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Shelling in Baramulla Kashmir by India

@Samrat420

I give a ff to the minus one. I repeat. For me, there are my parents and there is Allah. Period.

Now that we have the trivial out of the way ....

This is what I said:

"I've said this in an earlier post of mine, one if the earliest. Those Kashmiri not happy in India, should leave peacefully. To move to where they feel they would be happy. Relocate. Complete the last remaining mass move of partition.

But where I do not agree is open borders. And free movement. That is never going to be acceptable or workable. We are a long long way away from an Indian Schengen. If ever."


The above is my verbatim post. No changes. No paraphrasing.

Which part of it came across as "The guy was asking all Kashmiri's to leave their homes and migrate to other side of the LOC."???

@Emmie since you deleted my earlier post. Do join in. Or take a listen.

I'll tell you what actually happened. This gent got mauled after flying off his rocker unprovoked (a common occurrence from what I gather) on another thread. Then he was ignored. After being told that he was being ignored. Who needs the aggravation, right?

Now he's taking it out over here. How childish.

You don't give two hoots about a negative rating... That's fine. This is a Pakistani forum. Most of the Indians actually proudly wear negative ratings as a badge of honor here.

You say “Kashmiris who are not happy with India should leave". I ask you... Don't they have a right to be angry or unhappy with India? See bro... You can't ask people to pack off and leave simply because they don't like the policies of their govt. Its the collective responsibility of all of us to make them feel a part of India.

All Indians, including Kashmiris have a right to harbour dissent against the policies of India or against India herself. As long as they don't resort to violence, its all fine. That's why separatists like Geelani get personal security from Indian govt while the separatists like Wani get shot.

The migration of partition was a blunder of epic dimensions. Don't ask for it to be repeated.
 
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You don't give two hoots about a negative rating... That's fine. This is a Pakistani forum. Most of the Indians actually proudly wear negative ratings as a badge of honor here.

You say “Kashmiris who are not happy with India should leave". I ask you... Don't they have a right to be angry or unhappy with India? See bro... You can't ask people to pack off and leave simply because they don't like the policies of their govt. Its the collective responsibility of all of us to make them feel a part of India.

All Indians, including Kashmiris have a right to harbour dissent against the policies of India or against India herself. As long as they don't resort to violence, its all fine. That's why separatists like Geelani get personal security from Indian govt while the separatists like Wani get shot.

The migration of partition was a blunder of epic dimensions. Don't ask for it to be repeated.

Of course they have the right to be unhappy man. All of us are unhappy about something or the other. Do you start throwing acid bottle on the roads?

Do you pick up an AK47 and start killing your own people, funded by the enemy?

Do you put your kids in front of an angry mob, knowing the police are on the verge of even a lathi charge? Which parent in the world does that man? I have only heard of such stuff in the Israel Palestine conflict. It macabre. Period. Bacche hain yaar. Have a friggin heart.

Now if these guys have been unhappy for so long, they have options. The state is not going to budge. Pakistan is not going to do a whit to help them beyond money and silly speeches and sending the odd pig over. China has more sense than Pakistan.

So what do you want your kids to go through? Another 20 years of the same?

Move man. Find a place to immigrate to. Live in peace. Be happy. Get rid of the hated Passport.

No need to move to Pakistan. We are all agreed on how attractive that would be for them. But come on! Australia, Italy, Canada, France, Germany, Greece? All these countries take in oppressed political refugees seeking asylum. Kya problem hai?????
 
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No, It depends they want separate homeland, not under Indian oppression or Pakistan's control for that matter. Forcing people will only make the matter worse. We have seen how Indian soldiers have committed suicide after being in Kashmir region


Please post statistical data there of with an exhaustive study on the number of suicides overall and cause specific, and I mean a proper statistical analysis. Not merely incidents which get reflected due to occurring in Kashmir (for obvious reasons)

Maybe you can read here

http://www.asmgroup.edu.in/incon/E - JOURNAL INCON 2015/INCON-GM Vol1/INCN15_GM_11.pdf


http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.PDF

Its got more to do with evolving family structure, personal aspirations and a failure of matching personal aspirations to working environment/status in socio-economic order.

If you study the two studies, you will find the commonality.
 
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Of course they have the right to be unhappy man. All of us are unhappy about something or the other. Do you start throwing acid bottle on the roads?

Do you pick up an AK47 and start killing your own people, funded by the enemy?

Do you put your kids in front of an angry mob, knowing the police are on the verge of even a lathi charge? Which parent in the world does that man? I have only heard of such stuff in the Israel Palestine conflict. It macabre. Period. Bacche hain yaar. Have a friggin heart.

Now if these guys have been unhappy for so long, they have options. The state is not going to budge. Pakistan is not going to do a whit to help them beyond money and silly speeches and sending the odd pig over. China has more sense than Pakistan.

So what do you want your kids to go through? Another 20 years of the same?

Move man. Find a place to immigrate to. Live in peace. Be happy. Get rid of the hated Passport.

No need to move to Pakistan. We are all agreed on how attractive that would be for them. But come on! Australia, Italy, Canada, France, Germany, Greece? All these countries take in oppressed political refugees seeking asylum. Kya problem hai?????

The dudes throwing acid bottles on the road got their bodies sprayed with pellets...didn't they?

The dudes brandishing AK-47s got bullet holes in their heads...didn't they?

The fools who put their kids in the middle of a riot, now have their kids in hospitals...don't they?

As I said before, The gove and security agencies have a right to suppress violence by the use of violence (And they are doing so), but they do not have any right to ask the Kashmiris to pack off and move to Pakistan en-masse. This was what you were advocating.

Yes. They have been unhappy for quite a long time. And yes.. they do have options.. Peaceful protests, dharnas, strikes, hunger strikes et. etc are perfectly valid options for them.. Violence and terrorism isn't an option. We all know what happens to those who choose that path.
 
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Should I take you on trust? So far you have not let me down, or anybody else down. It is just that I am weary of sarcasm and venom disguised in polite guises, and really don't feel up to this any more.

Fair enough. Trust it is. No fool like an old fool, they say. Might as well prove them right.
My dear Joe I am stil waiting for your analysis on the social development done by India on its part to satisfy local Kashmir. You see an empty minds is devil's house. As I mentioned earlier, Pakistan cannot take development on its own, So I don't find any reason why they want to be part of us. Which the dont want to be. Now if you could post an article or maybe write one It would help us understand the reason of resentment

The Indian constitution calls them Indians
And the very same constitution also imposes the black law AFSPA, right ? has that law been ever applied to other parts of the country, ever?
 
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My dear Joe I am stil waiting for your analysis on the social development done by India on its part to satisfy local Kashmir. You see an empty minds is devil's house. As I mentioned earlier, Pakistan cannot take development on its own, So I don't find any reason why they want to be part of us. Which the dont want to be. Now if you could post an article or maybe write one It would help us understand the reason of resentment

It's ready; been ready a couple of days, actually. But I am hesitant to put it on line. This is a very sensitive time.


And the very same constitution also imposes the black law AFSPA, right ? has that law been ever applied to other parts of the country, ever?

It was drafted and legislated during the Naga uprising in the 50s, actually. It's in force, has been, in other states (four others at the moment) long before Kashmir. This act has to be invoked by the local government to come into effect.
 
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Thank you brother. Please, I am not trying to be difficult, but I must disagree again. But I'll back it up with a personal perspective rather than the broad sweeping brushes some here prefer to use.

My culture is Indian. My look is Indian. Anyone can spot me as an Indian anywhere. The way I dress, Indian. The way I carry what I dress in, Indian. The food I eat, if you leave out the pork and beef bit, but just the food types and preparations and masalas, Indian. The way I talk, so Indian. My values, Indian. My history and lineage, Indian. The soil of my ancestors, Indian.

You are making the argument that a person leave all of the above, and migrate to an alien country where the only common thread is that of my faith, which is not Indian. Or Dharmic, as you put it, which I protested to, as being ascribed to the land, because there are those on and of this land who are not Dharmic anymore. Have not been Dharmic for varying lengths of time.

You may well point out Pakistan. Which some may say offers a non-Dharmic like me ALL of the above + my non Dharmic, non Indian faith as well.

But this is where most non Muslim Indians today misunderstand most of us Muslim Indians who at different times in our lives have been made to feel like others in our own homeland.

Simply put, we are not Pakistanis. Not now. Not in 1947. Read into this simple statement what you will.

Yes I am not going to be dishonest. Not all among us think like me. Many Kashmiris for example. Some UPites. Some Biharis. Some Hyderabadis. Some Keralites. Many in certain ghettos of New Mumbai. Which is why I started off by saying let me share my personal perspective.

So no, I will not move to another country because some of my countrymen think I would be more "culturally" comfortable there. Hope that clarifies.

@User just so you know how I tick.
Let's agree to disagree here. I believe it is much better to live in India than say in a country filled with conspiracy theorists who don't hesitate in erasing the existence of minority beliefs. Yes I know it's not best, that is where we have to work. But i mthere more probability of a Laddakh citizen opting for India than say China or Pakistan being two other options. Wouldn't you agree? Please I am discussing in regards to J&K situation only(not generalising about other places in India or outside of India). Thank you.
 
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Dont you actually feel, as a person of reasonable intelligence would, that the mere fact that the Indian State is willing to allow mass gatherings and the protests to be covered on all major news and media channels, even apparently detrimental to Indian interests, that there is something fishy in Indian approach?

Unlike 1990s when we had banned access to media, we are quite open with all the protests and problems today, ever wondered why?



Yikes, are you guys even aware what @Joe Shearer is speaking about and what you all are assimilating and what you all are arguing against?

Let me point out few things before you carry on:

1. India and Pakistan were formed under Indian Independence Act of 1947.

2. J&K acceded to India vide Para 3(a) of said act. If Pakistanis challenge the accession, they may as well challenge the integration of Baluchistan, Sindh, Northern-Areas, Gilgit and NWFP .. indeed the basis of existence of Pakistan as a state.

3. When India was accepting the instrument of accession, India made plebiscite a condition for acceptance, there was no demand from Maharaja or the representative of the people in form of Sheikh Abdullah for a plebiscite.

4. The Princely states were allowed to give conditional accession, India accepted the conditions of accession which Maharaja gave, namely autonomy under Indian Union.

5. What that means, the Indian Constitution made the Union under Article 1 and inserted 1.1 wherein no Union has right to secede from the state in consonance with Para 3 (b) of Indian Independence Act of 1947.

6. Indian Constitution also affirmed its commitment to autonomy of the state as per its own acceptance of terms of accession as aforementioned in guise of passing a law - Article 370. These conditions were available to all princely states, who decided to waive them as per their wishes. So when Pakistan jumps on plebiscite, just ask them to first explain Baluchistan.

7. If you want to do away with a commitment to the state under Indian Constitution, the correct way for a Legal State like India is thorough the consensus of the people of the state - namely a bill being passed by J&K Assembly.

8. If you talk of unilateral withdrawal of the Article, you loose credibility of a legal state and become a banana republic.

9. Nagaland Accord is an example where in people who declared independence in 1947, were annexed by Indian state and now Modi himself signed the accord wherein autonomy has been granted within the Indian Union without boundary change. The same is also existing in J&K.

10. When ill informed and illogical posts like many members from India are posting here, spread, you give the initiative to the next door neighbour to actually justify the demand for a separate homeland which led to formation of Pakistan. That nation is still trying to justify to itself the validity especially after loosing Muslim majority Bangladesh, of its existence. By refusing to back down from our commitments as enshrined under Constitution of India, we uphold our own laws, and comprehensively reject the two nation theory. Its a bludy ideological war!

11. The Pakistanis have lost the diplomatic war over Kashmir. Analyse the support to them over Kashmir in 90s and today. But they instigate local protests and civil unrest. Militancy is way down. Armed forces rule supreme in LC environment save for one odd ingress due to topography and climatic conditions. There is hardly any presence of army inside valley in CI operations. All are in garrison/supply and tiered defence. CAPFs and J&K Police are the spearhead for any act of violence in valley proper - thereby showcasing the move away from an armed rebellion to a management of civil disorder and common criminality.

12. The narrative, my dear strategically-not-so-sound people, has been wrested away from Pakistan. We dictate the issue now.

13. Fighting a CI war is never about short term solutions. It takes time, give it 70 years (Naga issue took almost 69 years) maybe 100 ..... deal in a civil fashion now. Settle it amicably, with a moral stance rather than giving the neighbour a locus standii which it is itself trying to find.

14. And if you do a comparison of deaths in valley, it is still way less than Bihar and UP individually in terms of violent deaths. Because Indian media and people like you get charged up on misplaced nationalism, you loose the narrative and damage Indian position. It is a very sound tactic, you simply are still not matured to appreciate it. Ask the Pakistanis who curse their politicians on Kashmir issue and give example of Indian deftness and adroitness in diplomatic and political management at all international forums.

Thanks

@Moonlight: Certainly not any artillery firing. Sounds more like Type 90 grenade being burst in a barrel ..... it is only a practice grenade with no shrapnel .... lol
Sorry couldn't keep pace with your points as already tired after hectic work today. However in layman terms which I am for sure, these many thoughts and counter thoughts led us here. There is no solution in near future neither anyone has a even single percent idea of how solve it. Fact of matter is Kashmir is drain for us. What you are suggesting is a gamble, it can be in favor of us or it can go against us. What I am really interested in knowing is that is there anyone out there who has the guts to call all the bluffs in air and close this chapter. Has any one? I don't think so. When people become so selfish that they ignore other citizens or if establishment ignores the plight of lakhs of soldiers, I don't think the Kashmir deserves what we are giving them. And yes it's emotionally charged or something near to it, it's pure logic. Thank you.

I don't know what point @RISING SUN was trying to make. There isn't any logic in it. I applaud your point #10; it sums up the whole issue. Your points #5 and #6 are a treat to read; I don't know yet who you are but am already a fan. I disagree, however, with #7. This is why.

If you read the terms of #370 carefully, it mentions that the President may abrogate this article, with the consent of the Constituent Assembly of Jammu and Kashmir. That Constituent Assembly was sui generis, unique of its kind, drawing its legality and power from the sovereign authority of the Maharaja, which was untramelled then except for his cession of the power to conduct defence, foreign affairs and communications to the Dominion of India, which is something that you have articulated very well several times. So it could not pass on its own powers to any other body, certainly not its own constitution-making or constitution-amending or constitution-ratifying powers. It could only frame a constitution, for acceptable by the Maharaja as the sovereign, which it did. It then took what Noorani describes as the 'quaint' step of dismissing itself, rather than the usual practice of adjourning sine die.

This means that without the Maharaja's invocation of such an assembly, it can never be reconvened.

The Maharaja accepted the Constitution of J&K in 1958. With that, he effectively extinguished his own sovereign powers and to the extent of the Constitution and its powers, that became the repository of the sovereignty other than the three ceded to the Union of India.

You have said that the Assembly might be a body that might agree to address #370. I am not so sure. It is not the Constituent Assembly, and the Indian Constitutional provision DID NOT mention any successor body. It is as if you are featured in a legal document, and the wording says, "hellfire", rather than "hellfire, which term shall include his heirs and assigns". That limited wording excludes your heirs and assigns. Similarly the limited wording of the Indian Article excludes any body other than the original Constituent Assembly of J&K from recommending abrogation. It can never be done.
Sir I am trying to say the same thing since morning that India itself shot in its foot by loosing the right to amend the mentioned article. Because of this we can't make remaining J&K as other normal ruled states. So we are stuck in the middle, bother we can change anything, not can we leave that land due to reasons known to everybody. And extremists are perfectly using this point to their best. That is the only point i am trying to make that its frustrating to be stuck like this. Wouldn't you agree?
 
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Very well.. Then stop sending these “goats" across the LOC and India wouldn't be able to make them “scapegoats" to justify “human rights violations". Sounds a good idea...No?
Only problem is they werent from this side in the first place you just kill innocents and called then infiltrators
 
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Only problem is they werent from this side in the first place you just kill innocents and called then infiltrators
your post above is a rant. i may have believed it had it not been for own witnessing of ingress from across LC.

It's ready; been ready a couple of days, actually. But I am hesitant to put it on line. This is a very sensitive time.

You must bring it online. I would love to add a bit .. if can, which, seeing your posts, will be hard ..
 
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