarin is very different from Middle Chinese; thus, poetry in Middle Chinese can sound quite discordant when read in Mandarin. Using Mandarin phonology in poetry and other rhyme-based writings originally composed in Middle Chinese may sometimes make the lines of the poem sound quite incoherent as Mandarin differs so markedly from Middle Chinese phonology.

The Chinese Language: Its History and Current Usage - Google Books

Cantonese is probably the closest living dialect to the Middle Chinese of the Tang dynasty (618-907 CE), and the Cantonese often refer to themselves as 唐人 tong yan, "people of the Tang."

Non Han people would refer to Han people from the central plains (Zhongyuan) as "people of the Tang". The Cantonese would use this same term to refer to themselves.

Chinese History: A Manual - Endymion Porter Wilkinson - Google Books

China - Michael Cannings - Google Books

mandarin: ni hao, wo shi guangdong ren 你好、我是廣東人
cantonese: nei ho, ngoh si gwong dung yan. 你好、我是廣東人
Minnan: lí hó, góa sī Kńg-tang lâng 你好、我是廣東人
hakka: ngi ho, ngai si Kóng tûng ngìn 你好、我是廣東人

vietnamese:Xin chào, Tôi là Người Quảng Đông. 嗔嘲, 晬罗

廣東

Japanese: Konnichiwa, watashi ha kanton jin desu こんにちは, 私は広東人です

Korean: Annyeong, jeonun gwangdung saram imnida 安寧, 저는 廣東 사람 입니다

Cantonese, Min, Wu, Xiang, Gan, Hakka, and Mandarin are all Sinitic/Chinese dialects and all descended from Old Chinese.

 

[Wholegrain]

During the Han dynasty, the Han population, concentrated in northern China, outnumbered the southern Baiyue by tens of millions. The Baiyue lands were sparsely populated yet fertile so it easy for tens of millions of northern Han to settle in southern China.

All of these Baiyue people are still around today

Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bouyei people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dong people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Miao people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yao people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baiyue languages are still spoken today by these minorities

You can stop lie and spread such idiot trash of white men.

Vietnamese look at Chinese at big boy but bad boy, to be careful when handling with them, they should bite us suddenly if they can. Ming Dynasty, Man Qing Dynasty did it, and Mao/Deng, did it recently 1974, 1979.

 

[Wholegrain]

During the Han dynasty, the Han population, concentrated in northern China, outnumbered the southern Baiyue by tens of millions. The Baiyue lands were sparsely populated yet fertile so it easy for tens of millions of northern Han to settle in southern China.

All of these Baiyue people are still around today

Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bouyei people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dong people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Miao people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yao people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baiyue languages are still spoken today by these minorities

You can stop lie and spread such idiot trash of white men.

Vietnamese look at Chinese at big boy but bad boy, to be careful when handling with them, they should bite us suddenly if they can. Ming Dynasty, Man Qing Dynasty did it, and Mao/Deng, did it recently 1974, 1979.