Society, Women and Behashti Zewar

[I.R.A]

There are far more people trying to shut down any debate critical of the role of religion than those trying to do what is really required.

A religion is only what its followers actually do, not what they claim.

First thing let us be clear here I agreed with you on questioning man written literature in whatever form it is being articulated and sold. However, I will never agree with your argument on role of religion and how modern times demand that we make should changes to our religion or Islam needs to adopt changes and be compatible with these times crap (if I have interpreted you correctly); as long as you keep calling Muslims as Islam you are going to end up blaming Islam every time. Muslims and Islam are two different thing, the earlier may or may not be following later in its true spirit and form. So I won’t blame Islam for actions of Muslims just because Muslims associate with Islam.

 

[Secur]

Please note that the book is not based on Moulana Thanvis' personal opinion about Islam but he has always consulted with Fiqh and Hadith. You can argue with Moulana's (or his School of Thought) interpretation of Fiqh and Hidth but it would be unfair to consider him a dishonest or vicious person.

I would ask you to read what I have posted from his book and then determine if the fiqh was right, even with the historical context, even in an age where in the extreme a women would burn down with her husband. Why become wrong yourself when trying to inhibit wrongs? The basic idea of the need to write the book because the "women are inherently intellectually deficient" is flawed in itself. Maulana Thanwi might have got many things right (when quoting directly from primary sources) but his interpretation of many things as well as his opinions aren't right.

 

[syedali73]

First thing let us be clear here I agreed with you on questioning man written literature in whatever form it is being articulated and sold. However, I will never agree with your argument on role of religion and how modern times demand that we make should changes to our religion or Islam needs to adopt changes and be compatible with these times crap (if I have interpreted you correctly); as long as you keep calling Muslims as Islam you are going to end up blaming Islam every time. Muslims and Islam are two different thing, the earlier may or may not be following later in its true spirit and form. So I won’t blame Islam for actions of Muslims just because Muslims associate with Islam.

This reminds me of an event. Few years ago, Dr. Mahathir (ex PM Malaysia) was invited for a seminar in Islamabad. After his speech, people were invited for question and answer session. An ultra liberal woman stood up and vomited "We need to fix deficiencies in Quran". Dr. Mahathir maintained his composure and replied to that ultra liberal woman: "There are no deficiencies in Quran, but among ourselves; we need to get them fixed".

I will suggest you not to feed rabid trolls for no amount of your reasoning will make them understand. They are not here to share knowledge but on a single point agenda, i.e. to ridicule Islam. Like I mentioned before, they even read Quran not to seek knowledge, but to find deficiencies in it; they read Hadith, not in the quest of learning, but to find weaknesses, which they then use to mock Islamic teachings. Such so-called 'rationalists' are best left alone.

I would ask you to read what I have posted from his book and then determine if the fiqh was right, even with the historical context, even in an age where in the extreme a women would burn down with her husband. Why become wrong yourself when trying to inhibit wrongs? The basic idea of the need to write the book because the "women are inherently intellectually deficient" is flawed in itself. Maulana Thanwi might have got many things right (when quoting directly from primary sources) but his interpretation of many things as well as his opinions aren't right.

There are certain things no logical person will agree with. I am with you on those points.

 

[araz]

Yeah, shut down any critical thought. Heaven forbid! Way to go!

Please know that religion lies at the heart of the existential problems Pakistan is facing today, and shutting down debate is no way helpful.

Bhai
Instead of getting huffed and puffed read my post again with a cool brain and understand the coñtent before commenting. What I have said is a rule on this forum so I have said nothing out of the ordinary. The rest of the post I stand by firmly
Araz

 

[Secur]

I already said criticism of this book is fine with me, I have no problem with that, its a man written book and it must have contradictions and suspicious quotes.

But you never replied to my question "What is the alternate" how this current modern society should look at the role of women? How women should behave in this society? Role models to follow of this modern society?

What you did is conveniently assumed / labelled it a deobandi thought, okay suppose I am deobandi, my wife is a government officer, my sister is working for foreign organisation, my aunts have been school teachers (though my grandfather was a strict person a kutter Bralevi, living in a remote tiny village but he got all his children educated). Tell me what are the role models to follow? Does your modern society tolerate a conservative brilliant working lady? I have seen females being rejected because they were not willing to take off their veils because office they were applying for did not like it.

What I see is that your modern society is hell bent on making women a showpiece, working women face hell of problems, I don't know if you have experience of Corporate or not but most of the vultures are those stylish Ganjas with awkward beards who feed and exploit the needs of a job seeking female, I have been part of interviews where the boss's selection criteria was how much pretty a lady looks, hardly a molvi with beard exploits them in offices, In nutshell do you think your modern society is willing to give women respect they deserve as being women, no matter what role they play?

And just how and why would any religious person take advice from liberals if that is what you have in mind? Let me try to answer that question though. Equality, freedom and opportunity should mark the practices by which the modern society looks at the role of women. It is important to note that the modern society isn't a transgression or deviation from the religion, it is in fact an evolution of what the religion teaches with time. This society may have many faults but I still have seen it respecting and accommodating "what it doesn't find in itself normally". And how many "veiled conservative women" would even work? Even today, it is uncommon for that crowd to get any meaningful secular education to have marketable skills. To be honest, it has been my observation that most highly educated females even those who aren't conservative (where I used to study, it wasn't uncommon for them to leave after two and a half or three years on account of being married) wouldn't pursue a career but would rather stay at home, something which in my opinion is a blatant disregard for those who might have actually have made anything out of it, who might have worked in the field and who might have contributed to the society and country, not to mention the monetary loss encountered by the tax payers because of their non-working (since Govt universities are largely subsidized). It is for that reason that Pakistan medical council recently allocated fifty-fifty seats for both genders regardless of the merit (as was previously the norm).

Nyet, it isn't hellbent on making them anything. It is by their own choice, how they act and what they become. Freedom is a double edged sword. I am aware of the existence of such cases, however that isn't the general mood. If you are good at what you do, from what I have seen, veil or anything else wouldn't be a problem. You still would have to interact with the opposite gender though obviously!

 

[I.R.A]

And just how and why would any religious person take advice from liberals if that is what you have in mind? Let me try to answer that question though. Equality, freedom and opportunity should mark the practices by which the modern society looks at the role of women. It is important to note that the modern society isn't a transgression or deviation from the religion, it is in fact an evolution of what the religion teaches with time. This society may have many faults but I still have seen it respecting and accommodating "what it doesn't find in itself normally". And how many "veiled conservative women" would even work? Even today, it is uncommon for that crowd to get any meaningful secular education to have marketable skills. To be honest, it has been my observation that most highly educated females even those who aren't conservative (where I used to study, it wasn't uncommon for them to leave after two and a half or three years on account of being married) wouldn't pursue a career but would rather stay at home, something which in my opinion is a blatant disregard for those who might have actually have made anything out of it, who might have worked in the field and who might have contributed to the society and country, not to mention the monetary loss encountered by the tax payers because of their non-working (since Govt universities are largely subsidized). It is for that reason that Pakistan medical council recently allocated fifty-fifty seats for both genders regardless of the merit (as was previously the norm).

Nyet, it isn't hellbent on making them anything. It is by their own choice, how they act and what they become. Freedom is a double edged sword. I am aware of the existence of such cases, however that isn't the general mood. If you are good at what you do, from what I have seen, veil or anything else wouldn't be a problem. You still would have to interact with the opposite gender though obviously!

Do you have a society bro that would or respects women or you would like me to refer you to threads here on this forum where you can see for yourself how woman is treated and thought of? Thoughts of most liberal and educated people of Pakistan by the way .

You have observed the same thing that I said in my very initial post, when it comes to choosing between children and career majority will choose children, it is not some restriction imposed by anyone, it is natural, in built in them.

And what makes you think veiled women won't want to work?

And if it is choice of women themselves, that what they want to become and how they want to enjoy this freedom, then do you have a system in place (apart from religious code of conduct) that would educate them to understand that this freedom is two edged sword? And they should respect it.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Not only in this case Mubarak liar has lied on several things related to Muslims and liars even this is biased crap. This moron is a known miserable retarded historian.

I thought Bahishti Zewar was written in modern times by the Deobandi Sufi Ashraf Thanwi and got ruling from the classical Hanafi books of fiqh

 

[araz]

Without any knowledge? Seriously? How do we assume that? Because I have read the book in detail by now and the more I read it, the more I am astonished at the narrow mindedness and disregard for women shown in its text. Most of you claim how Islam is very easy to understand and act upon yet when someone will try to understand and give his/her opinion and specially when that opinion goes against your opinion or is heaven forbid critical, it is always declared to be without knowledge and consideration.

You approve of the defense of the feudal system and male chauvinism under the guise of religion even in his own time? It can be seen that despite talking against the "cultural deviations from Islam" and "man-made practices" initially, the revered Maulana succumbed to the same during the process.



Yes indeed, that was the best course of action for the poor lady proudly presented as an example for all of women. She might be heaven bound for showing patience however I am not certain if that is a course of action to be encouraged or to advice "hopelessness and helplessness" in dealing with such matters since any form of compulsion or forceful action would always be counterproductive as appropriate!



The paradoxical problem is that such boards consider it near-blasphemy and utter disrespect to question or be critical of anything related to the religion. And no, most of them consists of cyber-Mullahs and arm chair Aalims making simple observations or repeating "heard and read" knowledge.

Secure.
This is the second time I have had to step in against my principles of not interfering in matters pertaining to religion. You have done my post a gross disfavour by selectively quoting things to enhance your point of view.
A. The lack of understanding that I refer to is lack of understanding of deen where you seriously lack insight. As @ syedali73 has very kindly said as well you have cleverly omitted to refer to the bits about the timing of the book its capture audience and the fact that the Deobandi school is indianized. Having said that to malign an Aalim likeMaulana Thanvi even if I dont agree with a lot of things written by him by a Religious Jahil like you is like you telling me how to take out someone's Gall bladder when I have done it most of my life. So in short LAY OFF THE RELIGIOUS BLAME GAME.
B. Where have I defended feudalism. In fact in islam you are not allowed to keep more land than you can till. As to Male chauvanism read the Quran and the " Al rajaalonoa quamoona ilan Nisa bima fadalallaho ala baadahum" Añd man has been made masters over women on account of the favour that Allah has granted to one over the other (Al Nisa 34). Irrespective of the connotations that fhe Ulema have come up with in the study of this ayat there is consensus on the issue of male dominance in the issue of the household. So if you have an argument go take it up with your maker. The Rasool Allah SAW showed us in his behaviour with our mothers how a compassionate and caring husband should play his role. You in your eagerness to bash Islam have put all of it to one side. How fair is that.?
C You have again shown your blatant lack of understanding of what I have written. What do you suggest these women do. The fact is that like all 5 fingers are not alike not all men are the same. You just have to look around to see plenty of such examples both in the east and the west. The question that I put to you is what does this woman do? In a culture and time when divorce was unheard of and looked down upon what future does she have when even her own parents might not have accepted her back. What does she do. Perhaps you might not see it that way but look at and talk to your grandma if you can and ask her what the fate of a divorced woman was. Maulana has given the same advice that Abu Bakr RA gave to Asma RA(again something that you have chosen to ignore). So now would you label Abu bakr as a chauvanist as well. Or call AzZubair bad when Rasool Allah has given him the glad tidings of Jannah. SubhanAllah do you not see the futility of this argument.
Come over to the west and see the fate of the emancipated woman. Just a few days ago there was a report in the news in London that for the top jobs in the city women are still being paid 15-20% less than man. And the liberated society has 1 in 3 marriages ending in divorce 1 in 3 ch8ldren born out of wedlock and guess where they all end up !!?wwith their mother. How do you think they feel when they see their mother sleeping with this man today and that man tomorrow. Some families have 4 siblings from 4 different fathers. This is one fucked up generation that the so called liberalism has produced.So do you think this is better or the woman whose husband gives her a hard time but she is patient. Remember the option of divorce is open to both but of all the allowed th8ngs it is the least well liked in islam. So I ask you again how much of your religion do you actually know. H9w fair are you being to the Maulana saheb in light of what he has written in the time in which he wrote it.
There is no problem in asking questions from the ulema provided the intention is to learn and not to bash somebody.
You need to ask yourself what is your motive in raising these questions. Do you intend to learn or just argue for the heck of it. If it is the latter then carry on and I will bow out and you are responsible for whatever you write. If you want to learn then the forum is not the right setting as I have indicated earlier.
Araz

 

[Secur]

Secure.
This is the second time I have had to step in against my principles of not interfering in matters pertaining to religion. You have done my post a gross disfavour by selectively quoting things to enhance your point of view.
A. The lack of understanding that I refer to is lack of understanding of deen where you seriously lack insight. As @ syedali73 has very kindly said as well you have cleverly omitted to refer to the bits about the timing of the book its capture audience and the fact that the Deobandi school is indianized. Having said that to malign an Aalim likeMaulana Thanvi even if I dont agree with a lot of things written by him by a Religious Jahil like you is like you telling me how to take out someone's Gall bladder when I have done it most of my life. So in short LAY OFF THE RELIGIOUS BLAME GAME.
B. Where have I defended feudalism. In fact in islam you are not allowed to keep more land than you can till. As to Male chauvanism read the Quran and the " Al rajaalonoa quamoona ilan Nisa bima fadalallaho ala baadahum" Añd man has been made masters over women on account of the favour that Allah has granted to one over the other (Al Nisa 34). Irrespective of the connotations that fhe Ulema have come up with in the study of this ayat there is consensus on the issue of male dominance in the issue of the household. So if you have an argument go take it up with your maker. The Rasool Allah SAW showed us in his behaviour with our mothers how a compassionate and caring husband should play his role. You in your eagerness to bash Islam have put all of it to one side. How fair is that.?
C You have again shown your blatant lack of understanding of what I have written. What do you suggest these women do. The fact is that like all 5 fingers are not alike not all men are the same. You just have to look around to see plenty of such examples both in the east and the west. The question that I put to you is what does this woman do? In a culture and time when divorce was unheard of and looked down upon what future does she have when even her own parents might not have accepted her back. What does she do. Perhaps you might not see it that way but look at and talk to your grandma if you can and ask her what the fate of a divorced woman was. Maulana has given the same advice that Abu Bakr RA gave to Asma RA(again something that you have chosen to ignore). So now would you label Abu bakr as a chauvanist as well. Or call AzZubair bad when Rasool Allah has given him the glad tidings of Jannah. SubhanAllah do you not see the futility of this argument.
Come over to the west and see the fate of the emancipated woman. Just a few days ago there was a report in the news in London that for the top jobs in the city women are still being paid 15-20% less than man. And the liberated society has 1 in 3 marriages ending in divorce 1 in 3 ch8ldren born out of wedlock and guess where they all end up !!?wwith their mother. How do you think they feel when they see their mother sleeping with this man today and that man tomorrow. Some families have 4 siblings from 4 different fathers. This is one fucked up generation that the so called liberalism has produced.So do you think this is better or the woman whose husband gives her a hard time but she is patient. Remember the option of divorce is open to both but of all the allowed th8ngs it is the least well liked in islam. So I ask you again how much of your religion do you actually know. H9w fair are you being to the Maulana saheb in light of what he has written in the time in which he wrote it.
There is no problem in asking questions from the ulema provided the intention is to learn and not to bash somebody.
You need to ask yourself what is your motive in raising these questions. Do you intend to learn or just argue for the heck of it. If it is the latter then carry on and I will bow out and you are responsible for whatever you write. If you want to learn then the forum is not the right setting as I have indicated earlier.
Araz

Forgive me, I don't take very kindly to compromise and rationalizing something which is wrong on the face of it. The historical context and condition of Muslims might be a valid excuse, but that doesn't explain why a religiously knowledgeable person like Maulana Thanwi would start agreeing with the same ignorant crowd, he wishes to educate by writing his book. Yes, I have quoted selected passages from the book and your post, that is because I consider them to be the undertones behind the whole thing. To be critical isn't always to malign. I myself don't believe in any blind following or considering the Aalim (or anyone else for that matter) "right" or "having better knowledge which I may not be able to understand" despite knowing that he's not right, even if in a single opinion of his. In my understanding, the same God you worship also has granted you with a free thinking critical brain to form own opinion about things and matters instead of outsourcing it to a religious personality. I believe in using it without fearing for God's punishment on every little thing and on having an opinion contrary to the regular opinion around me. Would you start treating religion like any other complex worldly science despite telling people how easy it is to understand (ample references from holy books there too) for everyone? Anyone can be wrong even if he has something his entire life, I see no utility in not pointing it out.

 

[Armstrong]

@Secur - I am too lazy to go through all those long posts so tell me whats being discussed here !

And whats your position on the issue so that I may take an opposite position !

 

[VCheng]

First thing let us be clear here I agreed with you on questioning man written literature in whatever form it is being articulated and sold. However, I will never agree with your argument on role of religion and how modern times demand that we make should changes to our religion or Islam needs to adopt changes and be compatible with these times crap (if I have interpreted you correctly); as long as you keep calling Muslims as Islam you are going to end up blaming Islam every time. Muslims and Islam are two different thing, the earlier may or may not be following later in its true spirit and form. So I won’t blame Islam for actions of Muslims just because Muslims associate with Islam.

Consider the following: If one considers Islam as a religion for all times to come, then it must be capable of change to keep itself relevant. Not the basics of course, but the application of those basic must remain flexible, otherwise it fossilizes itself into gradual irrelevance. For example, how would a Muslim fast on the poles or in orbit? Clearly, the old interpretations of sehri and iftari timings can not hold true.

Similarly, Islam is only what Muslims do. There can be no separating the actions of its followers from the motivation provided by the religion.

Bhai
Instead of getting huffed and puffed read my post again with a cool brain and understand the coñtent before commenting. What I have said is a rule on this forum so I have said nothing out of the ordinary. The rest of the post I stand by firmly
Araz

I would no problem accepting your pontification were it not for the fact that religious threads and material have been long tolerated and indeed promoted if they are of the approved variety. Witness the posts by @revol in the Member's section, and the plethora of Ramadan threads soon to come. Indeed, there are several title holders who enforce the same tyranny of strangulating thought that permeates throughout the Muslim world today, with similar consequences.

Or perhaps I can expect you to enforce the same rule with equal effectiveness when I point out religious threads and posts here?

 

[Gufi]

This debate is really two poles
@Secur and @araz gentlemen let us respect that you both have differences of opinion and they are not small. So both of you read up on the issue in detail from different sources and make up your opinion and continue this privately in PM.

As for the topic at hand, every scholar has started from the basics. They read the Quran and then Sunnah and Hadith, after which they read tafsir and fiqh. And they all write that if any of what we say contradicts any of the above, please consider the Quran and hadith correct.
Not all knowledge is available to every scholar in the older times, and the understanding is also dependant on what has experienced in their life time. Thus it is best for us to study the life of the Prophet(Peace be upon him) before we move on to other books, as well as reading the Tafsir and the life of the Sahaba, so that we may understand things better.
As far as the relationship between man and woman is concerned, it is clearly laid out in the Quran, abundant Hadith, and to argue or debate them is not really the place of ours.
There is a difference between critical thinking and questioning the orders of the Prophet(peace be upon him) and sometimes in our debates we cross many lines that we should not. Discussing religion is not meant for this forum, because here there is no differentiation for those who are more learned and those who think themselves learned. There are many forums that cater to religious debates and they have scholars and people well versed in the intricate things many here believe themselves to be knowledgeable in.
As far as cursing or ridiculing any person, @Zarvan and others, you do not know their life story, especially after they are dead. Even IF they did wrong, we do not know if they did not spend their old age asking forgiveness for it, and we do not know their intentions on what they did write. So do not curse anyone, other then Shaytan, and do not curse those who are dead because if they have sinned they will be punished, and if they have not sinned they will be rewarded, but for cursing another Muslim, there is only punishment.

So what you want from them? to take up weapons and start massacring those who do not tend to agree with their approach? You were a terrorist sympathizer, you will remain one.

@WebMaster @Oscar @Horus @Jango @Jungibaaz @waz Please educate me why this terrorist apologist is being tolerated here?

r one or two seemingly moderate post, he's back to his normal self. I have deleted that post thoug, we aren't exactly willing to teach people more violence than they already know.

Rather then delete the post, you need to ask him what he means. Even I agree that the tableeghis have been too nice, and too peaceful. Now before you label someone @syedali73 ask what they mean, because there is a role for the scholar in Islam. For example, when children in Thar are dying, it is the responsibility of the scholar of Islam to ask the Government why are they so apathetic to the condition rather then just ask for donations (which is a good thing but not the only responsibility). There is a middle ground between picking up arms and not saying anything and that is questioning the leader and asking him why is this happening in the country. We forget that Islam is more then just fulfilling the rights of Allah the Almighty, but also fulfilling the right of the people, and the scholars have to play a role in highlighting the mistakes that are causing death and misery to the people without being political about it.
@Secur read the following and tell me what is so gut wrenchingly violent about what he said

Please when I said that what I am saying is they keep their mouth shut on every issue weather Afghanistan or Iraq or Burma they don't say a single word yet alone any protest.

and a bit out of the topic, but remember that while debating Islamic topics, when we take the name of our Prophet (peace be upon him) we should send darood.
It was narrated from Husayn ibn ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The miser is the one in whose presence I am mentioned and he does not send blessings upon me.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (3546) and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel (1/35).

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May his nose be rubbed in the dust, the one in whose presence I am mentioned and he does not send blessings upon me.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (3545) and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani inSaheeh al-Tirmidhi.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Similarly, Islam is only what Muslims do. There can be no separating the actions of its followers from the motivation provided by the religion.

Very lame argument. Muslims can commit rape then would you say Islam preach act of rape? There are Muslims out there who can misinterpret teaching of their religion because of ignorance or lack of knowledge of Islam so these two are not same. Two Muslims can also do two opposite things. I.e Muslim A is a Muslim who think suicide is haram in Islam and don't believe in any violence against civilian, Muslim B believe that suicide is justified so they both cannot represent Islam as they both contradict to each others and both cannot be true

 

[syedali73]

This debate is really two poles
@Secur and @araz gentlemen let us respect that you both have differences of opinion and they are not small. So both of you read up on the issue in detail from different sources and make up your opinion and continue this privately in PM.

As for the topic at hand, every scholar has started from the basics. They read the Quran and then Sunnah and Hadith, after which they read tafsir and fiqh. And they all write that if any of what we say contradicts any of the above, please consider the Quran and hadith correct.
Not all knowledge is available to every scholar in the older times, and the understanding is also dependant on what has experienced in their life time. Thus it is best for us to study the life of the Prophet(Peace be upon him) before we move on to other books, as well as reading the Tafsir and the life of the Sahaba, so that we may understand things better.
As far as the relationship between man and woman is concerned, it is clearly laid out in the Quran, abundant Hadith, and to argue or debate them is not really the place of ours.
There is a difference between critical thinking and questioning the orders of the Prophet(peace be upon him) and sometimes in our debates we cross many lines that we should not. Discussing religion is not meant for this forum, because here there is no differentiation for those who are more learned and those who think themselves learned. There are many forums that cater to religious debates and they have scholars and people well versed in the intricate things many here believe themselves to be knowledgeable in.
As far as cursing or ridiculing any person, @Zarvan and others, you do not know their life story, especially after they are dead. Even IF they did wrong, we do not know if they did not spend their old age asking forgiveness for it, and we do not know their intentions on what they did write. So do not curse anyone, other then Shaytan, and do not curse those who are dead because if they have sinned they will be punished, and if they have not sinned they will be rewarded, but for cursing another Muslim, there is only punishment.


Rather then delete the post, you need to ask him what he means. Even I agree that the tableeghis have been too nice, and too peaceful. Now before you label someone @syedali73 ask what they mean, because there is a role for the scholar in Islam. For example, when children in Thar are dying, it is the responsibility of the scholar of Islam to ask the Government why are they so apathetic to the condition rather then just ask for donations (which is a good thing but not the only responsibility). There is a middle ground between picking up arms and not saying anything and that is questioning the leader and asking him why is this happening in the country. We forget that Islam is more then just fulfilling the rights of Allah the Almighty, but also fulfilling the right of the people, and the scholars have to play a role in highlighting the mistakes that are causing death and misery to the people without being political about it.
@Secur read the following and tell me what is so gut wrenchingly violent about what he said


and a bit out of the topic, but remember that while debating Islamic topics, when we take the name of our Prophet (peace be upon him) we should send darood.
It was narrated from Husayn ibn ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The miser is the one in whose presence I am mentioned and he does not send blessings upon me.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (3546) and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel (1/35).

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May his nose be rubbed in the dust, the one in whose presence I am mentioned and he does not send blessings upon me.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (3545) and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani inSaheeh al-Tirmidhi.

Argument for the sake or argument is one thing otherwise I personally fail to understand why we are discussing a book that is neither being read nor practiced these days. The Urdu of the book is so classical that not many Pakistanis coming out of our royally screwed up education system can really read and understand its contents. Tradition of reading books (let alone thick religious books) is on its last breaths or in-fact already dead. Now Beheshti Zewar -type books are either found in libraries of old parrots like me or in the public libraries where nobody get them issued. Bottom line is, this book is not affecting the society so why are we discussing something that has become irrelevant both in its teaching and its influence?

Very lame argument. Muslims can commit rape then would you say Islam preach act of rape? There are Muslims out there who can misinterpret teaching of their religion because of ignorance or lack of knowledge of Islam so these two are not same. Two Muslims can also do two opposite things. I.e Muslim A is a Muslim who think suicide is haram in Islam and don't believe in any violence against civilian, Muslim B believe that suicide is justified so they both cannot represent Islam as they both contradict to each others and both cannot be true

Please do not feed Islamophobe trolls. More you'll engage them, more they'll foul mouth about your religion and indirectly you'll be responsible too for such abuse towards your religion. They are best left alone.

 

[VCheng]

And now we are back to trying to shut the discussion down. How predictable!

Very lame argument. Muslims can commit rape then would you say Islam preach act of rape? There are Muslims out there who can misinterpret teaching of their religion because of ignorance or lack of knowledge of Islam so these two are not same. Two Muslims can also do two opposite things. I.e Muslim A is a Muslim who think suicide is haram in Islam and don't believe in any violence against civilian, Muslim B believe that suicide is justified so they both cannot represent Islam as they both contradict to each others and both cannot be true

Such apologias no longer work to excuse the atrocities Muslims are committing. And if the criminals are not "true" Muslims, then Islam is a religion with very, very few followers, which are reducing by the day. So which is it?