Featured Russia would be developing upgraded engines for Pakistan's JF-17 fighters

[Ali_Baba]

Follow the thread of JF-17. New WS-13IPE start serial production. With higher thrust and lifespan from start of this year.

Higher that the RD93 or just higher than the predecessor of the WS-13 ? What is the reliability like compared to the RD93 while we are at it?

 

[Marker]

WS-13 is not exact replica of RD-33/93. It is a Chinese derivative.

PAF is already operating about 120 JF-17 powered by RD-93.

Hence PAF is establishing overhaul facility for RD-93 with the help of Russian engine manufacturers.

PAF is already trying/seeking western help to "modernize" this engine.

Approaching France is one of the example.

Electrical harnesses and engine fuel delivery system including digital fuel control system are the few areas where there is some indigenous progress, of course with certain outside help. That is why there is lesser smoke visible during abrupt movement of engine throttle.

In order to improve/eliminate the smoke problem, optimize metering and efficient burning of fuel inside the combustion chamber should be achieved. If achieved will result in greater range of aircraft flight.

For this PAF has to work with Klimov in following possible areas:

1. Engine fuel deliver system which include fuel pump, hydro-mechanical fuel control unit and digitally control FADEC.

2. Redesigning of combustion chamber for better vortex generation inside the chamber and re-positioning of fuel inlet nozzles.

 

[Marker]

Logical Steps towards Establishing In-country Jet Engine Manufacturing Facility

PAF cannot afford to establish a complete jet engine manufacturing facility on its own due to enormous cost.

After establishment of RD-93 overhauling facility, the next logical step towards ToT is importing of knock down kits of RD-93 instead of complete engines for PAF JF-17 aircraft.

Establishment of engine knock down kit assembly facility will be another stepping stage for PAF towards engine manufacturing.

After gaining experience by establishing KDK assembly facility, PAF must decide to seek collaboration with local and foreign vendors to manufacture engine parts.

Manufacturing of engine plumbing, electrical harnesses, ignition plugs and nozzle actuators for RD-93 should be the next stepping stage of collaboration.

Manufacturing of engine bearings, engine accessory gearbox, engine fuel delivery components including engine fuel pump, hydro-mechanical fuel control unit, digital fuel control unit and components of engine lubrication system would be next major stage of collaboration.

Finally manufacturing of main engine modules including fan unit, core compressor unit, combustion chamber, LP and HP turbine units, afterburner rings, engine tail pipe and nozzle would be the most critical and costliest stage of collaboration.

All this will require a dedicated, well knitted and highly professional team lead by sincere and shrewd commanders like AM Shahid Latif our JF-17 hero.

Setting up of above mentioned in-country manufacturing facilities is not easy and will drain lot of PAF precious resources and time but in the end it will be worth it.

These facilities should not only build parts and components for RD-93 but also for other engines. These facilities should be able to attract foreign manufacturers for joint venture contracts.

Once these facilities start generating their own finances, then Pakistan should move toward jet engines R&D.

 

[khanasifm]

There is nothing in news about the progress of Rd-93MA since it was announced back in 14/15 correct nothing from Oem so no one knows of 93MA got funded or not and any work was completed ??

Lastly just because paf is happy with Rd does not mean that Russia may veto sales to another country so ws-13 is to break free plus nothing stopping paf from having at least a choice for future once ws-13 has matured I guess time will tell

 

[Armchair]

Assembling knocked down kits (CKD) has never been a step to indigenous production for third world countries. So many cases were this was a dead end to development.

Truth is, research and innovation takes a mindset change, not a CKD kit. But this lesson cannot be learned because the mindset is such that it does not allow us to progress beyond.

 

[Marker]

There is nothing in news about the progress of Rd-93MA since it was announced back in 14/15 correct nothing from Oem so no one knows of 93MA got funded or not and any work was completed ??

Lastly just because paf is happy with Rd does not mean that Russia may veto sales to another country so ws-13 is to break free plus nothing stopping paf from having at least a choice for future once ws-13 has matured I guess time will tell

WS-13 is not a copy of RD-33/93. It is a derivative of RD-33/93.

PAF is already flying more than 100 JF-17 with RD-93. Therefore switching to WS-13 is not a good choice.

PAF should move slowly towards ToT of RD-93. Collaborations wit Russia, China and Turkey should be initiated.

Alan Warnes in his article published in AIN Online dated June 15, 2019, mentioned that next year (ie in year 2020) Air Engineering Depot 102 at PAF Base Faisal will start overhauling the jet's Klimov RD-93 powerplant.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-15/jf-17-thunder-lightning-strikes-twice

This is the first step towards ToT. Following major facilities will be established to support the engine overhauling process:

1. Specialist tooling to disassemble and assemble the engine parts.

2. Factory level repairing technology of engine parts.

3. Specialist rigs and testers to test various engine components after overhauling.

4. Engine test cell equipment for RD-93.

 

[StormBreaker]

WS-13 is not a copy of RD-33/93. It is a derivative of RD-33/93.

PAF is already flying more than 100 JF-17 with RD-93. Therefore switching to WS-13 is not a good choice.

PAF should move slowly towards ToT of RD-93. Collaborations wit Russia, China and Turkey should be initiated.

Alan Warnes in his article published in AIN Online dated June 15, 2019, mentioned that next year (ie in year 2020) Air Engineering Depot 102 at PAF Base Faisal will start overhauling the jet's Klimov RD-93 powerplant.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-15/jf-17-thunder-lightning-strikes-twice

This is the first step towards ToT. Following major facilities will be established to support the engine overhauling process:

1. Specialist tooling to disassemble and assemble the engine parts.

2. Factory level repairing technology of engine parts.

3. Specialist rigs and testers to test various engine components after overhauling.

4. Engine test cell equipment for RD-93.

@aliyusuf Can we connect it to our conversation on other thread or not ? Although it would be a loose connect

 

[Marker]

Assembling knocked down kits (CKD) has never been a step to indigenous production for third world countries. So many cases were this was a dead end to development.

Truth is, research and innovation takes a mindset change, not a CKD kit. But this lesson cannot be learned because the mindset is such that it does not allow us to progress beyond.

After establishing overhauling facility, assembling of CKD will require few additional specialist tooling, jigs and testers. This will be next stage of ToT.

During the induction phase of Saab MFI-17 in PAF, the aircraft were received in the form of CDK. These were assembled at AMF Kamra. AMF gradually established manufacturing capabilities of various parts with the help of manufacturer. Finally AMF was able to manufacture complete aircraft - Mushshak and Super Mushshak.

Establishing a jet engine manufacturing facility is more difficult than establishing a manufacturing facility for airframe of an aeroplane. Needs huge amount of finance and skilled human resource. But in the end it will worth.

Therefore, I am recommending to gradually upgrade the overhauling facility, being established at 102 AED Faisal this year, into a manufacturing facility.

About 15-20% of PAF engineers are highly qualified PhDs and very much capable to carryout research and innovation. The only hindrance for them is lack of infrastructure. By establishing a full-fledged manufacturing facility for RD-93, a starting infrastructure will be provided to these people to use their skills to design new engine components and new engines.

 

[Ultima Thule]

After establishing overhauling facility, assembling of CKD will require few additional specialist tooling, jigs and testers. This will be next stage of ToT.

During the induction phase of Saab MFI-17 in PAF, the aircraft were received in the form of CDK. These were assembled at AMF Kamra. AMF gradually established manufacturing capabilities of various parts with the help of manufacturer. Finally AMF was able to manufacture complete aircraft - Mushshak and Super Mushshak.

Establishing a jet engine manufacturing facility is more difficult than establishing a manufacturing facility for airframe of an aeroplane. Needs huge amount of finance and skilled human resource. But in the end it will worth.

Therefore, I am recommending to gradually upgrade the overhauling facility, being established at 102 AED Faisal this year, into a manufacturing facility.

About 15-20% of PAF engineers are highly qualified PhDs and very much capable to carryout research and innovation. The only hindrance for them is lack of infrastructure. By establishing a full-fledged manufacturing facility for RD-93, a starting infrastructure will be provided to these people to use their skills to design new engine components and new engines.

Still no confirmation bro whether Block-3 will using WS-13E or RD-93MA

 

[aliyusuf]

@aliyusuf Can we connect it to our conversation on other thread or not ? Although it would be a loose connect

How do you want to do it?

 

[Marker]

Still no confirmation bro whether Block-3 will using WS-13E or RD-93MA

Till now there was no statement from PAF Air-officers about installation of WS-13 on JF-17 Block 3. The rumor is probably coming from Chinese source(s).

Establishing RD-93 overhauling facility at 102 AED is one strong indication that the new JF-17s will be powered by RD-93s.

Up-gradation of RD-93 is another story.

PAF has already done some up-gradation in fuel delivery and electronic fuel control system. That is why we do not observe smoke coming out from exhaust.

Russians were also doing some modification on inlet fan, combustion chamber, HP and LP turbines. However, there is no official acknowledgement about upgraded version of RD-93.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Till now there was no statement from PAF Air-officers about installation of WS-13 on JF-17 Block 3. The rumor is probably coming from Chinese source(s).

Establishing RD-93 overhauling facility at 102 AED is one strong indication that the new JF-17s will be powered by RD-93s.

Up-gradation of RD-93 is another story.

PAF has already done some up-gradation in fuel delivery and electronic fuel control system. That is why we do not observe smoke coming out from exhaust.

Russians were also doing some modification on inlet fan, combustion chamber, HP and LP turbines. However, there is no official acknowledgement about upgraded version of RD-93.

sir overhaul facilities to maintains older Block-1/2 engines, this doesn't meas that we are showing interest on RD-93 MA engine, as one Senior member here named @Dazzler hinted that block-3 will have WS-13E and in block-3 first flight it had a WS-13E rather then RD-93 or upgrades of RD-93

 

[StormBreaker]

sir overhaul facilities to maintains older Block-1/2 engines, this doesn't meas that we are showing interest on RD-93 MA engine, as one Senior member here named @Dazzler hinted that block-3 will have WS-13E and in block-3 first flight it had a WS-13E rather then RD-93 or upgrades of RD-93

As i recall, Dazzler later on, and i was also in that thread, giving my views, debunked the claim of WS-13E, it was clearly a RD-93.
@Deino

 

[Ultima Thule]

As i recall, Dazzler later on, and i was also in that thread, giving my views, debunked the claim of WS-13E, it was clearly a RD-93.
@Deino

Chinese blog post Top81.cn huiatong also stated the same sir block-3 had been flied with standard engine (RD-93) but i thinks it was his personal guess/opinion i think

 

[StormBreaker]

Chinese blog post Top81.cn huiatong also stated the same sir block-3 had been flied with standard engine (RD-93) but i thinks it was his personal guess/opinion i think

WS-13 is a plug n play for Thunders now. It all comes down to preference of the User...
PAF might be waiting for WS-19 now...
Hoping to see it in later batches of Block 3 or on B4