Featured Russia would be developing upgraded engines for Pakistan's JF-17 fighters

[Ultima Thule]

WS-13 is a plug n play for Thunders now. It all comes down to preference of the User...
PAF might be waiting for WS-19 now...
Hoping to see it in later batches of Block 3 or on B4

B4 i don't thinks so if we start production B3 on this year let suppose minimal requirement of B3 will be 100-150 jets, at a production rate of 16 per year this might be complete in 2024/2025, when your propose B4 will be obsolete and AZM are getting ready for first flight, and WS-19 project is long way to go and more intended toward 5th gen medium weight jet like J-35 (a version of FC-31) and project AZM

 

[StormBreaker]

B4 i don't thinks so if we start production B3 on this year let suppose minimal requirement of B3 will be 100-150 jets, at a production rate of 16 per year this might be complete in 2024/2025, when your propose B4 will be obsolete and AZM are getting ready for first flight, and WS-19 project is long way to go and more intended toward 5th gen medium weight jet like J-35 (a version of FC-31) and project AZM

Our concern is our neighbor, our neighbor intends to build 80-100 MK1A by 2028, if we start Block 4 in 2026, we will still be very much updated with the world.

Thunder can eventually become a semi fifth gen platform, Having sensor fusion, Advanced Situational awareness, Single WIDE MFD. BTW, coming time, i think stealth design will become obsolete, anti stealth radars and defenses would be made.
By 2045, Quantum computing would become possible, so...

 

[Marker]

If @Dazzler's source is some PAF air officer, then he must be right. But if his source is some Chinese official, then I will bet on RD-93 based on following:

PAF officials already acknowledged the reliability of RD-93 and confirmed that one of these has accumulated 7000 hours.

Note that actual service life of RD-93 recommended by the manufacturer was 2200 hours. So this confirms the reliability and durability of the engine.

Maintaining two different logistic support for two different engines for same type of aircraft is not economical.

Furthermore establishing an engine overhauling facility costs lot of money. PAF will not invest on a venture whose life is no more than a decade.

sir overhaul facilities to maintains older Block-1/2 engines, this doesn't meas that we are showing interest on RD-93 MA engine, as one Senior member here named @Dazzler hinted that block-3 will have WS-13E and in block-3 first flight it had a WS-13E rather then RD-93 or upgrades of RD-93

 

[Ultima Thule]

Our concern is our neighbor, our neighbor intends to build 80-100 MK1A by 2028, if we start Block 4 in 2026, we will still be very much updated with the world.

Thunder can eventually become a semi fifth gen platform, Having sensor fusion, Advanced Situational awareness, Single WIDE MFD. BTW, coming time, i think stealth design will become obsolete, anti stealth radars and defenses would be made.
By 2045, Quantum computing would become possible, so...

first consider when our enemy will finish production of MK-1 and will start a production of MK1A which i don't think they will start and will switch directly from MK-1 to MK-2
and there will be no semi stealth version of JF-17 as various PAF sources (various former PAF ACMs) may be it will in the same category of F-16V/EF-2000 tranche-3 with farther reduce RCS more composite advance avionics and anti stealth radars and defenses are still in their infancy stages

 

[Beast]

Assembling knocked down kits (CKD) has never been a step to indigenous production for third world countries. So many cases were this was a dead end to development.

Truth is, research and innovation takes a mindset change, not a CKD kit. But this lesson cannot be learned because the mindset is such that it does not allow us to progress beyond.

That alone is not enough. You need a powerful Industries to support with supplier parts from thousand of local contractor plus a world class test facilities to validate your design. Not to mention a huge pool of talent or skill workforce.
All this don't fall from the sky and will not take just 4-6 years to got it. It need a few decades and many billions of dollars to achieve.

 

[Armchair]

After establishing overhauling facility, assembling of CKD will require few additional specialist tooling, jigs and testers. This will be next stage of ToT.

During the induction phase of Saab MFI-17 in PAF, the aircraft were received in the form of CDK. These were assembled at AMF Kamra. AMF gradually established manufacturing capabilities of various parts with the help of manufacturer. Finally AMF was able to manufacture complete aircraft - Mushshak and Super Mushshak.

Establishing a jet engine manufacturing facility is more difficult than establishing a manufacturing facility for airframe of an aeroplane. Needs huge amount of finance and skilled human resource. But in the end it will worth.

Therefore, I am recommending to gradually upgrade the overhauling facility, being established at 102 AED Faisal this year, into a manufacturing facility.

About 15-20% of PAF engineers are highly qualified PhDs and very much capable to carryout research and innovation. The only hindrance for them is lack of infrastructure. By establishing a full-fledged manufacturing facility for RD-93, a starting infrastructure will be provided to these people to use their skills to design new engine components and new engines.

Mushaq like aircraft are built in garages of private citizens in the US. It is child's play, not a staged development process like described here.

 

[Marker]

Mushaq like aircraft are built in garages of private citizens in the US. It is child's play, not a staged development process like described here.

Yes, these can be built in garages using CKD.

Even few PAF young engineers built a plane using a knock down kit and few daring pilots flew that aircraft for sometime.

Same feat was done by few local Pakistani enthusiasts and successfully flew them.

But designing and developing a plane for specific specialize purpose is completely a different ball game. Everything from power, aerodynamics to avionics is designed, developed, tested and produced. But all this require a solid infra-structure. Pakistan at that time was having none.

In case of MFI-17, MRF was provided all necessary infra-structure to manufacture every part of the aeroplane from the manufacturer. This provided PAF engineers to gain the starting experience of manufacturing small parts of an aeroplane and assembling them to produce a complete aircraft.

It is not only ToT but also training of your manpower that requires time, therefore gradual leveling up stages of development is necessary.

As one of the Chinese PDF member @Beast rightly pointed out, a strong Industrial support, world class test facilities and huge pool of talented and skilled manpower are required to dare venturing projects like "Azm".

Pakistan is gradually heading towards right direction, but of course this will take time. With help of our friends, China and Turkey, we will be achieving these goals in 50% lesser time and effort.

 

[Armchair]

Yes, these can be built in garages using CKD.

Even few PAF young engineers built a plane using a knock down kit and few daring pilots flew that aircraft for sometime.

Same feat was done by few local Pakistani enthusiasts and successfully flew them.

But designing and developing a plane for specific specialize purpose is completely a different ball game. Everything from power, aerodynamics to avionics is designed, developed, tested and produced. But all this require a solid infra-structure. Pakistan at that time was having none.

In case of MFI-17, MRF was provided all necessary infra-structure to manufacture every part of the aeroplane from the manufacturer. This provided PAF engineers to gain the starting experience of manufacturing small parts of an aeroplane and assembling them to produce a complete aircraft.

It is not only ToT but also training of your manpower that requires time, therefore gradual leveling up stages of development is necessary.

As one of the Chinese PDF member @Beast rightly pointed out, a strong Industrial support, world class test facilities and huge pool of talented and skilled manpower are required to dare venturing projects like "Azm".

Pakistan is gradually heading towards right direction, but of course this will take time. With help of our friends, China and Turkey, we will be achieving these goals in 50% lesser time and effort.

A little out of your depth my friend. Kamra never designed every part of a Mushaq. smh.

I find it funny when people talk about assembling CKD kits as some kind of a step to designing and building an aircraft. Again, you missed the point I am making, precisely because of the point I am making - a different mindset and thinking is needed to be able to innovate and build new things. A mindset that people who don't have don't understand.

between designing Mushaq like planes is done by amateur hobbyists in the US. Often parts are sourced or even built.
Small companies exist (with a few employees or just one designer) who design such kits and sell them.

 

[araz]

A little out of your depth my friend. Kamra never designed every part of a Mushaq. smh.

I find it funny when people talk about assembling CKD kits as some kind of a step to designing and building an aircraft. Again, you missed the point I am making, precisely because of the point I am making - a different mindset and thinking is needed to be able to innovate and build new things. A mindset that people who don't have don't understand.

between designing Mushaq like planes is done by amateur hobbyists in the US. Often parts are sourced or even built.
Small companies exist (with a few employees or just one designer) who design such kits and sell them.

May I humbly suggest that we avoid abrasive statements. By your logic Gripen is not a parent produce because the engine and multiple smaller parts come/are built under licence from US. I would remind you that Saab has a history of aircraft manufacturing going back a long time. Point being no country barring US, The French and the Russians build planes from ground up. The rest are joint collaborations to a lesser or greater extent. The Chinese might join this rank soon.
A

 

[Haris Ali2140]

May I humbly suggest that we avoid abrasive statements. By your logic Gripen is not a parent produce because the engine and multiple smaller parts come/are built under licence from US. I would remind you that Saab has a history of aircraft manufacturing going back a long time. Point being no country barring US, The French and the Russians build planes from ground up. The rest are joint collaborations to a lesser or greater extent. The Chinese might join this rank soon.
A

Even F-35 has a lot of foreign parts.

 

[Marker]

A little out of your depth my friend. Kamra never designed every part of a Mushaq. smh.

I find it funny when people talk about assembling CKD kits as some kind of a step to designing and building an aircraft. Again, you missed the point I am making, precisely because of the point I am making - a different mindset and thinking is needed to be able to innovate and build new things. A mindset that people who don't have don't understand.

between designing Mushaq like planes is done by amateur hobbyists in the US. Often parts are sourced or even built.
Small companies exist (with a few employees or just one designer) who design such kits and sell them.

I never stated that MRF designed MFI-17.

To attain such level of expertise (designing and innovation), you need to have infrastructure that Pakistan was/is lacking.

One way of building infra-structure in the country is to start from scratch. Building those products whose in-country consumption is high enough to meet break-even. But unfortunately, our country's political environment do not favour such ventures. There were people who took initiative to build cars and even engines but were forced to abandon their projects.

So, we need to start somewhere.

Another way that our armed forces applied was bringing infra structure in our country directly from manufacturers. This path is expensive but efficient in terms of time and training of manpower.

Establishing of assembling facility to assemble MFI-17 CDK was that start. To assemble CDK require lot of special tools for alignment, rigging and assembly jigs, general engineering tooling, various pipes manufacturing facility etc. At that time PAC do not have such facility. Establishing it was a leap towards development. Rest is a story.

Establishment of 25% manufacturing facility of K-8 airframe was another phase of development.

Establishing of 58% manufacturing facility of JF-17 airframe is another higher level of development of infra-structure.

PAC is gradually expanding its infrastructure.

Availability of such sophisticated machines, state of the art general testing rigs/stations and precision tooling etc are providing hands on experience to our Ph Ds and MS engineers.

Let us see what will they demonstrate eventually, as their first indigenous design of next generation fighter.

 

[araz]

Even F-35 has a lot of foreign parts.

The only difference here is this was a cost cutting exercise not lack of capability. Sir @Bilal Khan 777 pointed out that the marraging steel for JFT is being ordered from EU sources as the Chinese do not have the capability of cutting such metals. I dont know the veracity of the claim but being a retd senior PAF officer of a very high rank I would be inclined to believe him.
A

 

[khanasifm]

New engine is not just for pad but for many other foreign orders
I will try to find it again but many foreign customers are interested in jf with non Rd engine for various reason one being Russian permission as they can ...

It was in one of the Afm articles. Or show report which stated one country will test with non Rd engine

 

[Marker]

New engine is not just for pad but for many other foreign orders
I will try to find it again but many foreign customers are interested in jf with non Rd engine for various reason one being Russian permission as they can ...

It was in one of the Afm articles. Or show report which stated one country will test with non Rd engine

Chinese WS-13 will be installed on export version of JF-17s upon foreign customer's requirement.

 

[DrWatson775]

The only difference here is this was a cost cutting exercise not lack of capability. Sir @Bilal Khan 777 pointed out that the marraging steel for JFT is being ordered from EU sources as the Chinese do not have the capability of cutting such metals. I dont know the veracity of the claim but being a retd senior PAF officer of a very high rank I would be inclined to believe him.
A

Does China do the same for aircraft that they manufacture?