Russia demand more money for Admiral Gorshkov

[TopCat]

I dont see any issue with Russians. India wants more customization and Russia wants money for the extra work. Why is it an issue at all?

 

[faithfulguy]

Buddy its the problem of my country, instead of acquiring important tech. even through reverse engineering which even defense officers have said to acquire it anyhow, we take it on ego and pride while countries like Russia demands more and more.

Should we be ethical to some extent, yes but if the other party is not showing it, its better to take things on our hand and do what's necessary.

If people of India can understand the benefits of reverse engineering, they will find that time involved in developing critical weaponry will drastically reduce so will the COST.

The money saved can be invested in other projects then.

In defense, no need to take higher ground of being ethical. Are US, France, GB, Russia ethical when they sell their product, some refuses to give important tech. and may impose sanctions at war time, some asks too much money and we have to pay a lot for it no matter how much we try to bargain.

If being a thief or copy cat makes my country more safe, I don't give a damn about what they call me. We kill for guarding our nation.

But Indians, especially the folks in here, pride in not reverse engineer other's weapons. Are u asking them to swallow their pride? And an excuse for incompetency?

 

[ironman1]

the thing is , if at the time of signing the contract it was stated that the cost of any mishap or complication will be paid by us , then it is ok for us to pay . but if not , then it is poor salesmanship .
RUSSIA is not USSR , that is a sad fact !

 

[faithfulguy]

the thing is , if at the time of signing the contract it was stated that the cost of any mishap or complication will be paid by us , then it is ok for us to pay . but if not , then it is poor salesmanship .
RUSSIA is not USSR , that is a sad fact !

Either way, India as no options but to comply. A total rip off by any definition

 

[KRAIT]

But Indians, especially the folks in here, pride in not reverse engineer other's weapons. Are u asking them to swallow their pride? And an excuse for incompetency?

Well the actual researchers and developers don't really care and rather focus on doing what is necessary. I don't know why DRDO didn't take help or reverse engineer Mirages ? Russia and France would have helped a lot in development of various projects which they are doing now.

In matter of pride, I think you are right. In matter of incompetency, I think we may not be that bad but reinventing the wheel instead of reverse engineering, was idiotic decision. May be we are incompetent in reverse eng. Whatever the case is, any delay just because of ego shouldn't be there.

One of the thing I like about and hate about China is that give them an idea, they do so much hard work that you can't catch up with them. Its bad because the base idea was yours but the later development become theirs which is frustrating. But then one realizes that if they are doing the hard work and you are not, then its your fault and don't blame them. They are doing what's best for their national interest. They are completing the technological progress by jumping and reducing the gap.

Unfortunately, Indians learn it the hard way. Gorshkov deal was/is a wake up call and approach of India regarding Russia weaponry is changing.

 

[conworldus]

By all means, India's insistance to discard the asbestos was totally legit. That thing is very harmful and has been banned internationally for over a decade in ship building. The replacement material has been in use since.

There are only 2 possibilities for this failure: 1. The Russians are fvcking with India and deliberately destroyed the engine, or 2. The Russians simply have no experience refitting the carrier and they haven't even mastered some old tech. Remember, all the USSR carrier work was done in Ukraine, not Russia.

The responsibility lies with Russia, but I guess India will have to pay.

 

[帅的一匹]

Buddy its the problem of my country, instead of acquiring important tech. even through reverse engineering which even defense officers have said to acquire it anyhow, we take it on ego and pride while countries like Russia demands more and more.

Should we be ethical to some extent, yes but if the other party is not showing it, its better to take things on our hand and do what's necessary.

If people of India can understand the benefits of reverse engineering, they will find that time involved in developing critical weaponry will drastically reduce so will the COST.

The money saved can be invested in other projects then.

In defense, no need to take higher ground of being ethical. Are US, France, GB, Russia ethical when they sell their product, some refuses to give important tech. and may impose sanctions at war time, some asks too much money and we have to pay a lot for it no matter how much we try to bargain.

If being a thief or copy cat makes my country more safe, I don't give a damn about what they call me. We kill for guarding our nation.

We will show you the power of these upgraded copy cats in the war with Japan if occurence happens.

 

[KRAIT]

We will show you the power of these upgraded copy cats in the war with Japan if occurence happens.

Have I offended you...wasn't my intention.....Don't take the last line otherwise...modifying it...My apologies.

 

[帅的一匹]

Well the actual researchers and developers don't really care and rather focus on doing what is necessary. I don't know why DRDO didn't take help or reverse engineer Mirages ? Russia and France would have helped a lot in development of various projects which they are doing now.

In matter of pride, I think you are right. In matter of incompetency, I think we may not be that bad but reinventing the wheel instead of reverse engineering, was idiotic decision. May be we are incompetent in reverse eng. Whatever the case is, any delay just because of ego shouldn't be there.

One of the thing I like about and hate about China is that give them an idea, they do so much hard work that you can't catch up with them. Its bad because the base idea was yours but the later development become theirs which is frustrating. But then one realizes that if they are doing the hard work and you are not, then its your fault and don't blame them. They are doing what's best for their national interest. They are completing the technological progress by jumping and reducing the gap.

Unfortunately, Indians learn it the hard way. Gorshkov deal was/is a wake up call and approach of India regarding Russia weaponry is changing.

You shoud not deny a reasonable way of cutting down cost because of pride and ego. If Indians think purchasing instead of reverse engineering will make your western friend happy and respect you for the price you pay, that's really wrong ! Unlike China,India got no weapon sanction imposed from west. The more you buy, the less chance you could stand a chance to win over China. So wake up , god Damn, seem like i'm a patriotic Indians !!

 

[帅的一匹]

Have I offended you...wasn't my intention.....Don't take the last line otherwise...modifying it...My apologies.

No offend taken, you are the most reasonable and humble Indians in this forum. The only one dare to tell the truth for Indian military potential risk. I 100% agree and respect you~
And never worry West will sanction you because of reverse engineering, they need your mammoth maket for make their living. I mean India should buy more while reverse engineering those purchased one, rather than just sit there and waiting for passive tech transfer.

 

[mfreak]

Except for the bold part, i totally agree with you.

Its not any different. Back in the days of the cold war, the Soviet Union and the US were enemies. And they followed this enemy of my enemy, is my friend principle. Today, China does the same thing. Yes Pakistan and China have good relations, but its got nothing to do with friendship as such. They both collaborate cuz both of them have border issues with India. This is nothing more than politics.

 

[shuttler]

By all means, India's insistance to discard the asbestos was totally legit. That thing is very harmful and has been banned internationally for over a decade in ship building. The replacement material has been in use since.

There are only 2 possibilities for this failure: 1. The Russians are fvcking with India and deliberately destroyed the engine, or 2. The Russians simply have no experience refitting the carrier and they haven't even mastered some old tech. Remember, all the USSR carrier work was done in Ukraine, not Russia.

The responsibility lies with Russia, but I guess India will have to pay.

of course indians are obliged to pay. no doubt about that! who is going to take over the russian left over?

about asbestos, an experienced contract reviewer should have the specs put in very details which will form part and parcel of the contract! If the indians were sleeping, dont blame the russians.

 

[KRAIT]

of course indians are obliged to pay. no doubt about that! who is going to take over the russian left over?

about asbestos, an experienced contract reviewer should have the specs put in very details which will form part and parcel of the contract! If the indians were sleeping, dont blame the russians.

Bang on target post. It was our failure. We failed to check everything and now we are complaining about it.

Problem is we are trying to brush off our failure and putting all blame on Russians. They did what they wanted to ? For them asbestos was not the problem. But having said that, if boiler didn't work at maximum capacity, we should penalize for that only.

 

[Beast]

Either way, India as no options but to comply. A total rip off by any definition

I dont think is rip off. They give advise and you don't heed. Problem occurs and it will be the customer's fault rather than the contractor fault. Sometimes, its difficult to do business with Indian. Russia knows that and they play their cards well.

 

[KRAIT]

Its not any different. Back in the days of the cold war, the Soviet Union and the US were enemies. And they followed this enemy of my enemy, is my friend principle. Today, China does the same thing. Yes Pakistan and China have good relations, but its got nothing to do with friendship as such. They both collaborate cuz both of them have border issues with India. This is nothing more than politics.

Its a way complicated scenario but lets not discuss this on this thread. I think there is one thread for the particular questions you are raising.