Society, Women and Behashti Zewar

[VCheng]

I agree with the first part that being a good and responsible citizen doesnt require a religious law
in the second part you make a comment which butthurts us much because you look at the issues with human rights, justice, inequality, nepotism and poor governance in all Muslim countries that have complete or partial implementation of Islamic law for its name sake. I presume you are hitting at the monarchies, clergies and political dynasties that use Islam NOT the Islam it self.



sorry but I disagree with the negative rating. he didn't mention any Muslim country specially our Pakistan. I cant think of a single Muslim country with or without "islamic" prefix to its name that doesnt exploit its citizenry let alone its unfortunate non-Muslim population.

Truth hurts!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

You were talking about Muslims before and now you are jumping toward state. Pakistan is not Islamic state and our constitution, banking system, educational system, courts, police etc are mostly based on same secular system left by british and beside religious extremism nothing else has anything to do with religion

he didnt mention Pakistan did he?

Pakistan is not Islamic state and our constitution, banking system, educational system, courts, police etc are mostly based on same secular system left by british and beside religious extremism nothing else has anything to do with religion

you say that, yet looking at Hadood ordinance and the way daughter of eve is disrespected in our sharia courts by the lawyers of the defendants is heart rending. and what I dare say about Blasphemy law? even writing or commenting about law is seen as Blasphemous.
we have a comfortable compromise here just like "Jhamhuriat ka husan" we use Islam when it suits us and we seek highest profit paying (read intest) accounts when it suits us.

 

[syedali73]

I agree with the first part that being a good and responsible citizen doesnt require a religious law
in the second part you make a comment which butthurts us much because you look at the issues with human rights, justice, inequality, nepotism and poor governance in all Muslim countries that have complete or partial implementation of Islamic law for its name sake. I presume you are hitting at the monarchies, clergies and political dynasties that use Islam NOT the Islam it self.



sorry but I disagree with the negative rating. he didn't mention any Muslim country specially our Pakistan. I cant think of a single Muslim country with or without "islamic" prefix to its name that doesnt exploit its citizenry let alone its unfortunate non-Muslim population.

This thing has clearly associated implication of Islam with all the social ills yet you are siding with him. You have issues with me and my negative ratings and it is not new. Take this issue to management and get me relieve from this TTA thingy. I ll be grateful to you for this favor.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

This thing has clearly associated implication of Islam with all the social ills yet you are siding with him. You have issues with me and my negative ratings and it is not new. Take this issue to management and get me relieve from this TTA thingy. I ll be grateful to you for this favor.

its not even you and never will be
I dont even have issues with Indian members
again I have expressed my opinion .NOT a judgement,
again, IMHO, Islam is never insulted if you condemn taliban or Iranian clergy or house of saud.

 

[VCheng]

he didnt mention Pakistan did he?

you say that, yet looking at Hadood ordinance and the way daughter of eve is disrespected in our sharia courts by the lawyers of the defendants is heart rending. and what I dare say about Blasphemy law? even writing or commenting about law is seen as Blasphemous.
we have a comfortable compromise here just like "Jhamhuriat ka husan" we use Islam when it suits us and we seek highest profit paying (read intest) accounts when it suits us.

He? Him? I am being dehumanized by being called "the thing". You see, beheading of things is easier than people. How typical! .

Back to the topic, the literature similar to BZ is extensive indeed. It should all be open to critical analysis to determine relevance to this day and age.

 

[syedali73]

its not even you and never will be
I dont even have issues with Indian members
again I have expressed my opinion .NOT a judgement,
again, IMHO, Islam is never insulted if you condemn taliban or Iranian clergy or house of saud.

Irfan, I admit I have not born to a native English speaking parents but my English is not that bad that I could not comprehend simple sentences. HE was not condeming Taliban or Iranian or Saudi clergy, but very clearly associating Islam with all social ills. This was not the first time he showed his DELETED and not the last time. Social ills are not present in non-islamic countries? Latin America, most Africa, and South East Asia are Muslim? Is corruption not rampant in these parts of the world? Crimes do not take place there? The fact of the matter is, crimes and corruption and other social ills are lowest in KSA and Iran compared to other countries and there are stats that point towards that. How this intellectually dishonest Islamophobe will explain that?

EDITED: derogatory comments

 

[VCheng]

Can we please get back to the topic?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Can we please get back to the topic?

the topic is useless bantering where bunch of single frustrated guys are trying to tell how husband and wife should set up their relationship.

There is very little being done in terms of clear guidance even though husband-wife pair forms the core of any society, and wife is at the core of marriage with HUGE responsibilities.

And yet in 2015 Pakistan, wife is never given clear direction before she gets into contract of marriage.

At least BZ does try.

Instead of bashing BZ, why not quote books that give better guidance.

please list here.

Thank you.

 

[VCheng]

the topic is useless bantering where bunch of single frustrated guys are trying to tell how husband and wife should set up their relationship.

Even though husband-wife pair forms the core of any society, and wife is at the core of marriage with HUGE responsibilities.

And ye in 2015, wife is never given clear direction before she gets into contract of marriage.

At least BZ does try.

Instead of bashing BZ, why not quote books that give better guidance.

please list here.

Thank you.

Nobody is bashing BZ, but merely recognizing that it is outdated. Similar religious books that provide guidance in such matters that have been updated to meet modern day challenges do not exist, perhaps because of the fact that the whole religion has developed a tendency to look backwards into the past rather than forward into the future.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Nobody is bashing BZ, but merely recognizing that it is outdated. Similar religious books that provide guidance in such matters that have been updated to meet modern day challenges do not exist, perhaps because of the fact that the whole religion has developed a tendency to look backwards into the past rather than forward into the future.

agreed.

"outdated" is a loaded word though.

It is easy to quote from Western or West settled authors.

But who is there is fix things in Pakistan if they are broken.

I see from my older married cousins and perhaps 1 out of 10 have a marriage where wife knows her responsibilities and her status as the core to the society and family.

The rest of the wives are just pompous, and lazy arse upper middle class women who have no forking idea except complaining about mother in law and starting intrigues at the behest of her mom.

These lazy arse wives could use BZ even 10% of reading could make it huge difference for the families.

peace

 

[VCheng]

agreed.

"outdated" is a loaded word though.

It is easy to quote from Western or West settled authors.

But who is there is fix things in Pakistan if they are broken.

I see from my older married cousins and perhaps 1 out of 10 have a marriage where wife knows her responsibilities and her status as the core to the society and family.

The rest of the wives are just pompous, and lazy arse upper middle class women who have no forking idea except complaining about mother in law and starting intrigues at the behest of her mom.

These lazy arse wives could use BZ even 10% of reading could make it huge difference for the families.

peace

It is not a matter of Western books, the three basic questions in this regard having been previously posted:

I agree with you here. The problem is that anybody saying that openly will be chastised, hounded, and even harmed into silence in present day Pakistan. What is truly scary is not the level of subservience advocated and demanded, it is the extent to which such ideas are held by society-at-large in Pakistan.

In this day and age, look at it these ways:

Would I want a wife who is nothing more than a glorified servant and sexual partner?

Would I want my daughter to be treated like this when she is married off?

Would I want my son to treat his wife in such a manner?

No, no, and no!

Is Pakistani society really ready to give women an actual place and stake, rather than merely paying lip service?

 

[FaujHistorian]

....

Would I want a wife who is nothing more than a glorified servant and sexual partner?

Would I want my daughter to be treated like this when she is married off?

Would I want my son to treat his wife in such a manner?

No, no, and no!

Obviously these are stereotypical views.

Before you can talk about future wife, Why not ask what kind of mom one would like to have.

1. Would one have a mom, who is dedicated to the well being of him/her
2. Dedication means, from the time he/she is born, mom is there to breast feed, change clothes
3. Mom teaches the kid to read and write early
4. Mom makes sure Dad and kid have healthy food
5. Mom makes sure spiritual well being of the family
6. Thus Mom is the true leader of the house that keeps present safe while keeping an eye on the future

Now tell me if any of these things puts a Mom in a bad light or belittles her.

Please?

Based on my extensive travels through West, a single mom has really really hard time doing the list above. She needs a reliable father, who feels safe and secure in the house.

And if she doesn't, well, there are plenty of single mothers in the West who carry 3 babies from 3 fathers and then live with an abusive boy friend.

So please see, that stereotypes are different from reality.
Single guys cannot even fathom what a good mother is before they can think about a good wife.

 

[VCheng]

Obviously these are stereotypical views.

Before you can talk about future wife, Why not ask what kind of mom one would like to have.

1. Would one have a mom, who is dedicated to the well being of him/her
2. Dedication means, from the time he/she is born, mom is there to breast feed, change clothes
3. Mom teaches the kid to read and write early
4. Mom makes sure Dad and kid have healthy food
5. Mom makes sure spiritual well being of the family
6. Thus Mom is the true leader of the house that keeps present safe while keeping an eye on the future

Now tell me if any of these things puts a Mom in a bad light or belittles her.

Please?

Well, there is the traditional religious view, exemplified by BZ, and there is the modern view. Which one do you want to discuss first? Is the mother an equal partner or not?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Well, there is the traditional religious view, exemplified by BZ, and there is the modern view. Which one do you want to discuss first? Is the mother an equal partner or not?

Look bhai,

Babies are made the same way as from the time of Amma Hawwa and Baba Adam.
Families are established and mom's leadership is the same way as from the time of Amma Hawwa and Baba Adam.

What is this modern vs. traditional fraud?

 

[VCheng]

Look bhai,

Babies are made the same way as from the time of Amma Hawwa and Baba Adam.
Families are established and mom's leadership is the same way as from the time of Amma Hawwa and Baba Adam.

What is this modern vs. traditional fraud?

Modern vs traditional: Is the woman an equal partner, or not?