Russia Battles China Over Bangladesh

[Contrarian]

The article also implies in cold war era it had been fairly easy to purchase Russian arms on cash or credit. But, to my knowledge, BD didn't made any military purchase from Russia at that time. I think it had something to do with India-Russia relationship/defence co-operation as BD Army has perceived India as a defence threat (and is not supposed to buy the same/similar arms/equipment and perhaps even from the same manufacturer).

What you list is not correct. The main reason is far more mundane - BD simply did not have the money to put in expensive arms then. The Chinese are far cheaper.

After 3 decades of continually improving its society and economy, BD is today in a position to buy such arms.

Buying or not buying any weapon on account of India is not an issue for BD. Practically nothing that BD can buy would create even a minor deterrence or even delay if India wages war against BD. The difference is simply too big to be bridged. That however is entirely irrelevant, considering that India and BD would never go to war.

The second factor- maybe- can be that having similar equipment that India has has of Russian origin, it would tremendously reduce the maintenance and ownership costs for BD. The know how and other things can be shared. It would result in a far higher uptime for the military equipment than otherwise.

For example - India and Malaysia share the same for Scorpene submarines.
The Su-30's that Indonesia bought have Indian components - including the mission computer - and IAF pilots trained the Indonesians. All the support, maintenance, etc would be done in India and with Indian engineers. All this dramatically lowers the costs for other countries to have this done in India rather than Russia along with a lower down time for the equipment.

 

[Skallagrim]

What you list is not correct. The main reason is far more mundane - BD simply did not have the money to put in expensive arms then. The Chinese are far cheaper.

After 3 decades of continually improving its society and economy, BD is today in a position to buy such arms.

Buying or not buying any weapon on account of India is not an issue for BD. Practically nothing that BD can buy would create even a minor deterrence or even delay if India wages war against BD. The difference is simply too big to be bridged. That however is entirely irrelevant, considering that India and BD would never go to war.

The second factor- maybe- can be that having similar equipment that India has has of Russian origin, it would tremendously reduce the maintenance and ownership costs for BD. The know how and other things can be shared. It would result in a far higher uptime for the military equipment than otherwise.

For example - India and Malaysia share the same for Scorpene submarines.
The Su-30's that Indonesia bought have Indian components - including the mission computer - and IAF pilots trained the Indonesians. All the support, maintenance, etc would be done in India and with Indian engineers. All this dramatically lowers the costs for other countries to have this done in India rather than Russia along with a lower down time for the equipment.

Saying India and BD would never go to war is either naive or deceptive. It's a corollary to assuming two neighboring nations differing in values and ideology can never have any coflicting interests.

 

[kurup]

Saying India and BD would never go to war is either naive or deceptive. It's a corollary to assuming two neighboring nations differing in values and ideology can never have any coflicting interests.

Have conflicting interests doesnot mean will go to war.

 

[Contrarian]

India and BD don't have differing ideology or values. That is the crux.

 

[Skallagrim]

Have conflicting interests doesnot mean will go to war.

True, but it's a necessary condition for going to war.

India and BD don't have differing ideology or values. That is the crux.

You may think so.

 

[Contrarian]

True, but it's a necessary condition for going to war.



You may think so.

It is a fact. Till the time Jamaat comes to power in BD, or the people of BD become wahabized/salafized like Pakistani's, they will believe in having a BD that is prosperous, value diversity, treat all their citizens as equal and not have Islamic xenophobia(like Pakistan).

Till the above 4 conditions exist, India and BD share fundamental values.

 

[asad71]

1. This deal seems to have been motivated by kick-back collection at both ends. Russian eqpt would largely be discarded once BAL exits. BD has a highly professional officer corps. They have been exposed to the best of eqpt during their UN service and foreign courses. They would know US eqpt is the best but it is also best to avoid getting too cozy to the Americans. Anything American comes with conditions.

2. For us Chinese is the best option. China is a strategic partner, an ally and does not interfere in our affairs or ways. We can always rely on PRC in international diplomacy. China has built up our defense services almost single-handedly. Infrastructure, economic development, industrial development - you name it and China has come forward to help. Since present day India is about the only threat this delta has faced from time immemorial, it makes sense to rely on our Chinese friends who have always been sincere in her dealings. Most of all, China's and our strategic interests converge absolutely.

3. In short, BAL goes and Chinese arms enter in a bulk.

 

[Skallagrim]

It is a fact. Till the time Jamaat comes to power in BD, or the people of BD become wahabized/salafized like Pakistani's, they will believe in having a BD that is prosperous, value diversity, treat all their citizens as equal and not have Islamic xenophobia(like Pakistan).

Till the above 4 conditions exist, India and BD share fundamental values.

First of all, prosperity is not related to ideology/religiosity. However, now at least you admit that BD possesses the potential to be more religiously aware or according to your statement 'wahabized/salafized'- though a reversion to fundamentals of Islam is a far cry from extremism- manifests my point.

 

[Luffy 500]

No it has nothing to do with GOVT, the aircrafts from the russians are our only choice as Chinese are fairly new to it and Americans will probably not give theirs to us. But the other arms, we can get from Chinese for cheap so we do. We got the MBT from China and alot of ships too.

Arms are bought taking long term threat perception & the source into consideration. Russian arms are not good news for BD considering their alliance with dada, maintenance cost & uncertainty on the supply of spares. This is the main reason why we couldn't maintain corruption immersed migs. They may withdrew supply and technical assistance depending on diplomatic gameplay of dadas. They won't sacrifice billions of $$$ of time tested market for a puny & unpredictable market like BD when push comes to shove. Now before lecturing me about dada being BD's current friend/ally whatever, U should know the difference between an ally of a country & ally of a certain party. We have an unique political scenario not found in any other places on earth thanks to "ekkaturer pokker shakti BAL".

As for chinese aircrafts, U should better search up J11/J16, derived from russian su27/30. They will progress tremendously by the time we will decide to induct 4.5 gen planes. Also we can have access to western avionics for future J10s and JF17. Most important of all, they R a time tested trusted source with minimal maintenance cost.We can also go for Grippen or used F16 almost similar in cost to anything russian. I am not an expert but an aware commoner. U don't need to be an expert to deduce that. There is a reason why our military were never interested in russian stuffs apart from the corruption factor involved in awami arm purchase . I know ,this basic geopolitical norm won't get to your head, so don't bother replying me.

 

[Contrarian]

First of all, prosperity is not related to ideology/religiosity. Then at least you admit that BD possesses the potential to be more religiously aware or according to your statement 'wahabized/salafized'- though a reversion to fundamentals of Islam is a far cry from extremism- manifests my point.

Prosperity is indeed related with ideology not religiosity. BD does have the potential to be wahabized/salafized, which is very different from being religiously aware. Being religiously aware is not an issue at all. It would be a welcome thing, yet being wahabized/salafized would be disastrous for BD. It would lead to results not dissimilar to Pakistan or Afghanistan.

As i said, till the time the people of BD value diversity, respect all religions, they will prosper. These are the shared values with India that form the basis of any relationship.

 

[animelive]

Arms are bought taking long term threat perception & the source into consideration. Russian arms are not good news for BD considering their alliance with dada, maintenance cost & uncertainty on the supply of spares. This is the main reason why we couldn't maintain corruption immersed migs. They may withdrew supply and technical assistance depending on diplomatic gameplay of dadas. They won't sacrifice billions of $$$ of time tested market for a puny & unpredictable market like BD when push comes to shove. Now before lecturing me about dada being BD's current friend/ally whatever, U should know the difference between an ally of a country & ally of a certain party. We have an unique political scenario not found in any other places on earth thanks to "ekkaturer pokker shakti BAL".

As for chinese aircrafts, U should better search up J11/J16, derived from russian su27/30. They will progress tremendously by the time we will decide to induct 4.5 gen planes. Also we can have access to western avionics for future J10s and JF17. Most important of all, they R a time tested trusted source with minimal maintenance cost.We can also go for Grippen or used F16 almost similar in cost to anything russian. I am not an expert but an aware commoner. U don't need to be an expert to deduce that. There is a reason why our military were never interested in russian stuffs apart from the corruption factor involved in awami arm purchase . I know ,this basic geopolitical norm won't get to your head, so don't bother replying me.

Someone didn't read the news about Khaleda's recent visit to India and her 180 degree change in mind perhaps.

Read my post again, Chinese have went up tremendously in there aircraft production in the last 2 decades but we need to wait another decade more for them to get more experienced. Now next up, someone also didn't read the refusal of US on the request of F-16 procurement. Perhaps you should do a little more research. Either way, i wouldn't be too fond of US alliance. Why? Pakistan, Iraq. If anyone is stupid enough to want to go under US influence, history will be repeated again. They hate Muslims, they hate Asians, better get over it. Are you saying that BTR 80, Mil 17, Antonov 32, and other Russian arms are despised in our Military? Cool story, needs a bit more dragons and shits.

 

[Luffy 500]

All over the world ,muslims value diversity and respect other religions not just BD. Other than malaunic propaganda about about muslims in other countries there is nothing to prove that non-muslims suffer in PAK, where there is literally chaotic war going on and ME where there is hardly any non-muslims. Nothing to do with "salafi/wahabi" as the malauns put it. I can only argue malauns who fart from their mouth ignorantly to do some study of ISLAM and read QURAN rather than brainwashing shiveshena/Fox news farts.

 

[Skallagrim]

Prosperity is indeed related with ideology not religiosity. BD does have the potential to be wahabized/salafized, which is very different from being religiously aware. Being religiously aware is not an issue at all. It would be a welcome thing, yet being wahabized/salafized would be disastrous for BD. It would lead to results not dissimilar to Pakistan or Afghanistan.

As i said, till the time the people of BD value diversity, respect all religions, they will prosper. These are the shared values with India that form the basis of any relationship.

We are going a bit off-topic. Anyway, BD people will continue to value diversity to a greater extent and surely tolerate other religions. Extremism is a state of mind and it's counter-productive, it can associate with any ideology upon earth. But people lacking a fundamental understanding of Islam may not get over the propagated stereotype of a Muslim.

 

[Luffy 500]

Someone didn't read the news about Khaleda's recent visit to India and her 180 degree change in mind perhaps.

This is not the first time that BKZ went there and she went their upon invitation from Dadas. Also note the recent article on washingtontimes, where she wrote "democracy in Bangladesh is undermined and its economic allegiance shifts toward other growing world powers". Also note the recent BNP remarks on BSF shooting. These may be political I am not debating that ,but your argument on BNP policy shift remains unfounded at least officially in the eyes of analyst and commoners.

Read my post again, Chinese have went up tremendously in there aircraft production in the last 2 decades but we need to wait another decade more for them to get more experienced.

another decade? Debatable but doesn't give ground for ill conceived, political agenda based procurement of russian planes.

Now next up, someone also didn't read the refusal of US on the request of F-16 procurement. Perhaps you should do a little more research.

I am not advocating US arms, it was just for the sake of argument. Anyway geopolitical interest and strategy change with time and 2013 is not same as 1990s. But in case of Russia I don't see their policy shifting under current geopolitical set up mainly due to the grip they have on the time tested 2nd largest amrs market in the world & need for that trusted partner to help them counter rising China for influence in C.asia. They really don't trust China and fear it. No rocket science but common sense. As I said they won't sacrifice billions of $$$ of time tested market for a puny & unpredictable market like BD .

Either way, i wouldn't be too fond of US alliance. Why? Pakistan, Iraq. If anyone is stupid enough to want to go under US influence, history will be repeated again.

Iraq was due to Oil. Its in ME of all places. As for PAK, I see U bring PAK eg. in every argument. A war is going on there flamed by US as well as Dadas. They R a direct sufferer of WOT and have been blessed with chronic civil war strife AF as a neighbor. U see they R fending off well against US and also they R in a strategically very important location in the world where great game is being played for over 150 years and whose importance has new found prominence a world stage. Our strategic importance albeit prominent but is not as great as their's and is fundamentally dissimilar in nature. They also have resident dalals in their country as well.

And people power rules. A gov that has support of its people can fend off against any power, take eg. of Islamist ruled Egypt & Turkey. Gov that have ideological & strategic differences with US's new found crusade.

They hate Muslims, they hate Asians, better get over it.

And russians love muslim?

Are you saying that BTR 80, Mil 17, Antonov 32, and other Russian arms are despised in our Military? Cool story, needs a bit more dragons and shits.

Don't know. But comparing BTR 80 & few Mil17 with 4.5 gen fighters is like comparing apples and oranges. As expected U clearly didn't get my previous post but bothered replying.

 

[Hammer-fist]

1. This deal seems to have been motivated by kick-back collection at both ends. Russian eqpt would largely be discarded once BAL exits. BD has a highly professional officer corps. They have been exposed to the best of eqpt during their UN service and foreign courses. They would know US eqpt is the best but it is also best to avoid getting too cozy to the Americans. Anything American comes with conditions.

2. For us Chinese is the best option. China is a strategic partner, an ally and does not interfere in our affairs or ways. We can always rely on PRC in international diplomacy. China has built up our defense services almost single-handedly. Infrastructure, economic development, industrial development - you name it and China has come forward to help. Since present day India is about the only threat this delta has faced from time immemorial, it makes sense to rely on our Chinese friends who have always been sincere in her dealings. Most of all, China's and our strategic interests converge absolutely.

3. In short, BAL goes and Chinese arms enter in a bulk.

1. Bangladesh and China have historical and strategic ties.

Russia is far away whereas China is a regional neighbour, China is closer to Bangladesh than Pakistan, Malaysia or even Mumbai.

2. China is a civilization thousands of years old, and older than Christianity. America is 200+ years old and the current Russian state is a millenia old whereas China is far far older.

China is being spoken of as the new leading power in the world even by the Americans.

3. China is progressing rapidly in technology both civilian and military and their military equipment will surpass that of the Russians in the future.

4. We have military joint ventures with China e.g. production of naval craft and no JVs with Russia which has JVs with India.

5. We have far more deals and relations even in the civilian sphere with China than with Russia and China is one of our main investors.

6. China will support Bangladesh over India in any war, whereas Russia will either stay neutral or support India.

7. Though we are not under the Chinese "nuclear umbrella", it can be argued that in some ways we are under their "UN veto umbrella" as China will not allow certain things to be ever done to Bangladesh via the UN in the same way they have refused to allow America to pass UN decisions against Iran.

I could add more...but there is no comparison between Russia and China, the latter being our long-term strategic ally and fellow Asian partner.