South Korea compares Japan's 'rising sun' flag to swastika as Olympic row deepens

[gambit]

Hello Gambit, in the long history of warfare, yes, that was just the result. Lots of countries get into wars. Japan and US had a war. The US won. At the raw geopolitical level, it can be understood. Life goes on. And in the following decades, Japan has done much better than it could have done if the overhead US was in character like the SU.

But all the arguments about "justification" on a moral basis is all BS.

To 'justify' is to -- at least an attempt -- make an action and/or argument, often both, acceptable at some level, from purely technical to moral to philosophical. To demand an unconditional surrender is not a calculus to be taken lightly by all sides in a war, least of all by the side that demanded it, then by the side that received said demand. That calculus inevitably involves the moral dimension.

What is the nature of the war? Why was it started? How was it started? All wars were started with some moral injections into their arguments. Hitler reasoned that a war was needed to protect Germans and expand living territories. Saddam Hussein portrayed Iraq as victim of Kuwaiti oil theft via lateral drilling from Kuwait into Iraq. The US wanted Noriega for selling illegal drugs to the US. ECOWAS invaded Gambia to restore order and preserve some measures of democracy. ECOWAS has several invasions in its history. In this short list of modern wars, every decision prior to execution involved some moral arguments as to why the wars were needed.

Even petty theft usually, though not always, involved some moral justification for the theft. If you displays your wealth, you 'deserves' the theft on you. The incel culture used morality for its misogyny.

So if morality -- whatever arguments there maybe -- was necessary to start a war, it is not BS to at least try to end a war using a moral framework.

 

[gambit]

As for unit 731... I'm sure none of the documentaries that you have watched mentioned anything in the following.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

The victims of JPN's actions in WW II do not care about what the US did. If the intent is to classify what country should go into what box regarding whatever immoral and/or inhumane actions said country done in its history, then we can visit that debate elsewhere.

I don't think you understand the holocaust and genocide in general... Japan carried out none of it. There were massacres and fair to call them war crimes. But the atom bombs were war crimes to be the same definition. But no genocide.

The a-bombs can be argued as war crimes on quite specious reasons.

In a war, humans and non-humans are considered assets to conduct a war. In history, there has been times when we cruelly targeted humans because we believe on A, B, C, and so on, rationales. A 'genocidal' war is a war that demands SPECIFICALLY humans as priority targets and systematic in execution. Destruction of domiciles and other items are considered tangential needs to weaken the humans in order to make killing them easier. What JPN did in WW II were cruel but not genocidal. What the Nazis did in WW II to the Jews and non-desirables were both genocidal and cruel. So for categorization, JPN is lower than Nazi Germany in scale of heinousness.

WW II was largely an industrial war between the US vs JPN and Nazi Germany. Industrial meaning the primary targets were non-human assets, and cities were targeted not because of the humans but because they were truly industrial centers. It is unfortunate and even cruel that humans were killed in the bombing campaigns but humans bereft of industries cannot conduct a war. It is in the same sense that the police tries to disarm a suspect instead of killing the suspect. Either way, the human is no longer a threat, but it is better to disarm.

The US wanted the JPNese to evacuate the cities...

https://time.com/4142857/wwii-leaflets-japan/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/truman-leaflets/

It does not matter if the specific cities were not cited. The intent was to empty the cities as much as possible, even before the a-bombs were dropped. It was unfortunate that the JPNese citizenry did not heed those warnings. But the a-bombs as war crimes are weak charges at best.

Some kind of law and order should exist in the international community, if every country just goes by might is right, there's no point to have UN now. The world now is running based on the world order set up after WWII.

And it's not smart for Japan to make south Korea an enemy country.

How is order outlined and equally important -- maintained? Like it or not -- by force. Every parent knows this. Every parent executes very well in maintaining order in a household.

Unfortunately, the global household is a mess. There is no parent and if there is one, we believe it should be God or gods or whatever entity that is powerful enough to override all resistance to authority.

Authority is not force. A policeman does not have the physical power to stop a car but he has the authority to do so -- gesture of his hands.

So in the absence of God, the only thing that maintains the global order is -- might. And yes, even with God, it is 'might make right'. If you cannot defy God, then by default, what He says -- goes.

The UN have very weak authority and no power to enforce anything. Whenever force is needed, the UN relies on contributing members and by that necessity, the reasons for force are always under challenge by the members. If the reasons are not acceptable, there will be no force or a very weak force.

When your China declared the entirety of the South China Sea to be territorial waters, that is 'might is right' and you saw nothing wrong with it, even if force is needed to secure that claim.

 

[beijingwalker]

When your China declared the entirety of the South China Sea to be territorial waters, that is 'might is right' and you saw nothing wrong with it, even if force is needed to secure that claim.

Every country makes claims, other claimants make the same claim as China's if you check carefully, and China actually takes the least number of islands in South China Sea, other claimants occupy more.

 

[IblinI]

But he's right. There even was no war between Korea and Japan before Japan colonized Korea. From the begining of colonial Korea, towards the end, the population doubled, literacy rate quadroubled, hangul script became more widespread, and infrastructure was developed.

Sure Korea doesn't have to think highly about being colonized, a nation being free has much value onto itself, but there were many colonies in the world in that period that hard much harder and less beneficial experience. Comparatively speaking, Korea didn't get such a bad deal.

Besides, colonization was the outcome from the Russo-Japanese war, had Japan lost, Russia woukd have colonized them. Ask Poland or the Ukraine what they think about being under Soviet control...

 

[Viet]

Every country makes claims, other claimants make the same claim as China's if you check carefully, and China actually takes the least number of islands in South China Sea, other claimants occupy more.

You forget to mention China does not occupy any islands in the Atlantic, Vietnam no any islands in the East china Sea.

When the dashed lines were drawn, China did not possess any islands in the Sc Sea. Learning history, drawing conclusion will improve your IQ!

You're confusing the policies adopted by countries in the realm of geopolitics on one hand and history as it is on the other.

Japan brought civilization to Korea. The Koreans should not complain but be thankful to Japan. Look how Korea has become a prosperous country today.

 

[Flash_Ninja]

They fundamental mistake with "US had to drop bombs in order to end the war" is that it is on the basis that the US was in the right to bomb until unconditional surrender was achieved. Had the US been willing to end the war short of occupation if Japan itself, then the war probably could have ended before the atomic bombs could be judged as necessary. But the US wanted to create a new world order with the UN having 4 permanant security council seats (US, GB, Nationalist China, and SU). The occupation and complete dusmantling of Imperial Japan was their objective. People confuse that objective with "righteousness" and "justification" for "Japanese aggression" and "starting the war". Its all propaganda that gets people to think things like the use of the atomic bombs were not war crimes while the rape of Nankin was a war crime. Both were war crimes.

An argument could be made that dropping the bomb was for the "greater good" in that it prevented potentially limitless suffering at the hands of Imperial Japan, or even greater civillian casualties sustained by a land invasion of Japan.

Either way the point was that Japanese forces conducted attrocities with the only goal of terrorising and demoralising the civillian population, whereas the US goal was to force the Japanese military leadership into an early surrender.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Chinese took Manchuria? you know Manchuria was populated almost a 100% by the Chinese, don't you? If you mean Chinese committed atrocities against Chinese, I guess that's what the west has been claiming all the time, nothing new. they never say anything about the Chinese government lifted 1 billion people out of poverty or things like that.

Oh ohhh. Looks like someone disnt study their own countries history. Fact check, japan brought thousands of its citizens which colonized manchuria and when the chinese took over they committed atrocities on those immigrants.

 

[IblinI]

Japan brought civilization to Korea. The Koreans should not complain but be thankful to Japan. Look how Korea has become a prosperous country today.

Not only a Fascists lover but a Colonial lover too, disgusting. What an ugly double standard face.

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

You forget to mention China does not occupy any islands in the Atlantic, Vietnam no any islands in the East china Sea.

When the dashed lines were drawn, China did not possess any islands in the Sc Sea. Learning history, drawing conclusion will improve your IQ!




Japan brought civilization to Korea. The Koreans should not complain but be thankful to Japan. Look how Korea has become a prosperous country today.

You do know that around 2 million Vietnamese died because of Japanese invasion of Vietnam right?

Buts its okay because you like Anime and PlayStation so all is forgiven?

You remind me of the Vietnamese women I work with worshipping Japa

 

[Suika]

An argument could be made that dropping the bomb was for the "greater good" in that it prevented potentially limitless suffering at the hands of Imperial Japan, or even greater civillian casualties sustained by a land invasion of Japan.

Either way the point was that Japanese forces conducted attrocities with the only goal of terrorising and demoralising the civillian population, whereas the US goal was to force the Japanese military leadership into an early surrender.

Its still subjugation. Either on the ground or from the air, both are meant to establish the new power as boss and break the idea of resistance from the other side. It's the same. Mass civilians were murdered in the atomic bombings.

The victims of JPN's actions in WW II do not care about what the US did. If the intent is to classify what country should go into what box regarding whatever immoral and/or inhumane actions said country done in its history, then we can visit that debate elsewhere.


The a-bombs can be argued as war crimes on quite specious reasons.

In a war, humans and non-humans are considered assets to conduct a war. In history, there has been times when we cruelly targeted humans because we believe on A, B, C, and so on, rationales. A 'genocidal' war is a war that demands SPECIFICALLY humans as priority targets and systematic in execution. Destruction of domiciles and other items are considered tangential needs to weaken the humans in order to make killing them easier. What JPN did in WW II were cruel but not genocidal. What the Nazis did in WW II to the Jews and non-desirables were both genocidal and cruel. So for categorization, JPN is lower than Nazi Germany in scale of heinousness.

WW II was largely an industrial war between the US vs JPN and Nazi Germany. Industrial meaning the primary targets were non-human assets, and cities were targeted not because of the humans but because they were truly industrial centers. It is unfortunate and even cruel that humans were killed in the bombing campaigns but humans bereft of industries cannot conduct a war. It is in the same sense that the police tries to disarm a suspect instead of killing the suspect. Either way, the human is no longer a threat, but it is better to disarm.

The US wanted the JPNese to evacuate the cities...

https://time.com/4142857/wwii-leaflets-japan/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/truman-leaflets/

It does not matter if the specific cities were not cited. The intent was to empty the cities as much as possible, even before the a-bombs were dropped. It was unfortunate that the JPNese citizenry did not heed those warnings. But the a-bombs as war crimes are weak charges at best.


How is order outlined and equally important -- maintained? Like it or not -- by force. Every parent knows this. Every parent executes very well in maintaining order in a household.

Unfortunately, the global household is a mess. There is no parent and if there is one, we believe it should be God or gods or whatever entity that is powerful enough to override all resistance to authority.

Authority is not force. A policeman does not have the physical power to stop a car but he has the authority to do so -- gesture of his hands.

So in the absence of God, the only thing that maintains the global order is -- might. And yes, even with God, it is 'might make right'. If you cannot defy God, then by default, what He says -- goes.

The UN have very weak authority and no power to enforce anything. Whenever force is needed, the UN relies on contributing members and by that necessity, the reasons for force are always under challenge by the members. If the reasons are not acceptable, there will be no force or a very weak force.

When your China declared the entirety of the South China Sea to be territorial waters, that is 'might is right' and you saw nothing wrong with it, even if force is needed to secure that claim.

The first point shows that contrary to popular belief, the US has also been conducting such experiements. Therefore it is rich for only Japan to be slandared for having done it. All big states shoukd be slandared, not just one.

Japanese were already leaving cities when the air raid warnings came about. Early warnings look in the sky, and when they see the swarm of bombers coming, the air raid sounded, and they evacuated the cities. With the a-bombs, only two bombers departed. One for bombing and one for observing. So it didn't trigger an air warning. But you're argument about humans being part of industry, doesn't matter, civilians are civilians. The US objective for unconditional surrender was an American desire and not a justifiable from an outside perspective. US demands for unconditional surrender was made known at the Cairo declaration in late 1943 which among its "generous" demands was complete disarmament. I don't think you understand the weight behind such demand. No nation should willfully accept the entire security fully and entirely dependent on some fireign country whose bulk population lives in a whole different region. The bulk of that population would be totally uninformed and know nothing abojt the region that its armies are taking responsibility for. That is not justification. That is naive feeling of superiority and stupidity. The consequences to Imperial Japan being completely disarmed and dismantelted was communism spewing out and splashing all over Asia. So then only 5 years after having fought the WW2, American young men find themselves on the Asian continet doing the same thing Imperial Japanese soldiers were doing, killing, terrorizing, and dying. The ignorance of America on Asia matters disqualifies it for responsibily mounting a wig of justice for the Asia region. So for the sake of fools justice, yes, the A-bombs were a war crime, which makes Truman a war criminal and FDR a war criminal, if applying fools judge definition that Tojo was also a war criminal. And to make matters worse, the US cut Korea in half and threw the northern half to the Soviets and the Kim dynasty. Justice served? Koreans have been fooled into thinking that Imperial Japan was the worse offender to Korea. The worse offender has been Soviet communism and US ignorant "justice".

The US should have stayed out of the Philippines after beating up Spain.

Japan brought civilization to Korea. The Koreans should not complain but be thankful to Japan. Look how Korea has become a prosperous country today.

They don't have to be thankful. Losing national sovereignty is still something they can view negatively. But they need to understand things in total context. Japan was not so bad to them. Plenty of other colonies have had it worse. And yes, some things that they learned from Japan helped them develop their own economy.

 

[beijingwalker]

Oh ohhh. Looks like someone disnt study their own countries history. Fact check, japan brought thousands of its citizens which colonized manchuria and when the chinese took over they committed atrocities on those immigrants.

What atrocities besides adopting the children those heartless parents left behind? what kind of parents that would leave behind their children at any circumstances?

 

[Kyle Sun]

No its not, same as usual, its just that some in ROK are hysterical, that's all.

Hysterical?
Not as hysterical as those Japanese who ask USA to apologize for nuking 2 cities.

dd

 

[Kyle Sun]

They fundamental mistake with "US had to drop bombs in order to end the war" is that it is on the basis that the US was in the right to bomb until unconditional surrender was achieved. Had the US been willing to end the war short of occupation if Japan itself, then the war probably could have ended before the atomic bombs could be judged as necessary.

Cry out for the fking crazy nazi animal Japan who used kamikaze to attack US navy in WW2 ?
Wasting soldiers' lives to fight the animal Japanese who didn't even give a damn for their own livess when having atomic bombs is truly war crime.

 

[Suika]

Hysterical?
Not as hysterical as those Japanese who ask USA to apologize for nuking 2 cities.

dd

Only a small minority wants an apology. Even when Obama visited Hiroshima, no request was made for an apology. They appreciated his visit. And to reciprocate it, afterwards Abe went to pay respects at Pearl Harbor.

Cry out for the fking crazy nazi animal Japan who used kamikaze to attack US navy in WW2 ?
Wasting soldiers' lives to fight the animal Japanese who didn't even give a damn for their own livess when having atomic bombs is truly war crime.

What was even worse than the A-bombs was the creation of conditions to enable a party founded on lying and trolling, the CCP, to win control of China, thus we (the US, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, Australia, GB, Vietnam, etc, etc) are now stuck with this troll PRC regime.

 

[beijingwalker]

What was even worse than the A-bombs was the creation of conditions to enable a party founded on lying and trolling, the CCP, to win control of China, thus we (the US, Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, Australia, GB, Vietnam, etc, etc) are now stuck with this troll PRC regime.

LOL... A conquered nation with no dependent foreign policy believing being an equal partner to US, you are just a lapdog ready to do US biddings at any moment, nothing more. and at US beck and call makes you isolated in east Asian region, you have no friends here and serving US guarding dog in east Asia can only bring peril of your nation in the long run.