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Featured Russia would be developing upgraded engines for Pakistan's JF-17 fighters

PAF will not agree to install Chinese WS-13E engine on JF-17 because RD-93 (MA???) already produces 78 kN to 98 kN thrust. (Wikipedia refers following Klimov poster at Zhuhai 2010 airshow)

https://web.archive.org/web/20180524222821if_/http://i56.tinypic.com/n3vu4x.jpg

RD-93 is also a proven engine on JF-17. Also refer following article published in Defence Industry Bulletin.
(Image posted by @khanasifm, refer https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-to-get-a-new-engine-rd-93ma-with-9300kgf-thrust.193184/page-8)

Date of publication is not available on this image but the article was written during June-July 2015.
A very informative article with lot of technical details on WS-13 and RD-33/93 design evolution. Some of the salient features of modified engines are:
(1) Improved inlet fans design resulting in increase in fan speed and/or increase in mass flow.
(2) Modified combustion chamber.
(3) Modified LP and HP turbine to compensate higher turbine inlet temperatures.
(4) Engine exhaust nozzles by increasing secondary air flow.
(5) A full authority digital engine control (FADEC) and efficient hydro-mechanical fuel control.

After 4.5 years, can we assume that currently PAF is operating JF-17 powered by upgraded RD-93 MA which produces 93kN wet thrust??????

What is dry thrust or mil thrust of 93MA? Western engines dry/mil thrust is usually higher where most of the time used in flight and burner are used for few seconds

Ge404 13000 lbs vs Rd 11000

And ge burner 22000/26000 (ipe variant ) vs 20000-22000

But thrust to weight ratio is 9 for ge vs Rd 7.8 I think [emoji848]

But then ge cost 3 or 4 times more
 
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...

After 4.5 years, can we assume that currently PAF is operating JF-17 powered by upgraded RD-93 MA which produces 93kN wet thrust??????

No, IMO not ... all reports so far hint is the regular proven RD-93 with some minor improvements, but NOT the RD-93MA. I must admit, it's a long time since I heard any credible news concerning this variant.
 
What is dry thrust or mil thrust of 93MA? Western engines dry/mil thrust is usually higher where most of the time used in flight and burner are used for few seconds

Ge404 13000 lbs vs Rd 11000

And ge burner 22000/26000 (ipe variant ) vs 20000-22000

But thrust to weight ratio is 9 for ge vs Rd 7.8 I think
emoji848.png


But then ge cost 3 or 4 times more

Following engine data is extracted from wikipedia for both General Electric F404-GE402 and Klimov RD-33:

Mil thrust F404: 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN)
Mil thrust RD33: 11,230 lbf (50.0 kN)

Thrust with afterburner F404: 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN)
Thrust with afterburner RD33: 18,285 lbf (81.3 kN)

Thrust to weight ratio F404: 4.8 (dry), 7.8 (afterburning)
Thrust to weight ratio RD33: 4.82 (dry), 7.9 (afterburning)

PS: Indian HAL Tejas are powered by GE F404 engines.
JF-17 are powered by RD93 (a modified version of RD33)

Engine data for RD-93 MA is not very clear except that its maximum thrust is around 93 kN to 98 kN.
Engine improvement I mentioned earlier in my previous post reveals that dry thrust will improve ie greater than 50 kN. Exactly how much? Not sure....

Now coming to cost comparison Western vs Asian.
Price of Western equipment will always be higher mainly because of high cost of human resource, high cost to cover safety and environmental issues etc. If Asians pay more to cover safety and environmental issues, their prices will also shoot up.
 
Following engine data is extracted from wikipedia for both General Electric F404-GE402 and Klimov RD-33:

Mil thrust F404: 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN)
Mil thrust RD33: 11,230 lbf (50.0 kN)

Thrust with afterburner F404: 17,700 lbf (78.7 kN)
Thrust with afterburner RD33: 18,285 lbf (81.3 kN)

Thrust to weight ratio F404: 4.8 (dry), 7.8 (afterburning)
Thrust to weight ratio RD33: 4.82 (dry), 7.9 (afterburning)

PS: Indian HAL Tejas are powered by GE F404 engines.
JF-17 are powered by RD93 (a modified version of RD33)

Engine data for RD-93 MA is not very clear except that its maximum thrust is around 93 kN to 98 kN.
Engine improvement I mentioned earlier in my previous post reveals that dry thrust will improve ie greater than 50 kN. Exactly how much? Not sure....

Now coming to cost comparison Western vs Asian.
Price of Western equipment will always be higher mainly because of high cost of human resource, high cost to cover safety and environmental issues etc. If Asians pay more to cover safety and environmental issues, their prices will also shoot up.

Ge 414 now in jas-39 and hal compare 93MA to 414


https://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f414-engine
 
No announcement from Oem on 93MA nor from China [emoji630] or pac yet ????

Let’s see
 
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Ge 414 now in jas-39 and hal compare 93MA to 414


https://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f414-engine


General Electric F414 was evolved from F404.

Few major differences are
1. Large fan section (13 cm longer) resulting increase in airflow mass by 16%,
2. First three stages of HP compressor are blisks (integrally bladed rotors) rather than dovetailed blades (individual removable blades). Probably HP compressor stages are reduced to six for more advance derivative.
3. Combuster shortened by 2.5 cm
4. Afterburner section shortened by 10 cm
5. FADEC guided F414 uses fuel from aircraft’s fuel system as hydraulic fluid to actuate “fueldraulic” system (actuators) of convergent-divergent nozzle in the afterburner section.

16% increase in airflow mass and improved FADEC resulted in larger thrust than F404.

57.8 kN (13,000 lbf) military thrust
97.9 kN (22,000 lbf) with afterburner

Now referring to the article uploaded by you on WS-13 and RD-33/93 up-gradation, the increase in mass airflow is 6 % for RD-33 after inlet fan modification. This increase will certainly improve engine thrust. Klimov is claiming that max thrust of RD-93MA will be 93kN. However mil thrust is not specified.

While searching on RD-93 data I found an old but very informative article at http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/rd-33/

The article mentions about a derivative RD-33K which is to be used in naval version of Mig-29. The modifications mentioned are similar as discussed earlier. Interestingly full specifications of RD-33K are given in the article and some parameters are mentioned below:

55 kN military thrust
88 kN with afterburner
94 kN extraordinary thrust

Another interesting fact is that Indians were offered to manufacture RD-33 MK at their facility (year 2004) and this derivative was developed from the RD-33 3M Series and retains all of its benefits such as extraordinary thrust, corrosion protection, smokeless engine, reduced thermal visibility, tropical operation, BARK-88 control block ie upgraded FADEC, etc. and thrust vectoring nozzle. Some specs are as under:

53 kN military thrust
88 kN with afterburner
93 kN extraordinary thrust

PS: Most probably more fuel is being injected in combustion chamber to achieve extra ordinary thrust during takeoff from aircraft carrier. This selection must be restricted for very short period and only to be used during takeoff or critical combat situation, as prolong use may cause excessive turbine fatigue or failure due to high inlet turbine temperature (T4).

The article also mentions that four RD-33N were exported to china in late 90s, where they underwent tests on
FC-1. RD-33N were designed for Mig-21 and its export variant SMR-95 was offered to South Africa to power their Mirage III and Mirage F-1. Hence RD-93 was developed from RD-33N and exported to China to power FC-1/JF-17 and J-10. By the end of 2004 China negotiated to produce RD-93 engines under license. The specs for this engine are given below:

50.4 kN military thrust
83 kN with afterburner

A cheap solution to enhance air war capacity!!!!

This article also revealed in great detail that how SMR-95 was evolved. It is developed to power South African Mirage III and V but the export contract could not be materialized.

There was a rumor that PAF was negotiating to buy RD-93 engines directly from Russia. Why?
Note that China already bought 100 RD 93 engines and further procurement of 500 engines were under negotiation (probably materialized as around 130 JF-17 were already built)

PAC MRF overhaul Mirage III and V aircraft. During overhaul the aircraft is completely striped off and detail inspection of airframe structure is being carried out. Defective structures can be replaced with new ones prepared at manufacturing facility. Appreciate that AMF is capable to manufacture most of airframe structure of JF-17 and K-8. That means they have the capability to build bulk heads to replace defective ones for Mirages. By doing so, airframe life can be extend may be for another 20 years or less.

If refurbished airframe with extended life powerd by new powerful RD-93/SMR-95/RD-33N engine fitted with latest avionics suits (ECM/EW), AESA radar, HMD, IRST, HUD, glass cockpit and integrated with every available AA, AG and AS weapons, the Mirage will become a super Mirage – a lethal 4++ weapon platform.
 
You shouldn't compare RD93 and F404 with just two sets of thrust numbers. A lot happens in between and it matters how/when those numbers are reached.
 
General Electric F414 was evolved from F404.

Few major differences are
1. Large fan section (13 cm longer) resulting increase in airflow mass by 16%,
2. First three stages of HP compressor are blisks (integrally bladed rotors) rather than dovetailed blades (individual removable blades). Probably HP compressor stages are reduced to six for more advance derivative.
3. Combuster shortened by 2.5 cm
4. Afterburner section shortened by 10 cm
5. FADEC guided F414 uses fuel from aircraft’s fuel system as hydraulic fluid to actuate “fueldraulic” system (actuators) of convergent-divergent nozzle in the afterburner section.

16% increase in airflow mass and improved FADEC resulted in larger thrust than F404.

57.8 kN (13,000 lbf) military thrust
97.9 kN (22,000 lbf) with afterburner

Now referring to the article uploaded by you on WS-13 and RD-33/93 up-gradation, the increase in mass airflow is 6 % for RD-33 after inlet fan modification. This increase will certainly improve engine thrust. Klimov is claiming that max thrust of RD-93MA will be 93kN. However mil thrust is not specified.

While searching on RD-93 data I found an old but very informative article at http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/rd-33/

The article mentions about a derivative RD-33K which is to be used in naval version of Mig-29. The modifications mentioned are similar as discussed earlier. Interestingly full specifications of RD-33K are given in the article and some parameters are mentioned below:

55 kN military thrust
88 kN with afterburner
94 kN extraordinary thrust

Another interesting fact is that Indians were offered to manufacture RD-33 MK at their facility (year 2004) and this derivative was developed from the RD-33 3M Series and retains all of its benefits such as extraordinary thrust, corrosion protection, smokeless engine, reduced thermal visibility, tropical operation, BARK-88 control block ie upgraded FADEC, etc. and thrust vectoring nozzle. Some specs are as under:

53 kN military thrust
88 kN with afterburner
93 kN extraordinary thrust

PS: Most probably more fuel is being injected in combustion chamber to achieve extra ordinary thrust during takeoff from aircraft carrier. This selection must be restricted for very short period and only to be used during takeoff or critical combat situation, as prolong use may cause excessive turbine fatigue or failure due to high inlet turbine temperature (T4).

The article also mentions that four RD-33N were exported to china in late 90s, where they underwent tests on
FC-1. RD-33N were designed for Mig-21 and its export variant SMR-95 was offered to South Africa to power their Mirage III and Mirage F-1. Hence RD-93 was developed from RD-33N and exported to China to power FC-1/JF-17 and J-10. By the end of 2004 China negotiated to produce RD-93 engines under license. The specs for this engine are given below:

50.4 kN military thrust
83 kN with afterburner

A cheap solution to enhance air war capacity!!!!

This article also revealed in great detail that how SMR-95 was evolved. It is developed to power South African Mirage III and V but the export contract could not be materialized.

There was a rumor that PAF was negotiating to buy RD-93 engines directly from Russia. Why?
Note that China already bought 100 RD 93 engines and further procurement of 500 engines were under negotiation (probably materialized as around 130 JF-17 were already built)

PAC MRF overhaul Mirage III and V aircraft. During overhaul the aircraft is completely striped off and detail inspection of airframe structure is being carried out. Defective structures can be replaced with new ones prepared at manufacturing facility. Appreciate that AMF is capable to manufacture most of airframe structure of JF-17 and K-8. That means they have the capability to build bulk heads to replace defective ones for Mirages. By doing so, airframe life can be extend may be for another 20 years or less.

If refurbished airframe with extended life powerd by new powerful RD-93/SMR-95/RD-33N engine fitted with latest avionics suits (ECM/EW), AESA radar, HMD, IRST, HUD, glass cockpit and integrated with every available AA, AG and AS weapons, the Mirage will become a super Mirage – a lethal 4++ weapon platform.
You are outlining what we already did for the Cheetah program; see the discussion on Mirage thread.
 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistans-pac-inaugurates-jf-17-integration-facility.648035/

Alan Warnes in his article published in AIN Online dated June 15, 2019, mentioned that next year (ie in year 2020) Air Engineering Depot 102 at PAF Base Faisal will start overhauling the jet's Klimov RD-93 powerplant.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-15/jf-17-thunder-lightning-strikes-twice

102 MU Engineering Depot is already overhauling WP-5 (Klimov VK-1), WP-6 (Tumansky RD-9) and WP-13 (Tumansky R-13) engines, hence the unit is well-equipped to expeditiously establish the overhauling facility for Klimov RD-93 powerplant.

1. JF-17 Block 3 will be powered by RD-93.
2. Establishing an RD-93 overhauling facility is the first step towards ToT.
3. Continuous up-gradations to enhance service life and performance will be possible efficiently of course with the help of Klimov and Chinese technical expertise.
 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistans-pac-inaugurates-jf-17-integration-facility.648035/

Alan Warnes in his article published in AIN Online dated June 15, 2019, mentioned that next year (ie in year 2020) Air Engineering Depot 102 at PAF Base Faisal will start overhauling the jet's Klimov RD-93 powerplant.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-15/jf-17-thunder-lightning-strikes-twice

102 MU Engineering Depot is already overhauling WP-5 (Klimov VK-1), WP-6 (Tumansky RD-9) and WP-13 (Tumansky R-13) engines, hence the unit is well-equipped to expeditiously establish the overhauling facility for Klimov RD-93 powerplant.

1. JF-17 Block 3 will be powered by RD-93.
2. Establishing an RD-93 overhauling facility is the first step towards ToT.
3. Continuous up-gradations to enhance service life and performance will be possible efficiently of course with the help of Klimov and Chinese technical expertise.

The French mou signed at ides 2016 cover engine related components leading up o improvement which will further improve engine related performance ie mtbo mtbr etc

On the third day of the 2016 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS), Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with a French company.

Speaking to GEO News, Air Commodore (AC) Sajid Mahmoud Aman said that the MoU would provide PAC with the capability to manufacture hot area harnesses for use with engines such as the Klimov RD-93. Aman added that this is part of PAC’s effort to localize its maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) base.

Notes & Comments:

The French industry giant ECA Group is exhibiting at IDEAS. It is likely that ECA Group is the vendor from which PAC will be procuring the hardware outlined in the MoU.

Lastly fuel pumps filter etc part were change/upgraded to western types on older engines of Chinese origin to enhance its mtbo in the past as well I think
 
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The French mou signed at ides 2016 cover engine related components leading up o improvement which will further improve engine related performance ie mtbo mtbr etc

On the third day of the 2016 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS), Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with a French company.

Speaking to GEO News, Air Commodore (AC) Sajid Mahmoud Aman said that the MoU would provide PAC with the capability to manufacture hot area harnesses for use with engines such as the Klimov RD-93. Aman added that this is part of PAC’s effort to localize its maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) base.

Notes & Comments:

The French industry giant ECA Group is exhibiting at IDEAS. It is likely that ECA Group is the vendor from which PAC will be procuring the hardware outlined in the MoU.

Lastly fuel pumps filter etc part were change/upgraded to western types on older engines of Chinese origin to enhance its mtbo in the past as well I think

MTBR is mean time between failure. Sometimes aircraft components fail during operations (even newly installed one). Causes could be human error (mishandling) or material failure of the component. Data for both causes are maintained for detail technical and operational analysis. Based on the conclusion of analysis, appropriate corrective actions are taken. In case of human error, instructional documents such as flight manuals, technical orders and job guides are amended. For material failure, vendors of the component redesign or reprocess the failed parts of that component.

Most unpredictable and critical failures happen in the jet engine are due to combustion chamber or turbine blades failures. To improve MTBR of an engine, preventive periodic inspection (first line maintenance) is one of the good answers. For example, timely observing cracks in the combustion chamber or heat erosion signs on the turbine blades by carrying out bore-scope inspections will avoid subsequent major failure of the engine.

MTBO is mean time between overhaul. This is determined by the manufacturer of the component based on rigorous testing. In case of engine, it is determined after test running the engine in the test cell for thousands of hours and cycles and observing various failures during the test runs.

The improvement in MTBO means improvement in both design and material. Of course input (feedback) will come from first, second and third line maintenance.

The experience and skill gained at Atar engine overhaul facility at Kamra will certainly help in expeditiously establishing the RD-93 engine overhauling facility at 102 MU.
 
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistans-pac-inaugurates-jf-17-integration-facility.648035/

Alan Warnes in his article published in AIN Online dated June 15, 2019, mentioned that next year (ie in year 2020) Air Engineering Depot 102 at PAF Base Faisal will start overhauling the jet's Klimov RD-93 powerplant.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-15/jf-17-thunder-lightning-strikes-twice

102 MU Engineering Depot is already overhauling WP-5 (Klimov VK-1), WP-6 (Tumansky RD-9) and WP-13 (Tumansky R-13) engines, hence the unit is well-equipped to expeditiously establish the overhauling facility for Klimov RD-93 powerplant.

1. JF-17 Block 3 will be powered by RD-93.
2. Establishing an RD-93 overhauling facility is the first step towards ToT.
3. Continuous up-gradations to enhance service life and performance will be possible efficiently of course with the help of Klimov and Chinese technical expertise.
Why would they still be overhauling WP-6 as F-6/J-6s are long gone plus A5? I can understand WP5's for the Mig-17 UTI.
 
Why would they still be overhauling WP-6 as F-6/J-6s are long gone plus A5? I can understand WP5's for the Mig-17 UTI.

You are right. WP-5 and WP-6 was their past. What I meant here is that this unit already have the experience and skills to overhaul Russian engines.
 
No announcement from Oem on 93MA nor from China [emoji630] or pac yet ????

Let’s see
Follow the thread of JF-17. New WS-13IPE start serial production. With higher thrust and lifespan from start of this year.
 

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