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Safe nuclear does exist, and China is leading the way with thorium

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Land requirements are not as high as imagined. It's only the exposed surface area which matters, and that can be utilized side by side other infrastructure.

I posted an article in the previous post. Not sure if things have changed now.

Besides, solar power needs a lot of land. This can be neglected in a small pilot project, but not in large, commercial projects. The biggest CST projects in the US use 6 to 10 acres per MW of power. By this yardstick, even a pilot project of 100 MW requires 600 to 1,000 acres of land. A commercial project of 1,000 MW needs 6,000 to 10,000 acres. After the troubles of Tata Motors at Singur and Posco in Orissa, we must be cautious about land-intensive projects.

The electricity produced by these cells is stored for consumption at a later stage. However, because of problems listed by you, solar energy is generally supplemented with other sources so as to satisfy demands.

As SB said, there is no efficient way to store large amount of electricity as of now.
 
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Experts estimate that China has nearly 300,000 tons of thorium reserves, which is enough for the nation to use for 300 years.

Global energy giants tapping local market
Current thorium reserve estimates are based on concentrations of thorium just as most reserves are calculated. However, thorium reserves are unique because the advent of liquid thorium reactors increases the efficiency to above 99% of the fuel which means it makes it economical to mine thorium from low concentrations like regular granite rock. 1 tonne of thorium can power a 1000MW power plant for an entire year. Thorium is as common as lead and it is much easier to handle than uranium because of its much lower radioactivity. This is why thorium advocates have sometimes stated that thorium has the potential to supply fuel for liquid thorium reactors for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years.

Liquid thorium, aka. TMSR, LFTR reactors is a world changing technology. Once it becomes commercially available, energy costs will plummet by at least 75% at the minimum and eliminate energy conflicts for those countries adopting it wholesale. It will become economical for sea water desalination so that water problems in countries like China and any desert country could be solved. In future history, I think it will be considered the most important technological change of the 21st century and rank in importance with the automobile, airplane and Internet.
 
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To my Indian-bhais,

Let me clarify something on Thorium. India was not the first to use Thorium for a Molten Salt Breeder Reactor and had never owned one. The Indian approach was to use Thorium to produce Uranium and then using Uranium in a conventional PHWR reactor. Basically, the reactor is still using Uranium but the source for the Uranium is not from mines, but from Thorium. Producing Uranium from Thorium is a fairly simple technology and no other nation ON EARTH does this because of ONE simple reason > $$

India was desperate for Uranium and hence they had to get it the hard way, use Thorium. Now, the question is what is different with the Chinese MSR?


Basically, the Chinese reactor is a Breeder reactor, check what it means yourselves. You can use thorium as the fuel for the reactor directly and it's cooled by molten salt.

Well, India was ahead of China in breeder technology until recently. Btw, the Indian reactor was a French made reactor which was abandoned half way by the French.

Currently, China has a breeder reactor that produces more MWt > 65 MWt versus 40 MWt.


To check how advanced China is compared to India in Civil nuke. Just check the power output for the reactors. You would be shocked!


1) All Chinese and Indian reactors were foreign derived. However, one can see the difference in the rate of technology assimilation and reverse engineering.

2) Chinese reactors along with all advanced nuclear nations uses PWR, while India uses almost exclusively PHWR. Now, use some logics and guess which one is safer and why.

3) China has got pebble rock tech, India?

4) China has got Gen III American, EU tech? India?
 
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To my Indian-bhais,

Let me clarify something on Thorium. India was not the first to use Thorium for a Molten Salt Breeder Reactor and had never owned one. The Indian approach was to use Thorium to produce Uranium and then using Uranium in a conventional PHWR reactor. Basically, the reactor is still using Uranium but the source for the Uranium is not from mines, but from Thorium. Producing Uranium from Thorium is a fairly simple technology and no other nation ON EARTH does this because of ONE simple reason > $$

India was desperate for Uranium and hence they had to get it the hard way, use Thorium. Now, the question is what is different with the Chinese MSR?


Basically, the Chinese reactor is a Breeder reactor, check what it means yourselves. You can use thorium as the fuel for the reactor directly and it's cooled by molten salt.

Well, India was ahead of China in breeder technology until recently. Btw, the Indian reactor was a French made reactor which was abandoned half way by the French.

Currently, China has a breeder reactor that produces more MWt > 65 MWt versus 40 MWt.


To check how advanced China is compared to India in Civil nuke. Just check the power output for the reactors. You would be shocked!


1) All Chinese and Indian reactors were foreign derived. However, one can see the difference in the rate of technology assimilation and reverse engineering.

2) Chinese reactors along with all advanced nuclear nations uses PWR, while India uses almost exclusively PHWR. Now, use some logics and guess which one is safer and why.

3) China has got pebble rock tech, India?

4) China has got Gen III American, EU tech? India?

Just for your information:
1) Fast Breeder Reactors have been built and operated in the USA, UK, France, USSR, India and Japan.
2) India’s first 40 MWt Fast Breeder Test Reactor (FBTR) attained criticality on 18 October 1985. China still doesnt have an operational reactor.
3) Already the construction (already in its final stages) of another FBR - the 500 MWe prototype fast breeder reactor - at Kalpakkam.

Now I can enlighten you with more information, but this should be enough for you to understand the level of Indian civil nuclear technology.
 
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I hope we can avoid making it a Vs. thread and just keep to the technologies and the advantages of it.
 
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Current thorium reserve estimates are based on concentrations of thorium just as most reserves are calculated. However, thorium reserves are unique because the advent of liquid thorium reactors increases the efficiency to above 99% of the fuel which means it makes it economical to mine thorium from low concentrations like regular granite rock. 1 tonne of thorium can power a 1000MW power plant for an entire year. Thorium is as common as lead and it is much easier to handle than uranium because of its much lower radioactivity. This is why thorium advocates have sometimes stated that thorium has the potential to supply fuel for liquid thorium reactors for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years.

Liquid thorium, aka. TMSR, LFTR reactors is a world changing technology. Once it becomes commercially available, energy costs will plummet by at least 75% at the minimum and eliminate energy conflicts for those countries adopting it wholesale. It will become economical for sea water desalination so that water problems in countries like China and any desert country could be solved. In future history, I think it will be considered the most important technological change of the 21st century and rank in importance with the automobile, airplane and Internet.

These are really big claims. Do you have some sources to corroborate this?
 
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Just for your information:
1) Fast Breeder Reactors have been built and operated in the USA, UK, France, USSR, India and Japan.
2) India’s first 40 MWt Fast Breeder Test Reactor (FBTR) attained criticality on 18 October 1985. China still doesnt have an operational reactor.
3) Already the construction (already in its final stages) of another FBR - the 500 MWe prototype fast breeder reactor - at Kalpakkam.

Now I can enlighten you with more information, but this should be enough for you to understand the level of Indian civil nuclear technology.


Yes, I know many countries had it. I was trying to inform you India was ahead until recently, that too because China unlike India was not spoon fed breeder tech back in the 60s. We had only recently reversed Russian breeder tech.

Please use some effort and google online. The Chinese reactor is already operational since last year.

As for your 500MW reactor, I am aware of it. Let the reactor start up first, then talk. You have no idea how many reactors are under construction in China now. We do not have the habit of boasting before we complete something. Based on my estimation, when India says something is close to completion, it means another 5 years or worse, another decade. =)


Ever wonder why LCA is always in testing stage, Arjunk is being force shafted to the army. Indigenous destroyers is made form Russian steel? I can go on and on, preaching reality to my Indian bhais. Stop living in Bollywood!! Wake up, hell even the word Bollywood makes me laugh...Holly..sheeshh..:no:
 
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Yes, I know many countries had it. I was trying to inform you India was ahead until recently, that too because China unlike India was not spoon fed breeder tech back in the 60s. We had only recently reversed Russian breeder tech.

Please use some effort and google online. The Chinese reactor is already operational since last year.

As for your 500MW reactor, I am aware of it. Let the reactor start up first, then talk. You have no idea how many reactors are under construction in China now. We do not have the habit of boasting before we complete something. Based on my estimation, when India says something is close to completion, it means another 5 years or worse, another decade. =)


Ever wonder why LCA is always in testing stage, Arjunk is being force shafted to the army. Indigenous destroyers is made form Russian steel? I can go on and on, preaching reality to my Indian bhais. Stop living in Bollywood!! Wake up, hell even the word Bollywood makes me laugh...Holly..sheeshh..:no:

Take it easy, mate. You want to say you are the superman with IQ of 140+?

I Agree.

All the technical books I and you read are written by Chinese authors, electronics was invented by them, E=MC2 was a Chinese discovery, Heisenberg uncertainty law is also Chinese, 60% of the Nobels are won by the Chinese, search Engine was invented by them, so too the internet, the mobile phone, the PC, the nuclear sciences, the Bernoulli's theorem, the 0, the decimal system, the aircraft carrier, the submarine, Sputnik was a Chinese satellite.

It was China that pumped $2 trillion in communication technologies during the DotCom boom that revolutionized communication everywhere, not the USA. All latest technologies are coming from China now.

You are not catching up on all these, you innovated them and invented them.

You are the innovation capital of the world and I salute you.
 
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These are really big claims. Do you have some sources to corroborate this?
Search for...

"+LFTR +1000MW"
"+LFTR +desalination"
"+'Thorium Molten Salt Reactor' +1000MW"
"+'Molten Salt Reactor' +desalination"

...also watch the Youtube videos on LFTR nuclear technology. The Google Tech Talks presentation is over 1 hour but very very interesting. I suggest you watch the 2 long versions about LFTR since they are much more illuminating. If you want to skip to the guts of it, watch this Youtube summary video instead...


...It mentions the costs involved which point to a huge reduction in energy costs as well as how much actual thorium fuel is needed to fuel these power plants. The combination of tiny amounts of required thorium fuel together with its abundance in the Earth's crust basically indicates a near inexhaustible fuel source that would last almost 10000 years if every Human Being consumes American levels of energy and believe it or not hundreds of thousands of years if lower thorium concentrations are mined, such as granite bedrock, which would be economically viable when the time came for it.
 
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^^ Wow. So mother nature planned it all!

Can't wait to see the oil back to <$20 and the Sheikhs back on their camels. ;)
 
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Yes, I know many countries had it. I was trying to inform you India was ahead until recently, that too because China unlike India was not spoon fed breeder tech back in the 60s. We had only recently reversed Russian breeder tech.
China did not reverse engineer Russian breeder reactors. It has cooperation agreements with Russia for its breeder reactor projects. The 65MW reactor has Russian input while the 880MW demonstration breeder reactor is a collaboration with Russia which I understand is being built in parallel with Russia's BN-800 Beloyarsk plant.
 
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These are really big claims. Do you have some sources to corroborate this?

I don't know why you're so worried about Chinese Thorium reserves.


The current knowledge of thorium reserves in the worldis small. In Brazil, several monazite placers occur on the Atlanticcoast. In addition large reserves (87%) are associated with bastnaesite in A r a xa carbonatites. In Canada 2^0 x 10 t of thorium resources are identified so far, bulk of which are associated withuranium (Th:U 3.5:1/0.5:1) in the quartz-pebble conglomeratesof Elliot lake. In South Africa, of 12500 t of Th identified, about77.5% is estimated to occur in the carbonatites, 11.2% in thesandstones of Karoo supergroup, and only 5% in the quartz-pebbleconglomerates and the rest as veins in Archean complex. China and USA have a large reserve base because of the association of Th (0.5% to 1% ThO2) with REO in its bastnaesitedeposits associated with carbonatites. The Chinese reserve associated with the bastnaesite in the carbonatites of Inner Mangoliaare estimated at 380,000 t of Th [19]


http://www.iaea.org/inisnkm/nkm/aws/fnss/fulltext/0412_1.pdf]

The information on Th reserves is spotty since it no one saw much use for it until comparative recently. As active exploration and Th reactor tech advanced, I'm sure more will be found.
 
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What a utopian disscussion going on here,I enjoyed it,i found a recent article on thorium

Thorium May Edge Uranium as Future ‘Go-To’ Nuclear Fuel

So following the near meltdown of several reactors at Fukushima Nuclear Power, it’s dead is it? Well, to follow one FT article, you could be mistaken for thinking that will be the likely outcome. As the article reports, impact on the industry has been dramatic, from miners like Cameco, a major Canadian uranium producer, whose share price has fallen 20 percent since March 10th, to major deals like Russian ARMZ’s acquisition of Mantra Resources for A$1.2 billion that has been called off after the buyer’s (an ARMZ subsidiary Uranium One) share price fell 34 percent. Apparently by the end of last week, the (admittedly thinly traded) spot uranium price had fallen 27 percent since Friday to $50/lb.

More importantly for nuclear power, it is not the markets that have been spooked but public opinion and the governments that react to that opinion – at least in democracies. Germany has announced ten of their aging reactors will not be given leave to extend their operating life by 12 years as previously expected and countries as far apart – both politically and geographically – as the US and China have said they are reviewing safety procedures and future projects. Undoubtedly the cost of construction has gone up as a result of Fukushima and public opinion has been hardened, but as we saw with Chernobyl, time does allow fears to subside and the reality is nuclear power will continue to provide a significant percentage of power supply in many countries even if it may not take longer and cost more than we had expected a month ago.

But not all forms of nuclear power are equal; certainly not all forms carry the same inherent risks of meltdown. China is investing considerable sums in developing a technology using radioactive thorium that was first conceived back in the 1960s by US physicists at Oak Ridge National Laboratory but, supporters say, lacked funding because it didn’t have the benefit of creating weapons-grade fissile material as a by-product. In those Cold War days, weapons production was as important as energy production. There are potentially two thorium nuclear energy production technologies; the approach to be developed by China will be a thorium-based molten salt reactor. The fail-safe requires no external power or intervention. If the reaction begins to overheat, a plug in the base of the containment vessel melts and the contents simply drain under gravity into a pan. As a Telegraph article quotes former NASA engineer Kirk Sorensen saying, the reactor saves itself.

Many consider the MSR the best long term option, but there is a second thorium-based reactor process more closely aligned to existing technologies; this requires an external “accelerator source” of neutrons to maintain the reaction, and without the existing accelerator the reaction stops. Some, such as Nobel laureate Carlo Rubbia at CERN (European Organization for Nuclear Research) proposed using a photon beam while others use a plutonium core such as that under development by India. According to sources quoted in Wikipedia, India’s Kakrapar-1 reactor is the world’s first reactor that uses thorium with a plutonium accelerator in the reactor core. India, which has about 25 percent of the world’s thorium reserves, is developing a 300 MW prototype of a thorium-based Advanced Heavy Water Reactor. The prototype is expected to be fully operational by 2011, after which five more reactors will be constructed. India currently foresees meeting 30 percent of its electricity demand through thorium-based reactors by 2050.

Thorium, while not without its issues, has much to commend it over uranium. It is widely available in the earth’s crust; the US, for example, has vast reserves as a result of old rare-earth mining waste and Norway has so much it is contemplating research as a second renaissance once oil and gas runs out. The technology can also consume old weapons-grade nuclear fuel and uranium power plant waste, helping resolve a growing storage problem with conventional technology. According to wiki sources, thorium produces 10 to 10,000 times less long-lived radioactive waste. The metal comes out of the ground as a 100% pure, usable isotope, which does not require enrichment, whereas natural uranium contains only 0.7 percent fissionable U-235.

Maybe most pertinent to the current debate, thorium cannot sustain a nuclear chain reaction without priming, so fission stops by default.

To quote the IAEA in the article, the world currently has 442 nuclear reactors. They generate 372 gigawatts of power, providing 14 percent of global electricity. Some suggest nuclear output must double over twenty years just to keep pace with the rise of the China and India, or we will have to build massive numbers of coal-fired power stations. Solar, wind, wave and so on are good local options but are not scalable to fill the gap. If a commercially viable alternative to uranium-based reactors could be developed without the risks inherent in uranium power production, an almost “too good to be true” outcome could await. Buy those thorium shares now? Not just yet, but certainly keep your eye on this space.

http://http://agmetalminer.com/2011/03/23/thorium-may-edge-uranium-as-future-go-to-nuclear-fuel/
 
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So, is it fair to say that the proposed Chinese design is probably more efficient than the Indian "Advanced nuclear power system"?

Or the two are not comparable?

I never read the kind of cost advantages from the Indian reactor so it seems the Chinese are onto a good thing.
 
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True, but there are other issues as well. The need for vast amounts of land that may not be feasible in India where land acquisition is a problem, even in deserts like Rajasthan.

Then, the fact that the power output is not stable and depends on the time of day and season. So it can't be used as a base load and you will need alternate capacity anyway for peak loads.

I think using the buildings to double as a solar cells is a good mitigation for the land issue, not sure we have proven out this concept anywhere.

This can work. There are 3 factors in favor of solar: 1.) thin film photovoltaics that use 1% of the material for half the efficiency. Wafers are one of the largest costs, but you don't need wafers for thin film. 2.) the process equipment is expensive right now because there is a near monopoly on them by Applied Materials. With Chinese process equipment companies rising, the costs will drop. 3.) Mechanically stable thin films integrated into buildings, as either wall elements or windows, can make the space issue irrelevant if every building is installed with them.

No, electricity cannot be stored for future use, existing battery system is not efficient enough and their capacity is not high enough to meet that requirement. You can sell the unused energy to the grid, and buy back from the grid at the time of peak demand.

You don't need a battery though it would be the best thing to have. Electricity indeed can't be "directly stored" but it can be converted to stable form. You can use solar power to pump water up a gravity gradient in 1 tunnel and when you need electricity, open another tunnel with a turbine. Or use it to spin a heavy, frictionless wheel (possibly one suspended in a magnetic field) that when needed can be attached to a generator to generate electricity by reducing the spin rate. Don't know about the efficiency of this though.
 
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