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Secularists should 'mend ways or leave country', says PTI lawmaker

Lol, what does this post prove at all?

That there were differences between Ch. Rehmat Ali and M.A Jinnah?

You've written pure fluff with no meaning. Just gave useless "references" to feel intellectual without actually driving your point home.

My point was that throughout Pakistan movement pre-partition, Pakistan was envisioned as an Islamic country to be made in India, NOT a secular country.

Pakistani founding documents (Pakistan Resolution, our first Constitution, and Objective Resolution etc) ALL imagined and declared Pakistan as an Islamic state.

Your premise that Pakistan was made as an secular country literally has no validity in history. Not even one document mentioned Pakistan's secular nature...pre and post partition. The masses who struggled for Pakistan did not saw themselves fighting for a secular Republic like Germany---but an Islamic country in subcontinent. "Pakistan ka mtlab kya? La Ilaha Il Allah" became a mainstream slogan for Muslims of subcontinent struggling for their own independent nation-state in the region. You think they had 'secularism' in mind as they raised these slogans and campaign for the creation of Pakistan?

As I said, you can fool yourself--but please don't try to fool the audience.

Founding Father's imagination of Pakistan

Allama Iqbal:

Allama Muhammad Iqbal in 1937, in a letter to Jinnah wrote, "After a long and careful study of Islamic Law I have come to the conclusion that if this system of Law is properly understood and applied, at last the right to subsistence is secured to every body. But the enforcement and development of the Shariat of Islam is impossible in this country without a free Muslim state or states. This has been my honest conviction for many years and I still believe this to be the only way to solve the problem of bread for Muslims as well as to secure a peaceful India.

(Source: Iqbal's letters to Jinnah: Columbia University Press)

Muhammad Ali Jinnah:

"Pakistan is the premier Islamic State and the fifth largest in the world
. . . The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of men, justice and fair-play to everybody.’’

(Source: Radio Broadcast to the People of the United States of America, February 1948)

"You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil.” (Quaid-e-Azam)

Furthermore, Liaquat Ali Khan, Pakistan's first prime minister, introduced "Objective's Resolution" in Pakistan's assembley in 1949. Same Objective Resolution that declared Pakistan to be a state based on Islam.

These are just few examples, if you study Pakistan movement in detail---it becomes clear that Pakistan was destined to be an Islamic country based in the ideals of Islam.

There is absolutely zero evidence that Pakistan's founders wanted it to be a secular country. Please stop lying through your teeth and quoting irrelevant material out of context.

You can argue that we have failed to produce a just and examplery Islamic Republic that M.A Jinnah wanted us to...that's a totally valid argument. But to say that Pakistan was not supposed to be an Islamic state but a secular Republic is nothing but pure mythology.

Good... Now you know that "Now or Never" was not the founding document of Pakistan, nor was Ch. Rahmat Ali Pakistan's founding father. Similarly, neither 1949 Objectives Resolution, nor 1956 Constitution was drafted by our founding father.

As For the Objectives Resolution:

1) The resolution was debated for five days.

Hindu members of the Constitutional Assembly argued that the Objectives Resolution differed with Jinnah's view in all the basic points.

Sris Chandra Chattopadhyaya said: "What I hear in this (Objectives) Resolution is not the voice of the great creator of Pakistan - the Quaid-i-Azam, nor even that of the Prime Minister of Pakistan the Honorable Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, but of the Ulema of the land." [ Constituent Assembly debate March 12, 1949]

Birat Chandra Mandal declared that Jinnah had "unequivocally said that Pakistan will be a secular state." [ Constituent Assembly debate March 9, 1949]

Bhupendra Kumar Datta went a step further: ...were this resolution to come before this house within the life-time of the Great Creator of Pakistan, the Quaid-i-Azam, it would not have come in its present shape...." [ Constituent Assembly debates March 8, 1949]





2) According to Muhammad Munir, the Chief Justice of the Federal Court, the terms of the Objectives Resolution differ in all the basic points of the Quaid-i-Azam's views e.g:

a). The Quaid-i-Azam has said that in the new state sovereignty would rest with the people. The Resolution starts with the statement that sovereignty rests with Allah. This concept negates the basic idea of modern democracy that there are no limits on the legislative power of a representative assembly.

b). There is a reference to the protection of the minorities of their right to worship and practice their religion, whereas the Quaid-i-Azam had stated that there would be no minorities on the basis of religion.

c) The distinction between religious majorities and minorities takes away from the minority, the right of equality, which again is a basic idea of modern democracy.

d) The provision relating to Muslims being enabled to lead their life according to Islam is opposed to the conception of a secular state.



3) The Ulema themselves claimed that the Quaid-i-Azam's conception of a modern national state....became obsoletewith the passing of the Objectives Resolution on 12th March 1949. (Munir Report p-203)



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So, The Non Muslims in the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, The Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Ulema of Pakistan (all of them) admitted that The Objectives Resolution was against the vision of Muhammad Ali Jinnah.


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Now coming to your second point,


Jinnah was absolutely clear on what he was doing ... :

1) Jinnah wanted a state where every one would be "equal citizen of the state" irrespective of religion, caste,ethnicity etc.. where religion would be a "personal matter" and not the "business of the state" (In Jinnah's own words)... Jinnah strongly disapproved of the idea of having a theocratic or "Islamic" state .. (which we are today ,.. unfortunately..)

2) Jinnah (and Iqbal too) believed that this kind of separation of church from state (i.e secularism) was perfectly "Islamic" ... and that Islam in its true spirit was purely "democratic" ... Both these ideas were rejected by the orthodox Muslims .. While Democracy has been accepted by the majority of Muslisms today, "accepting secularism" may take another few decades ...

3) Jinnah and conservatives/Mullahs were diametrically opposed in their interpretation of Islam ... What Jinnah and Iqbal believed was the "true spirit" of Islam, that was considered "Kufr" and "Shirk" by the Mullahs ....

4) Today conservatives claim that Jinnah wanted an "Islamic Pakistan" and to prove their point they quote speeches/interviews of Jinnah where he has talked about Islam, but then they very conveniently replace Jinnah`s definition of Islam with Mullah`s definition of Islam (which is opposite to Jinnah`s def.) ... The result is that one gets an impression that either Jinnah was confused and had no clear vision OR he was a hypocrite who wanted a secular constitution but talked about Islam (supposedly anti secular) .... Truth is, the only hypocrites are the Mullahs and the conservatives ... Jinnah and Iqbal had a clear vision .... A progressive and modern Pakistan based on "reinterpretation" of Islamic teachings .... Secular and Democratic .. Secularism and democracy that would not be western but Islamic ... !!!

Dr. Javed Iqbal (Allama Iqbal`s son) explains this in the following words ...... it is self-evident that there is complete harmony in the views of Quaid-i-Azam and Allama Iqbal regarding the establishment of a modern Islamic democratic welfare state in Pakistan. The founders of Pakistan certainly had a very clear vision. They approved of a definite interpretation of Islam on which they founded Pakistan, and according to them, it was only through that interpretation that the Muslims could possibly realize their objectives in the newly created Muslim state.
 
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Eagle sahib,

How do liberals and liberal extremists damage peace? Do they blow up folks, including by-standers? Do they threaten their opponents to leave the country (like some extremists in India do)? What precisely do they do?

Regards
 
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@Hell hound what do you really think being a secular or liberal IS?
Frankly, though being "in-fashion" a vast majority of our secular are more extreme in there views that the extremists!! Only as bad as the worst kind of so-called Mullahs out there!! :lol: And not just OURS,, i have seen liberals and secular from different parts of the world being worst than the the group we have conveniently labeled "extremists"!!

@The Sandman @django @Zibago what do YOU people have to say about this?

@WAJsal @Moonlight @The Eagle ???
mate this is my definition of a true liberal
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/what-does-being-a-liberal-means.477426/
 
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Secular and liberal toads claim
- Iqbal was secular
- Jinnah was secular
- Prophet S.A.W was liberal :astagh:

All were Muslim! None secular nor liberal.

Islam is Islam and a Muslim is a Muslim. That is all. There is no secular Islam / liberal Islam and no secular Muslim / liberal Muslim.

Islam pre-dates man made secularism and liberalism.

Those who claim to be secular &/or liberal Muslim, such toads are only doing so to justify their opinions and actions that are against the commands of Allah.

If you are a Muslim, do not classify Islam by some man made concept. And do not pay attention to the teachings of current day Muftis and whatnot.

Things like keeping beard doesn't make one a good Muslim, and clean shave and keeping pet dogs doesn't make one secular/Liberal either! Get off this rediculous stereotyping!

It seems you confused lot are focusing too much on the Ulema Su. Use your mind and develop an understanding of Islam without all bias and on your own. Stop your obsession with molvis and the Muftis dressed in robes and whatnot. Those are selling Islam for their gains. Do not listen to anyone preaching Islam for their own gain.

Secular/liberal toads get energy from the current day Muftis/molvis. All have gone off track. It is tit for tat and nothing productive is going to come out of it.

Again, there is no such thing as Secular Muslim and Liberal Muslim.

@Azlan Haider @AUz @Hell hound @Fallen King @Zibago @The Eagle
 
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In Pakistan anti nationals are labelled as liberals while blood thirsty Mullahsaurases are labelled as conservatives we are not a nation of moderates but extremes
Not just anti nationals, anti-religions also hide behind that title of being liberals whereas in reality they are any extremists as the so called Mullahs that are labeled as extremists anyway. We have some cultural and religious values that we have to follow to remain a NATION and not bunch of individuals. Going against those national values and interests do not make one the supposedly trendy "liberal" or "secular" but simple an anti-nationalist!! Something that people almost always fail to realize.

What we need are moderate patriotic Pakistani people, who may be good sensible Muslims (as many think that you can be either a Muslim or a Liberal or secular which is totally untrue as you can be both) educated about the religion and the national interested if we are to go forward as a nation.

To give it some prescriptive, if someone thinks that the Fazlullah guy is a MULLAH and a scholar and representative of true Islam then he is wrong, but just as wrong as the ones who think that Asma Jhangir is a secular and that Bhensa and that Mochi are liberals!! THEY ARE ALL EXTREMISTS!

The nation needs to wake up and UNDERSTAND this. We are being misled for ages, first in the name of religion and now in name of liberalism and secularism!!

@I.R.A and @Fallen King i agree with what you said.
 
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For the secular and liberal toads:

You lot claim
- Iqbal was secular
- Jinnah was secular
- Prophet S.A.W was liberal :astagh:

All were Muslim! None secular nor liberal.

Islam is Islam and a Muslim is a Muslim. That is all. There is no secular Islam / liberal Islam and no secular Muslim / liberal Muslim.

Islam pre-dates man made secularism and liberalism.

Those who claim to be secular &/or liberal Muslim, such toads are only doing so to justify their opinions and actions that are against the commands of Allah.

If you are a Muslim, do not classify Islam by some man made concept. And do not pay attention to the teachings of current day Muftis and whatnot.

Things like keeping beard doesn't make one a good Muslim, and clean shave and keeping pet dogs doesn't make one secular/Liberal either! Get off this rediculous stereotyping!

It seems you confused lot are focusing too much on the Ulema Su. Use your mind and develop an understanding of Islam without all bias and on your own. Stop your obsession with molvis and the Muftis dressed in robes and whatnot. Those are selling Islam for their gains. Do not listen to anyone preaching Islam for their own gain.

Secular/liberal toads get energy from the current day Muftis/molvis. All have gone off track. It is tit for tat and nothing productive is going to come out of it.

Again, there is no such thing as Secular Muslim and Liberal Muslim.

@Azlan Haider @AUz @Hell hound @Fallen King @Zibago @The Eagle


Bro, you are entitled to your own opinion.

But for us, opinion of Allama Muhammad Iqbal carries much more weight ... He believed that Islam and secularism were indeed compatible, and Islam as a religio-political system did permit separation of state and church. Regards
 
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Bhai i am not an extremist i don't support any extremists like (bhensa or asma jahangir types) nor do i want to forcefully impose my views on others (like mullahs and their supporters) all i am saying is that European countries are successful, progressive and tolerant today because of these 2 things religion is one's personal thing it should stay like that and that's what Mr Jinnah said too look what zia did to our country we still haven't recovered from that extremism has penetrated deep into every institution of our country i am not against any religion or Pakistan i am a Pakistani and a Muslim too i care for my country and i want best for it and if we can achieve it through secularism (that's Jinnah wanted too) than what's the harm in it?

Bahi I understand your point of view but there are a few things that I am trying to point out here so that all of our friends here can think about that and let me know if I am wrong on some account.

Making religion a person’s choice is OK. Making religion a personal THING is NOT!!

Religion is a complete code of life for all the followers and apply equally and unanimously on all followers. Now it can be one’s own personally CHOICE to follow that religion or not but it is not a personal THING to be used and abused on one’s own will. To be honest, we all know, being Muslims, deen mein jabar ni!! There is not forcing or pushing of ones beliefs’ onto others in our religion. Also a very basic teaching of Islam is that of moderation. YES, MODERATION!!! If someone call himself a MULLAH and preaches the wrong version of Islam it is not something wrong with ISLAM but with that person and more importantly with us who despite being Muslims are not aware of our religion’s teachings and have to rely on the what those guys calling themselves ALMIS tell us. Yes there are good people in that too but what we come across on regular basis are usually the school drop outs who were not good enough to pass matric and thus ended up in the madrassa!! HOW MUCH MORE SHAMEFUL DO WE WANT IT TO BE???? And it is not even the Mullahs that are to be blamed for all this, WE ARE TO BE BLAMED for being so illiterate our self in matters of the religion we follow that we are being fooled and misled by this bunch!!

As for the point regarding how Europe and the west have progressed because they have been secular, that is a completely different debate and I won’t go into that right now. However just to mention one point, I guess things like hard work, nationalism, education, honesty and devotion to whatever work you do, rules and laws that are meant to be followed and discipline are some “small matters” that might as well have played a part in the progress the west have made, don’t you think? Just being SECULAR wont make us progress, the things that will help us in this regard is working hard, honestly and with devotion, as taught by the religion as well.
I find it funny how our people just put it all on the religion just because all the others things are personal attributes and we our self will be blamed for not doing these right things and thus we our self will be responsible for being where we are today and not the religion, not even those thugs and scum so called mullahs!! On other hand, if we study our religion, we will be surprised to see that it is Islam that teaches us all these virtues that I have mentioned above and that I think all of us will agree to have played a part in that progress of west. From hard work to education, from honesty to discipline, name one thing that you feel have nothing to do with the progress the west have made OR that you think is something that Islam do not teaches and preaches us about!!

P.S. When I say “you” in above post, I am not pointing you out @The Sandman . It is not point you out in person just because I quoted your post bro. What I say and ask is from the general public. From all our members here and I want you all to please just think about it, use your brain and point out where you think I am wrong.

Will like to tag a few people i know can contribute to this and will be able to explain this problem words much much better than mine!
@HRK @fatman17 @araz @Irfan Baloch @Dazzler @The Eagle @WAJsal @niaz @Horus
 
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Islam as a religio-political system did permit separation of state and church

Everyone is free to practice their own faith within their domain and not impose on anyone else, that Islam teaches anyways. But state laws should not be against the commands in Quran and Sunnah also.

We will soon see a time when these Ulema Su will be brushed aside and discarded by the moderates in the society.

Secular and Liberal toads have issues with these ulemas. Silent majority does too. People are not as stupid as you lot think. A poor but strong faith man is wiser than you to stir a rebellion against these ulemas as it causes unrest in the society.

Attacking Pakistan ideology in your fight against these ulemas is a wrong approach just as their approach of using it to sell the religion. Both are on the wrong track.
 
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I rather would like to see pti doing this themeselves if they,re serious.anyway it always sounds a Joke on a Joke.
 
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Why do we fear Secularism?

By Havi Z Sultan

Many Pakistanis have a built in aversion towards the word secularism while taking an excessive pride in the Islamic Republic attached to Pakistan’s name. Despite the fact that many Pakistanis fail to follow the tenets of Islam and the word Islamic Republic makes a mockery of the meaning it remains a source of excessive pride. Scholars claim that today the country is very far from Islam because very few people in Pakistan really follow the tenets of Islam however very few of them can answer the question whether it's worthwhile to have an “Islamic Republic” only in name. However the real question is do we really have anything to fear from Secularism in the first place?

According to its dictionary meaning Secularism refers to the equal treatment of each and every religious group within the Nation and to the idea that religion should have a smaller role in politics and decision making because when it has too large a role people spend their time over their own separate interpretations of religion rather than Nation building and the tasks at hand.

Many Muslims in Pakistan fear secularism because they have a perverse idea of the concept fearing Islam will be diminished with Secularism. This is completely untrue. Pakistan’s Islamic identity will not be lost with a Secular system.

Will Secularism decrease Islam’s value in Pakistan?

Many Pakistanis continually fear that secularism will decrease Islam's value or worse will eliminate Islam from Pakistan.

The fact is no one is pushing Islam away and with 95% of the population of Pakistan being proud and extremely pious Muslims for the most part it is impossible to even try. Islam will still be practiced by the majority of people as it is being practiced today without any hindrance whatsoever. The only difference perhaps will be that religion will be a personal matter. A person who does not follow Islam devotedly or a follower of a different religion or a sect of Islam will not be persecuted for having his own separate beliefs.

If seen in such a light Secularism is nothing to be feared. We can be proud Muslims and defend Islam as much or even more with a secular constitution as we can by labelling a country ruled by very corrupt people with barely any link to Islam an “Islamic Republic”. An Islamic Republic where the rulers themselves have no link to Islam and others often use religion as a tool to fulfill their personal interests.

The fact is that a country that calls itself an Islamic Republic should have a constitution, laws (that are implemented instead of being cleared by people who can pay bribes), rules and regulations based on the tenets of Islam. A country lacking the Islamic economic and judicial system based on the teachings of the Prophet can't be an Islamic Republic. It's not that Pakistanis haven't tried. If proof is needed one needs to look at Zia's Islamicization. Pakistanis have tried to impose Islam in letter and spirit for 60 years and failed. It's more than time we revised our direction.

The tenets of Islam support Secularism & harmony

“To you be your Faith, and to me mine.”

Ayat 109:6

During the rule of Ali Ibn Abi Talib the fourth Caliph of Islam a Jew stole a shield that belonged to the Caliph and claimed that it was his. He was brought to the court of Ali to settle the dispute. However due to lack of proof and according to Islamic law the Jew was allowed to keep the shield as Hazrat Ali could not prove he owned the shield. This was a verdict going against a Muslim Caliph in his own court. However Hazrat Ali accepted the decision calmly. On the other hand the Jew was dumbfounded as he had indeed stolen the shield. He was quick to embrace Islam and declared that he had lied in front of the entire court.

This was one example of how Islam spread to become one of the largest religions in the World and won hearts and minds. It was due to the insight and tolerance our ancestors had that we got to where we are, that Cordova and Baghdad became centres of learning and Islam spread from the corners of Spain to the boundaries of the far east.

Unfortunately many people in Pakistan do not understand that human rights and the equal treatment of all individuals in the country is more important in Islam rather than a notion of Islamic pride and superiority where labelling a country an “Islamic Republic” is deemed necessary. This pride comes from a past that our ancestors built with policies that we fail to understand today.

The Quaid E Azams Principles

“In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.”

Quaid E Azam, February 1948

The above quote is the greatest proof that Quaid E Azam did not want a state that was built solely on the basis of religion. Unfortunately since his death the constitution has been changed to suit every new leader that came and the title “Islamic Republic” untrue it may be has been added along with many laws that are completely out of line with Quaid E Azam's original ideas for Pakistan. If we look closely at many of his speeches we will notice Quaid E Azam was a staunch supporter of secularism with an added focus on Islamic thought and ideology. Therefore until he was alive the Islamic Republic was never attached to the countries name. That happened when Ayub Khan came into power.

Other speeches by Quaid E Azam that clearly supported the message of peace, harmony and equality between all groups whether they are ethnic or religious are stated below.

‘We are starting with the fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. No matter what is his colour, caste or creed is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations….”

“In due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims – not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state.”

“[If you] work together in a spirit that everyone of you no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.”

11 August 1947

“The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.”

30th October 1947

Clearly Quaid E Azam understood that a Nation could not be built until differences were eliminated and people saws themselves as equal members of a single society regardless of faith or ethnicity.

Perhaps if that spirit was alive today Pakistan would not be afflicted with minor issues and infighting over Shia-Sunni, Barelvi-Deobandi, Wahabi-Mainstream Muslim, and the principles of personal freedom would have given way to building a Nation that was the most glorious one in history. Unfortunately this destiny still awaits the Pakistani race which dreams for justice and equality. Many conservatives continuously deny Quaid E Azam wanted a secular country believing that such a concept is against Islam when it is not. Perhaps they fear for their own interests but Quaid E Azam did indeed want a Nation that was Secular or Socialist and gave equal opportunity to all inhabitants.

People try to deny this but the fact is, being Muslims this is not something for us to be ashamed of but something glorious. That a leader who did so much for Muslims, gave them a new homeland and independence, still understood the morals of our ancestors because of whom Islam to spread is truly remarkable.

Issues caused by the misinterpretation of Islamic Law & resources used to contain them

The fact that laws created to safeguard Islam are being used for the benefit and self interest of bad people does not do anything great for the image of Islam. A clear example is the blasphemy law, a law that makes an insult to Islam, the Prophet or the Quran illegal and punishable by death. This law has been used against minorities for a long time. However Muslims have fallen victims to this law as well.

An example of how this law is misused was the case of Mohammad Imran who was arrested in Faisalabad for blasphemy on the 28th of October 2007. He was falsely blamed because of a personal argument. After being arrested he was first tortured by the police, then the inmates and later he was placed in solitary confinement without anyone looking after his injuries. He was only released in April 2009 after being declared innocent.

Another example was the framing of Akhtar Hammed Khan, an 81 year old writer and sociologist by business interests and authorities unwilling to let his development work take place in Orangi, Karachi. He had launched a development project on the behalf of the people of Orangi. His project offering real estate loans on good terms and work to improve the condition of women through education, and access to employment and family planning was not well-liked by these authorities. Thus they decided to book him on false charges with the police under the blasphemy laws. He was later released due to inadequate evidence but the case proves how the law is being used to settle personal scores and disputes.

Minorities have many such stories to share as 60% of all victims who are framed under this law are Non Muslims. The law has become a tool for fanatics, murderers and people seeking to settle personal scores yet the law still hasn’t been repealed due to the fact that militants have some influence on governance. Land disputes or personal quarrels are by far the main reason for people to be booked under this law.

Another such law is the Hudood Ordinance where in a case of Rape four witnesses are required to confirm that a rape has taken place. This is practically impossible. However the woman who complains that a rape has taken place is often booked for being with another man while the culprits of the rape run free.

Therefore the Hudood Law became a tool in the hands of rapists and today any woman can be raped. But when she goes to the police to get justice the Hudood Law can be used to frame her because by claiming that she has been raped she also admits that she has been with another man and committed Zinah. Some figures claim that in the year 1979 there were only 70 women in Pakistani jails. A decade later, in 1988, this figure had risen to 6000 and over 80% of the women in prison were there because of these laws. It is said many more women do not even report rapes in fear of being persecuted due to this law.

Is Pakistan really Islamic?

Better to have a Secular constitution than Islam only in name

There is no doubt that our leaders found us a land that was a safe haven for Muslims and gave us freedom to make our own decisions without the fear of suffering biased treatment for the faith we followed. However the question today is how much Islam is being followed in the country?

For instance the Quran states “Keep yourselves away from bribes because it is kufr and one who receives them will never smell the scent of paradise”. The fact is in Pakistan taking and giving bribes is so common that even a noble person can hardly live without paying one. Some honourable folk still struggle on but their lives are much more difficult. If a person has money it is a possibility he has given or taken a bribe at least once. Unfortunately the entire bureaucracy is at the forefront of this rot. Justice is sold and witnesses can be bought.

On the other hand while drinking is not allowed and a license is required in order to drink in Pakistan, people who want to drink do so with impunity and with no fear of being punished. The law is not even being implemented while if a drunkard happens to get caught a simple bribe wins back the persons freedom. On the other hand while adultery is considered a punishable law under the constitution it is practiced by many people in the country without any fear of punishment. The same goes for many other laws. It is virtually impossible to implement these laws and it costs resources to do so.

The fact is many laws related to Islam exist in Pakistan but they are there only in name. They are either being misused by people for their own interests or they are not implemented and people who commit heinous crimes are allowed to go free because of them, without any fear of punishment while the innocent are framed.

The real question for Pakistan today is whether it is sensible to have a false, broken and corrupt “Islamic Republic” in name or is it better to have a secular constitution that guarantees freedom to everyone and ensures that there are no vaguely addressed laws that make a mockery of our religion and are misused for the benefit of a few criminals.
 
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Agree with the statement but PTI is a divided lot, it has most no. of Shia and Ghamdi liberals. It has given shia liberals like Andleeb Abbas and Shireen Mazari, the steering to drive policymaking.

Imran Khan himself has gone berserk with his stupid shenanigans recently due to the ppl he has accumulated around him.

Pakistanis don't need Aamir Liaquat or a PTI fellow Ali Khan, they understand and can kick out these foreign funded liberals themselves. The only penetration these sick liberals have is online, they're publicly invisible. They are waging holy war on Pakistan and Islam with US dollars, which they accuse the religious of, from the 80s time . Liberal funding is more consistent and growing for 15 years now after 9/11 2001. PEoples Party helped them get most of the support thru talk shows. They are getting away with it as they are not being discussed, as they are being protected. Aamir Liaquat and others have made them an opportunity to improve their own clout shows both extremists want them around to gain popular support, the only losers are PAkistani public who these jacka**es are dividing to achieve their goals
 
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Put it this way both Hizbt-Tahrir which is trying to cause Fitnah amongst our armed forces and ISIS are dangerous charlatans, we do not need their endoresment to be known as an Islamic state/republic, the fact is the people chose Islam at the time of partition and an Islamic constitution which was devised by leading scholars of the country and has the backing of the overwhelming majority.
Of course anything to avoid the fitnah of these kharjis...
 
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Everyone is free to practice their own faith within their domain and not impose on anyone else, that Islam teaches anyways. But state laws should not be against the commands in Quran and Sunnah also.

I fully agree ... But there are laws in Pakistan which Bar Constitutional Non Muslims (i.e Ahmadis) from reciting the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Qur'an, as mentioned in the Qur'an itself, is a book of guidance for entire mankind, not for Mulsims only. We, the constitutional Muslims, don't have monopoly over Qur'an, or salvation. Why not oppose this law (which goes against Quranic injunctions) as the first step ...... ?
 
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Kudos to the PTI politician who said things that should be in the vernacular of all mainstream political parties of all Muslim countries. Secularist are non-muslims and as such are a minority in Muslim countries. They suffer from some serious inferiority complex and have considerable foreign backing to actually dream of stripping Muslim societies of their Islamic values & beliefs.

Also I believe it would be great and is a crying need to actually declare secularism and liberalism as separate religions OR sects of Christianity and their adherents should be given minority religious status in Muslim lands. If the state does it, many ignorant muslims who do NOT know better, would learn to view secularism and liberalism as it is deserved to be viewed i.e another religion. You do NOT see muslims talking about "christian islam" or "hindu Islam" like some idiots talk about "liberal Islam" and that is because people know these terms are oxymoron and incompatible with each other.

we liberals never had a shield to begin with neither do we need any. kiddo its your kind that is feeling threatened by us because you know a change is coming and it is inevitable in this age of information.as our economy grows more and more people are going to rip this curtain of ignorance.

Liberals have the whole western media giants, corporations, NGOs and most importantly western goverments with them. If you do NOT know, one of the stated foreign policy objectives of subsequent US administrations is to "promote liberal democracy and human rights" to the rest of the world. You people are also in power in most Muslim countries since WWI and dominate the media, industry and education system and the result is there for all to see - utter chaos.

Btw most western philosophers and colonialist have been dreaming and longing for the disappearance of Islam like you did in your last sentence. They tried their best in Algeria for over a century, kemalist tried to root out islam from turkey for a century, commies in USSR banned muslims from Practicing Islam and burned down mosques but what happened. French were kicked out from algeria and still muslims are a majority there, kemalist & liberals got their *** whipped and are now languishing in jail while religion is seeing a comeback to C.asian states ruled by secular despots.


Enemies of Islam throughout the ages dreamt the destruction of Islam starting with the mushriks of mecca. But Islam always triumphed because Allah (swt) out of His divine mercy promised the safeguard & protection of Islam :

“They intend to put out the Light of Allaah (i.e. the religion of Islam, this Qur’aan, and Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allaah will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it). [al-Saff :8-9]

and never will Allah give the disbelievers over the believers a way [to overcome them].[Quran 4:141]


“Allah has promised those among you who believe, and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the earth”

[an-Noor 24:55].


Bro there are a lot of things in the constitution that are wrong and discriminatory imo and they should be corrected or abolished and than we've this extremist mindset everywhere be it judiciary, gov, educational institutions or even military the only way to get rid of this extremism and intolerance is to move towards secular liberalism and no (before anyone says) liberalism doesn't mean insulting/hurting someone's religion or religious personalities. My question is simple why not we all just keep religion to ourselves (that's what Mr Jinnah wanted) lets just live and let others live? why can't we become like Germany, France and UK?

Going by you & @Hell hound post and history It seems you guys have absolutely 0 idea about both secular liberalism & most importantly Islam. You have absolutely 0 idea about what it means to be a Muslim and submitting to the will of Allah(swt) and being proud to be a slave of Allah (swt). If you did, you would not have uttered the non-sense you just did.


They demean and reject the constitution and ideology and basis of foundation of pakistan, that is ample misconduct to expell one from a country, such sentiments amount to treason and if these leeches gain power or ample followers in pakistan, with foriegn funding they can launch a genocide campaign like lenin and stalin did( the founding fathers of secularism)..


Germany, uk and france didnt become powers by sucking up to the muslim empires when we muslims were the superpower , they stuck to their ideologies and when the time came they pushed us over, we wont leave them behind until we syick to our own ideologies and and implement the true islamic principles of righteousness, honesty and brutal justice in this country, we have made islam a money generating industry here in pakistan, bring back real islam, the sharia law, the caliphate aka presidentiak system and see where we stand after 10 yrs, and only those idiots glorify seculariam who have little knowledge of history, no philosophical prowess over the advent of atheism, democracy,secualrism, liberalism etc and a minute iq, athiests and their ideologies have been the largest genocide committers in entrie histroy, chock up on lenin and stalin, chock up on what secular britian, france etc did to africans, indians etc, what secular eurpeans did to native redindians, what america was and still doing to blacks, pakistan is a much much tolerant society than these europeans and americans, read the actual stats for comparison and dont incclude these ttp vermin that were impoed on us by hindu and secular powers, secularism only negates god it does nothing to curb humans instincts to rape, loot plunder steal and murder, only religion and brutal justice does that...

And peope please stop labelling these vermins as liberals, liberalism is a phenomina that advocates negation of caste system, economic uplift of humans, equal oppurtunites to all and equal justice for all regardless of power or post, liberalism never actually stood for naked women, drunk loafers, rampant drugs, godlessness, feminism and disintegration of the nuclear family and traditional household, capitalists have hijacked liberalism to generate money through filth and what better way to justify it than labeling it as liberalism, muslims and islam were the greatest liberals ever to have walked the earth, label these vermins as secular fascists cause thats what they actually are..



Brother I commend you zeal, enthusiasm and pride for Islam and largely agree with you. But I as a muslim and a fellow brother in faith must disagree on your mistaken understanding of what liberalism is. NO, muslims and Islam were never liberals and rightfully so. Is islam - the religion ordained by the Creator of everything that exists - lacking something (nauzubillah) that you have to express it in terms of other ideologies and world views? NO absolutely NOT.

What is liberalism

Europeans after they lost faith in Christianity essentially became materialistic deist or atheist. The society as a whole became irreligious and and the idea developed that all religions are false and have flaws like Christianity. The christian doctrine just like all other non-islamic doctrines obviously has flaws since it has been corrupted by men over time and NO longer the message bought by prophet Jesus (pbuh). Without religion The ideologies they developed to replace Christianity was secularism (separation of church & state) and Liberalism (individual autonomy, equality under the secular law etc) and these ideologies are based on some underlying principles and ideas westerners considered absolute truths:

- Religion (west's trauma with Christianity) is inherently dogmatic and repressive and as such has to be controlled and made irrelevant. Its should be a "personal matter".

-Religion is man-made anyway and that rather than worry about the afterlife its more important to worry about the material life and enjoy it to its fullest. Religion and obeying God simply makes things difficult and bothersome.

-Human beings can understand everything thing with logic and reason (definition of logic/reason is something they themselves never agreed on) and since people may not agree on anything they came up with the concept of rule of the majority under the aegis of a secular constitution so that mob rule can not harm interest of businesses and elites.

-Science can solve all problems of mankind and scientism increasingly became the new religion. Darwinism later came and gave a big boost & justification to the materialistic philosophy of secularism.

- Society is made up of atomized individuals (individualism) that have no obligation or responsibility to society or family and these atomized individuals are equal under the secular law and only accountable to the state. Every individual is a "master" of their own-selves to pursue materialistic goals as long as it does NOT physically harm another individual . Putting objective morality OR religion would just make the whole structure collapse. This is the gist of what people call liberalism and this idea was developed by western philosophers like John Locke, Voltaire, Hume, Kant, Hobbes. You can call these people the prophets of liberalism and people like @Zibago & @Hell hound believed in these people's message without even knowing their names - dogmatic blind faith.

- Then they needed to assign some rights to these atomized individuals and since religion for them just does not make any sense - they based those rights on individualism, equality [all white men are equal (initially slaves & women were excluded)] In in their shallow intellect they conflated equality with justice and fairness. The current UN declaration of human rights is a copy paste of this western understanding of human rights - devoid of religion, objective morality and solely based on arbitrary reason & logic.

Make NO mistake every single tenet of these western ideology of liberalism is anti-theical to islam and Islamic world view. Islam is a religion of justice and fairness and the notion that humans can solve anything and everything with reason & logic is a alien concep. Allah (swt) did NOT give humans that ability and that is why prophet's & messengers were sent throughout the ages. In islam reason & logic is guided by divine revelation and muslims are NOT allowed to question divine revelation to suit their materialistic desires and abstract notions. Also islam does NOT grantee equality & equal rights to everyone but it gurantees due rights to everyone. People inherently differ in their gender, religion, languages and Islam takes that difference into consideration.

Another thing you have to realize is that the idea of absolute individual freedom (liberty) goes against Islam. As Muslims were are NOT free. We have submitted ourselves to the will of Allah(swt) and we have, unlike the non-muslims, achknowledged the fact that we human are nothing but slaves of Allah (swt) and we exist to worship Him (swt) alone without any partners. Everything happens by the will of Allah (swt) and everything single aspect of this universe and all that exist is under His (swt) control. This basic fundemental Islamic belief strikes at the very heart of everything liberalism stands for. This religion of secularism is at its core materialistic and is obsessed with control over all aspects of life. For them this life is the be all & end all of human existence and as such they feel a paranoia when they realize that they can't control all aspects of the material world. Anything (Islam) that hampers that materialistic endevour of humans is something they consider to be oppressive and restricting "free will". That is why you see them going ga ga over Islamic dress codes, dietary laws, family laws and Sharia's general emphasis on State regulating public sphere so that humans have an conducive environment to islamically develop them & their societies.

Btw Sharia does guarantee non-muslims unparalleled (compared to today's western liberal world) communal & religious freedom. Islamic dietary, family, financial laws do NOT apply to them. Also islam guarantees freedom in one's private sphere and restricts invasion into one's private life unlike what you find western liberal goverments and secular "muslim" goverments doing now a days. Secular liberals can keep their kufr beliefs to themselves even in a state ruled under islamic principles. They just have to closet themselves to their own communal and friends circle.

Btw Brother @Awan68 I am a sinful muslim just like you and do not claim to be a alem (scholar) or an expert in philosophy but I do have the basic understanding of my religion and the beliefs of many groups that are currently waging a war on Islam and one such group is liberal secularist. This post is meant just to correct some mistakes of a fellow brother in faith. I hope my post does NOT give out any rude vibe. I hope you take it in a positive light. May Allah (swt) guide us both to the path that pleases Him (swt) most.
 
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Sattar saal guzar gaye, abhi tak yeh faisla bhi nahi hua keh Zulaikha aurat thee ya mard.

How long does it take for a nation to decide what is at the very heart of its foundation? If it is Islam, then why are all laws not yet based on it? If it is not, why the confusion? Let the people have what they want, whatever it is. Just make the decision, at least.

A man with feet in two boats drowns at some point.
 
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