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Shelling in Baramulla Kashmir by India

Sorry couldn't keep pace with your points as already tired after hectic work today. However in layman terms which I am for sure, these many thoughts and counter thoughts led us here. There is no solution in near future neither anyone has a even single percent idea of how solve it. Fact of matter is Kashmir is drain for us. What you are suggesting is a gamble, it can be in favor of us or it can go against us. What I am really interested in knowing is that is there anyone out there who has the guts to call all the bluffs in air and close this chapter. Has any one? I don't think so. When people become so selfish that they ignore other citizens or if establishment ignores the plight of lakhs of soldiers, I don't think the Kashmir deserves what we are giving them. And yes it's emotionally charged or something near to it, it's pure logic. Thank you.


Sir I am trying to say the same thing since morning that India itself shot in its foot by loosing the right to amend the mentioned article. Because of this we can't make remaining J&K as other normal ruled states. So we are stuck in the middle, bother we can change anything, not can we leave that land due to reasons known to everybody. And extremists are perfectly using this point to their best. That is the only point i am trying to make that its frustrating to be stuck like this. Wouldn't you agree?

No I wouldn't.

How did we shoot ourselves in the foot by loosing (sic) the right to amend the mentioned article? What did we do? It was the Kashmiri Constituent Assembly, unaware of the grave implications of not recommending the abrogation of the article to the Indian President, that was responsible for this accidental state of affairs.

And how are extremists using 'this point' to their best? What does that sentence mean?

There are too many woolly misconceptions to understand what you object to.
  • Is it to the very presence of Article 370, in the first place?
  • Is it to its planned use to debar interference with the Maharaja's wishes to leave his residual sovereignty to his people?
  • Is it the fettering of the Indian state's freedom to interfere?
  • Is it the frustration of the present political establishment in not being able to swamp the valley with immigrants?
What is it exactly that you find objectionable?

your post above is a rant. i may have believed it had it not been for own witnessing of ingress from across LC.



You must bring it online. I would love to add a bit .. if can, which, seeing your posts, will be hard ..

I don't know.

I've taken enough shit from enough shitty people to want to do this on a daily basis. The worst is their clueless arguing from premises based on pure prejudice.

Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

As a Pakistani commentator put it, we can feel as terrible as we want, we can't do a - yes, that word again - shit about it.
 
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I don't know.

I've taken enough shit from enough shitty people to want to do this on a daily basis. The worst is their clueless arguing from premises based on pure prejudice.

Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

As a Pakistani commentator put it, we can feel as terrible as we want, we can't do a - yes, that word again - shit about it.

Sir, one of the reason for my post to @RISING SUN was exactly that. I said so to @WAJsal .....

https://defence.pk/threads/whatever.46703/page-4310#post-8519757

Anyways, if you decide to pen in .. please do tag me.

Am always looking forward to insights of someone as erudite and eloquent as you.

I, in fact, mentioned your insights to my co-workers too .....!!! And quite a few of them got around to the same perspective
 
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No I wouldn't.

How did we shoot ourselves in the foot by loosing (sic) the right to amend the mentioned article? What did we do? It was the Kashmiri Constituent Assembly, unaware of the grave implications of not recommending the abrogation of the article to the Indian President, that was responsible for this accidental state of affairs.

And how are extremists using 'this point' to their best? What does that sentence mean?

There are too many woolly misconceptions to understand what you object to.
  • Is it to the very presence of Article 370, in the first place?
  • Is it to its planned use to debar interference with the Maharaja's wishes to leave his residual sovereignty to his people?
  • Is it the fettering of the Indian state's freedom to interfere?
  • Is it the frustration of the present political establishment in not being able to swamp the valley with immigrants?
What is it exactly that you find objectionable?



I don't know.

I've taken enough shit from enough shitty people to want to do this on a daily basis. The worst is their clueless arguing from premises based on pure prejudice.

Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

As a Pakistani commentator put it, we can feel as terrible as we want, we can't do a - yes, that word again - shit about it.
Sir I am not much knowledgeable but I hold a common thought that how did we get stuck in that hell hole. We can't feel Kashmir J&K is our place, we can't leave it for the fear of extremists run-over. What should we do?
 
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Sir I am not much knowledgeable but I hold a common thought that how did we get stuck in that hell hole. We can't feel Kashmir J&K is our place, we can't leave it for the fear of extremists run-over. What should we do?

What @Joe Shearer is trying to portray, and quite a few of us actually agree with his point of view is, that rabid nationalism is never an answer to win a counter-insurgency operation, because in Indian scenario, it is increasingly along a path of similar societal fractures, as were beginning to appear in 1920s to 30s.

India is unique wherein we have fought 4 major counter insurgencies till date and one is ongoing. Starting from Naga to ULFA to Sri Lanka to Punjab, we have evolved our CI operations.

Whereas till 1960s we used to follow the practice of mass attacks and use of artillery and air power against our own population, it has undergone a radical shift in thinking subsequently , with the aim being to protect 'our population' from 'our misguided citizens' who 'took up arms against us'.

Any CI operation is around 90% sociological, political and economical, somewhat ideological, and around 10% only military. You can win militarily (as in Vietnam) yet loose the political aspects and hence loose over all. Majority of a population in a CI territory, is the neutral civilian who wants to ensure his/her safety, security and survival. His/Her actions are totally meant to ensure the same.

You have to look at Kashmir (indeed any area afflicted by armed struggle) in these aspects. When Indians, the media and now increasingly I would also label them as so called 'nationalists' tell that the complete population is traitorous, it beats logic, alienates people caught in a hard place with no option but to play along for survival and amounts to a deliberate act to weaken the resolve of the government and the nation in such an undertaking. That, as per me, is unacceptable.

And before you start off with soldier's perspective, understand that the soldier is equally bewildered today, he is asked to protect the same people who he is asked to suppress the next day. What a conundrum!!!

Something you might want to read. Indeed, all the radical 'remove article 370' members are requested to go through this fine appreciation of the tenets of Indian Counter Insurgency Doctrine. An extract:


India’s experience with counterinsurgency began in the early 1950’s in the northeastern portion of the country. The government in New Delhi fought separatists from the ethnic Naga population. Unhappy with the borders created by the end of British rule in 1947, the Naga tribes hoped to form an autonomous state separate from the Indian Union. New Delhi refused to grant the region autonomy and a violent uprising began. The Naga rebellion created elements of counterinsurgency doctrine for the Indian army, a doctrine largely unchanged until the 1980s. The Indian Army developed their approach by studying Mao Zedong’s theory of insurgent warfare, and the British theory of counterinsurgency drawn from the experience in Malaya. The Indian Army took the primacy of isolating the insurgents and maintaining control of the population as the most valuable lesson from the British.

The Naga’s hit-and-run guerilla attacks caused the Indian Army to utilize large-unit operations. Since quick fights with insurgents did not allow support to reach a unit in contact, the Indian Army began only sending units on patrol durable enough to sustain a fight with guerillas on their own. This led to the practice of keeping most operations at company-level units or larger.This practice, however, made it harder for the larger Indian units to keep up with the small groups of Naga fighters in the jungles of northeastern India.




The Indian Army also learned lessons about the political aspects of counterinsurgency while fighting the Naga rebels. The Army revised its perception of the insurgents, no longer viewing guerillas as enemies to be found and killed, but as fellow countryman. This placed a higher value on the political aspects of counterinsurgency, and on convincing the insurgent fighters to support the government. The army’s new perception meant that military force should be used only when absolutely required. The operational effect was that the army began to minimize the use of heavy weapons, such as artillery and close air support. The Indian Army also renounced older traditions from the British colonial rule, like punitive expeditions. Even in the 1950’s the Indian Army Chief of Staff vocalized the population-centric approach with guidance to troops deploying to Naga regions:

"You must remember that all of the people in the area in which you are operating are fellow Indians. They may have different religions, may pursue a different way of life, but they are Indians and that very fact, that they are different and yet part of India is a reflection of India’s greatness. Some of these people are misguided and have taken to arms against their own people, and are disrupting the peace of this area. You are to protect the mass of people from these disruptive elements. You are not there to fight the people in the area, but to protect them. You are fighting only those who threaten the people and who are a danger to the lives and properties of the people. You must do therefore everything possible to win their confidence and respect and to help them feel they belong to India."

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a606326.pdf

This is the work of Maj Daniel G. Hodermarsky. He is off on quote a few accounts (most prominently claiming Indira Gandhi as PM in 1990!!!!) but am quoting him for the above text only.

I am sure, that many of our keyboard warriors would disagree with the assessment above. It does not matter, it is the collective wisdom of the Indian Army that matters, the collective wisdom (or lack thereof) of the polity which matters. All actions must and should ALWAYS be in consonance with our guiding principles as a nation and our Constitution as a law.

http://indianstrategicknowledgeonline.com/web/doctrine sub conv w.pdf

The above link shall help you understand our approach to CI operations from a military point of view.


 
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As quoted; I took account of the Shia population as well.

First even if population is less, still why should it be ignored
I understand your point; but to me - I believe that 3-4 Lakh is very irrelevant; and would represent about 2% of the votes which would be tri-equally divided between independence, India or Pakistan.

What I understand from my personal discussion with some Kashmiri and some Jammu young professionals people that population in leh Laddakh region is shia based which most of the time stand against some Sunni extremists from valley.
So I believe they will most probably go for either independence or with India being minority in leh Laddakh region.
Yes you are correct. Shias are against independence but not necessarily against joining Pakistan. Currently under Indian rule they are void of many religious rights that Sunnis in the region enjoy. They are not even allowed to perform Shia holy events such as Muharram.

Their situation wouldn't change whether they go for independence or remain with India. However under Pakistan they are allowed to perform/attend Shia celebrations,rites,rituals and ect...

I have some Shia relatives in Indian J&K who stress this a lot.
Plus I believe they number around 30-35%.
14%
Next qeury which region more to Pakistan than India, obviously we all know Yaar that is Kashmir valley only right.
Yes, Kashmir and some parts of Jammu and Ladakh.
 
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What @Joe Shearer is trying to portray, and quite a few of us actually agree with his point of view is, that rabid nationalism is never an answer to win a counter-insurgency operation, because in Indian scenario, it is increasingly along a path of similar societal fractures, as were beginning to appear in 1920s to 30s.

India is unique wherein we have fought 4 major counter insurgencies till date and one is ongoing. Starting from Naga to ULFA to Sri Lanka to Punjab, we have evolved our CI operations.

Whereas till 1960s we used to follow the practice of mass attacks and use of artillery and air power against our own population, it has undergone a radical shift in thinking subsequently , with the aim being to protect 'our population' from 'our misguided citizens' who 'took up arms against us'.

Any CI operation is around 90% sociological, political and economical, somewhat ideological, and around 10% only military. You can win militarily (as in Vietnam) yet loose the political aspects and hence loose over all. Majority of a population in a CI territory, is the neutral civilian who wants to ensure his/her safety, security and survival. His/Her actions are totally meant to ensure the same.

You have to look at Kashmir (indeed any area afflicted by armed struggle) in these aspects. When Indians, the media and now increasingly I would also label them as so called 'nationalists' tell that the complete population is traitorous, it beats logic, alienates people caught in a hard place with no option but to play along for survival and amounts to a deliberate act to weaken the resolve of the government and the nation in such an undertaking. That, as per me, is unacceptable.

And before you start off with soldier's perspective, understand that the soldier is equally bewildered today, he is asked to protect the same people who he is asked to suppress the next day. What a conundrum!!!

Something you might want to read. Indeed, all the radical 'remove article 370' members are requested to go through this fine appreciation of the tenets of Indian Counter Insurgency Doctrine. An extract:


India’s experience with counterinsurgency began in the early 1950’s in the northeastern portion of the country. The government in New Delhi fought separatists from the ethnic Naga population. Unhappy with the borders created by the end of British rule in 1947, the Naga tribes hoped to form an autonomous state separate from the Indian Union. New Delhi refused to grant the region autonomy and a violent uprising began. The Naga rebellion created elements of counterinsurgency doctrine for the Indian army, a doctrine largely unchanged until the 1980s. The Indian Army developed their approach by studying Mao Zedong’s theory of insurgent warfare, and the British theory of counterinsurgency drawn from the experience in Malaya. The Indian Army took the primacy of isolating the insurgents and maintaining control of the population as the most valuable lesson from the British.

The Naga’s hit-and-run guerilla attacks caused the Indian Army to utilize large-unit operations. Since quick fights with insurgents did not allow support to reach a unit in contact, the Indian Army began only sending units on patrol durable enough to sustain a fight with guerillas on their own. This led to the practice of keeping most operations at company-level units or larger.This practice, however, made it harder for the larger Indian units to keep up with the small groups of Naga fighters in the jungles of northeastern India.




The Indian Army also learned lessons about the political aspects of counterinsurgency while fighting the Naga rebels. The Army revised its perception of the insurgents, no longer viewing guerillas as enemies to be found and killed, but as fellow countryman. This placed a higher value on the political aspects of counterinsurgency, and on convincing the insurgent fighters to support the government. The army’s new perception meant that military force should be used only when absolutely required. The operational effect was that the army began to minimize the use of heavy weapons, such as artillery and close air support. The Indian Army also renounced older traditions from the British colonial rule, like punitive expeditions. Even in the 1950’s the Indian Army Chief of Staff vocalized the population-centric approach with guidance to troops deploying to Naga regions:

"You must remember that all of the people in the area in which you are operating are fellow Indians. They may have different religions, may pursue a different way of life, but they are Indians and that very fact, that they are different and yet part of India is a reflection of India’s greatness. Some of these people are misguided and have taken to arms against their own people, and are disrupting the peace of this area. You are to protect the mass of people from these disruptive elements. You are not there to fight the people in the area, but to protect them. You are fighting only those who threaten the people and who are a danger to the lives and properties of the people. You must do therefore everything possible to win their confidence and respect and to help them feel they belong to India."

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a606326.pdf

This is the work of Maj Daniel G. Hodermarsky. He is off on quote a few accounts (most prominently claiming Indira Gandhi as PM in 1990!!!!) but am quoting him for the above text only.

I am sure, that many of our keyboard warriors would disagree with the assessment above. It does not matter, it is the collective wisdom of the Indian Army that matters, the collective wisdom (or lack thereof) of the polity which matters. All actions must and should ALWAYS be in consonance with our guiding principles as a nation and our Constitution as a law.

http://indianstrategicknowledgeonline.com/web/doctrine sub conv w.pdf

The above link shall help you understand our approach to CI operations from a military point of view.
I don't have the first hand experience of other three but as my brother is deployed in NE, I know very well it's worse over there, though our main media know nothing about there being far from powerhouse of country. Further please don't brush everybody with same rabid nationalism. Yes there are many but not all. I might be more in sync with Bjp policy but I am not blind to their blunders also.

As quoted; I took account of the Shia population as well.


I understand your point; but to me - I believe that 3-4 Lakh is very irrelevant; and would represent about 2% of the votes which would be tri-equally divided between independence, India or Pakistan.



Yes you are correct. Shias are against independence but not necessarily against joining Pakistan. Currently under Indian rule they are void of many religious rights that Sunnis in the region enjoy. They are not even allowed to perform Shia holy events such as Muharram.

Their situation wouldn't change whether they go for independence or remain with India. However under Pakistan they are allowed to perform/attend Shia celebrations,rites,rituals and ect...

I have some Shia relatives in Indian J&K who stress this a lot.

14%

Yes, Kashmir and some parts of Jammu and Ladakh.
Sorry but I don't think Laddakhi people go with people, please have a look into their political, social and economical outlook. You will get the hint. And please Indian Constitution doesn't favor anyone. Everybody is free to worship their God. I would however say Shias have been oppressed in valley for so long. They are the only dependable informer in our CI ops. So I don't think they would like to stay with those who opress their way of practicing faith/belief. And yes Shias do the chehhalum, fatiha, duakhwani, possession on the road freely in mainland. Only in Kashmir they are unable to do it due to Sunni extremists imposing their their way of practiciequallyh. Wouldn't you agree? And for the record my best friend is a Sunni living in Riyadh (we studied together) and colleague from shia faith is equally dependable friend. In my native place I have many friends including a person so faithful that we consider him part of famills I said 35 % on shia faith people living in Laddakh area. And how come jammu & laddakh is near to Pakistani mainland compared to Indian mainland??? Please explain.
 
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@hellfire thanks for the explanation brother.

Do you think our troops were shelling our people in Baramulla ?

And @RISING SUN brother. No one is going with anyone anywhere.

Those who do not like India and what it represents are always free to pack up and leave.

Especially the older embittered lot who're way past their sell by date, don't contribute a whit, and only spread poison in the minds of youngsters.
 
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@hellfire thanks for the explanation brother.

Do you think our troops were shelling our people in Baramulla ?

Already answered to the member who started the thread, threads like these are more of flame thread, meant to spread more inaccuracies. I am yet to see 'heavy handedness' by Indian Army in dealing with anything in J&K or for that matter in any other insurgency, hence why I posted our doctrine above.

The claims of heavy handedness come true only when there is a requirement of enforcement of prohibitionary orders. As occurred recently in Kashmir.

In all such incidents, one must realise that the deployment of force in calibrated measure is undertaken, and employment of extreme means is only done under orders of the local District Magistrate (it is embedded in our SOPs and law - both civil and Army Act) who is acting always on political orders. The antics of Mehbooba Mufti on SFs being asked to show restraint are precisely that - antics. And all such force deployment is guided and under control of our existing laws and legislations. We never use large calibre or lethal force until and unless the risk to life of either non-participating members/vital installations or the Police/CAPF personnel themselves is appreciated. In the recent events, the crowd turned violent and attacked security personnel, hence the use of pellets in act of self defence is justified. (although there is another grudge that we need the CAPFs and Police to be better trained and equipped by more non-lethal yet effective measures so that loss of lives and/or disabilities can be avoided; again something where politicians have to take a decision to invest in better technology to ensure lives are protected on either side and aim achieved of crowd management).

You can always compare the CI ops run by India and others including our neighbour.

@RISING SUN you are not being brushed by anything. That is why you are being tagged and addressed. It is stupid and downright frustrating to engage those who JOE SHEARER tags as bhakts, Had you been one of those, you would have been ignored, majority end up proving themselves bereft of any knowledge anyways. They have only one mantra for things - send all to Pakistan, remove Article 370. But ask them to justify, they just loose it.

Since you mention that your brother is in NE, may I suggest that you ask him the amount of autonomy granted the states (assuming he is in Nagaland-Manipur) under clause with NSCN-IM. You can ask him about the effective 'governance' being done by NSCN-IM and their being allowed the same in the area. That is what the whole thing is about - the right of J&K to autonomy as granted by Indian State and the protection to same in order to ensure peace in the state. It has nothing to do with military - all to do with political solution, something we are not seeing on ground.

Also do read up the recent accord Modi signed with Nagas granting them greater autonomy. Extrapolate it to undertakings India gave in J&K. You will get what is being said.
 
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Already answered to the member who started the thread, threads like these are more of flame thread, meant to spread more inaccuracies. I am yet to see 'heavy handedness' by Indian Army in dealing with anything in J&K or for that matter in any other insurgency, hence why I posted our doctrine above.

The claims of heavy handedness come true only when there is a requirement of enforcement of prohibitionary orders. As occurred recently in Kashmir.

In all such incidents, one must realise that the deployment of force in calibrated measure is undertaken, and employment of extreme means is only done under orders of the local District Magistrate (it is embedded in our SOPs and law - both civil and Army Act) who is acting always on political orders. The antics of Mehbooba Mufti on SFs being asked to show restraint are precisely that - antics. And all such force deployment is guided and under control of our existing laws and legislations. We never use large calibre or lethal force until and unless the risk to life of either non-participating members/vital installations or the Police/CAPF personnel themselves is appreciated. In the recent events, the crowd turned violent and attacked security personnel, hence the use of pellets in act of self defence is justified. (although there is another grudge that we need the CAPFs and Police to be better trained and equipped by more non-lethal yet effective measures so that loss of lives and/or disabilities can be avoided; again something where politicians have to take a decision to invest in better technology to ensure lives are protected on either side and aim achieved of crowd management).

You can always compare the CI ops run by India and others including our neighbour.

@RISING SUN you are not being brushed by anything. That is why you are being tagged and addressed. It is stupid and downright frustrating to engage those who JOE SHEARER tags as bhakts, Had you been one of those, you would have been ignored, majority end up proving themselves bereft of any knowledge anyways. They have only one mantra for things - send all to Pakistan, remove Article 370. But ask them to justify, they just loose it.

Since you mention that your brother is in NE, may I suggest that you ask him the amount of autonomy granted the states (assuming he is in Nagaland-Manipur) under clause with NSCN-IM. You can ask him about the effective 'governance' being done by NSCN-IM and their being allowed the same in the area. That is what the whole thing is about - the right of J&K to autonomy as granted by Indian State and the protection to same in order to ensure peace in the state. It has nothing to do with military - all to do with political solution, something we are not seeing on ground.

Also do read up the recent accord Modi signed with Nagas granting them greater autonomy. Extrapolate it to undertakings India gave in J&K. You will get what is being said.
I had asked the very same question some three years back but response very negative. Will ask again.
 
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Yes you are correct. Shias are against independence but not necessarily against joining Pakistan. Currently under Indian rule they are void of many religious rights that Sunnis in the region enjoy. They are not even allowed to perform Shia holy events such as Muharram.

Their situation wouldn't change whether they go for independence or remain with India. However under Pakistan they are allowed to perform/attend Shia celebrations,rites,rituals and ect...
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Firstly, they are, as a majority against joining Pakistan. Cutting across beliefs, majority would vote independence, followed by India and then Pakistan (the latter two being in significant minority).

Secondly, it is the act of J&K Government to ban it. Read the powers of the state government - Kashmiris themselves are responsible for ban. Its more to do with banning large congregation - for reasons which may sound bizarre but have rationale on a possible sectarian twist to issues in Kashmir, especially in light of wahabi funding to mosques and madrasas there, which is trying to erode the sufi nature of Kashmiri society.

Thirdly, they perform in small congregations, please google. Shias are the most peaceful of people there, with significant influence of Iran in favour of India ensuring that.

Thanks
 
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Its more to do with banning large congregation - for reasons which may sound bizarre but have rationale on a possible sectarian twist to issues in Kashmir, especially in light of wahabi funding to mosques and madrasas there, which is trying to erode the sufi nature of Kashmiri society.

It is already too late ; they have all become radicalised

Radicalisation is the only way for them to sustain this war

The new recruits are all hard core Islamists

That Sufi nature that you are talking about is all in the past
 
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It is already too late ; they have all become radicalised

Radicalisation is the only way for them to sustain this war

The new recruits are all hard core Islamists

That Sufi nature that you are talking about is all in the past

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

Answered point to point. You don't read anything other than what you find compatible with your view at that particular point of time. I corrected your post in another thread on deployment of Mirage 2000s in a particular operation. If I can do it with a single operation conducted more than a decade back, then I can assure you that I can tell you that you are incorrect in all your assessment above. You must first go and visit Kashmir, spend time there on either side, on streets and in law enforcement/CI operations, then you will have a better understanding.
 
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Thanks. They come from grass roots, on the ground, doing the job no one likes to know about or hear about. So yes, I may be deluded .... but then that is I.

No offence meant ; I still respect you ; just that I do not agree with you

We can wait to see how things unfold in the future
 
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