Rising above differences!

[Indus Pakistan]

Jinnah actually ordered military takeover of Kashmir, but since Kashmir was already ceded to India by their current ruler, there wasn't much Pakistani military could do. If fighting had occurred, it would be comical. One part of British Indian army fighting another part who trained together to reach that far. It would have been like wars fought in early days of Islam where a father was fighting his own son who turned Muslim and thus switched sides.

Dang. Bingo. should have done FIRST. Early bird catches .........................

 

[Norwegian]

Wasn't it M.A.Jinnah who was in charge during Kashmir revolt back in 47-48?

Sure do.

Dang. Bingo. should have done FIRST. Early bird catches .........................

October 1947
Addressing a public meeting at Hazuri Bagh, Srinagar on 1 October 1947, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah said, "Till the last drop of my blood, I will not believe in two-nation theory." On 2 October, the Working Committee of the National Conference met under Abdullah's presidency and decided to support accession to India; however, Maharaja Hari Singh wanted to remain independent.

Tribal forces from Pakistan attacked under the code name "Operation Gulmarg" to seize Kashmir. They moved along the Rawalpindi-Murree-Muzaffarabad-Baramulla Road on 22 October 1947 with Pakistani soldiers in civilianclothes. Muzaffarabad fell on 24 October 1947, and they captured Baramulla the following day. They looted, raped, killed, burned and vandalised shrines and temples. They raped and killed European nuns and nurses.[4] According to Tariq Ali, the local cinema became a "rape center".[5] The atrocities continued for several days.[6] Aeroplanes with Indian troops airlifted from Delhi the morning of 27 October could land at Srinagar airfield, since the tribal forces were still at Baramulla.
Baramulla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank Goodness they didn't reach Srinagar, or they would have done the same over there.

 

[Indika]

People who are all for peace do not realise that there are still books in parts of India talking about the greater India in schools and that is a nation which we expect peace from. What you teach your children is the sum of your intentions.

Proof please ? The boot is on the other foot. If India had spent so much time and effort indoctrinating its kids we would have had terrorists like pakistan has. Kids in india dont wake up chanting death to enemy or kashmir is ours holding plastic guns. Dont attribute some maniacs statement to the entire country.
By the way India is a way too big,diverse country to be influenced by one person or ideology.

Well both the countries conducted military action one defensive and other offensive. Both ended up occupying the territory. Now the sore loser goes around the town saying he wants more. So they dig up plebiscite,religion,Hyderabad...blah..blah. Wonder why dint pakistan accept UN resolution to vacate territory to hold plebiscite ?

Need to thank pakistan tribal raider's greediness and lust for saving kashmir valley. Lot of water (and blood) has flown down the indus river since 6 decades. Need to move on and not be stuck with historical baggage.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

October 1947
Addressing a public meeting at Hazuri Bagh, Srinagar on 1 October 1947, Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah said, "Till the last drop of my blood, I will not believe in two-nation theory." On 2 October, the Working Committee of the National Conference met under Abdullah's presidency and decided to support accession to India; however, Maharaja Hari Singh wanted to remain independent.

Tribal forces from Pakistan attacked under the code name "Operation Gulmarg" to seize Kashmir. They moved along the Rawalpindi-Murree-Muzaffarabad-Baramulla Road on 22 October 1947 with Pakistani soldiers in civilianclothes. Muzaffarabad fell on 24 October 1947, and they captured Baramulla the following day. They looted, raped, killed, burned and vandalised shrines and temples. They raped and killed European nuns and nurses.[4] According to Tariq Ali, the local cinema became a "rape center".[5] The atrocities continued for several days.[6] Aeroplanes with Indian troops airlifted from Delhi the morning of 27 October could land at Srinagar airfield, since the tribal forces were still at Baramulla.
Baramulla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank Goodness they didn't reach Srinagar, or they would have done the same over there.

There you are. What you pasted highlights the stupidity of Pak leadership including I might add Jinnah. Nobody start picking on me for being critical of Jinnah. No nobody is god. Humans make mistakes. Here are the key points that Pakistan should have done. To put it bluntly copy paste what India did to Hyderabad State.

1. (i) Pakistan should have launched "Police Action" code name "Operation Polo".
(ii) Pakistan instead chose "Operation Gulmarg"

2. (i) Pakistan Army should have been sent in like India did in Hyderabad with token police thrown in.
(ii) Pakistan instead sent in undisciplined tribal militia with token soldier without uniform ( why? )

3. The only all weather paved road into Kashmir valley in 1947 was the Rawalpindi-Murree-Muzaffarabad-Sirinagar Road a distance of less than 140 miles. Kashmir Valley was effectively landlocked into Pakistan as the only other route into Kashmir valley was the precarious road from Jammu which was not a all weather road. Only after India built Bannihal Tunnel in 1950s did India achieve full motorized access into the valley.

Despite the advantage of geography and having the largest HQ of Pakistan Army at the terminus of Srinangar-Rawalpindi Road which was the main route into the valley with distance less than 142 miles how Pakistan mucked this up speak volumes of the negligence if not criminal incompetance of Pakistan leadership. No amount of glossing over is going to change this fact.

Compare this with the flawless execution by India of the invasion of Hyderabad State which I might add was much larger then J&K.

In fact many at the time were angry at the criminal incompetance like for example Gen. Akbar Khan the man in charge of the Kashmir campaign was so disgusted that later he would be involved in the famous Rawalpindi Conspiracy to overthrow the government.

Akbar Khan (Pakistani general) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rawalpindi conspiracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For comparison again read how Nehru and India handled the much larger Hyderabad State invasion.

Hyderabad 1948: India's hidden massacre - BBC News
Indian integration of Hyderabad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jawahar Tunnel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Norwegian]

In fact many at the time were angry at the criminal incompetance like for example Gen. Akbar Khan the man in charge of the Kashmir campaign was so disgusted that later he would be involved in the famous Rawalpindi Conspiracy to overthrow the government.

Again, an angry army general taking "revenge" of his incompetency from the civilian government. I really cannot understand how British Indian Army that later became Pakistani Army and Indian Army evolved so differently....

Can some Indian friends of PDF help me out on this one? @levina @Mike_Brando @Force-India @SpArK

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Again, an angry army general taking "revenge" of his incompetency from the civilian government. I really cannot understand how British Indian Army that later became Pakistani Army and Indian Army evolved so differently....

Can some Indian friends of PDF help me out on this one? @levina @Mike_Brando @Force-India @SpArK

No offence but do you have cerebral issue in conceptuelizing? It was not General Akbar's incompetance for gawds sake. Was it not for him that tiny sliver they call AJK would have in in Indian hands also. Read the damn links man.

Suddenly my respect for the Norwegian educatiuon system has nose dived. We are not talking about the wrongs and rights of Kashmir issue. I was talking about the military side to it. Compare the way Nehru executed the invasion of Hyderabad State and then compare the cow boy f*cked up chicken sh*te way Pakistan government went about invading Kashmir. That was not General Akbar's fault. That was the political leaders who chose what to do. He was annoyed that Kashmir had been handled wrongly.

If you compare how India did hyderabad State and how Pakistan did Kashmir even chicken brains can see Pakistan f*cked up. Read the damn links.

 

[Norwegian]

No offence but do you have cerebral issue in conceptuelizing? It was not General Akbar's incompetance for gawds sake. Was it not for him that tiny sliver they call AJK would have in in Indian hands also. Read the damn links man.

I perfectly understood your points. If you study the entire course of war, Pakistan's army indeed reached all the way to Leh, before they were pushed back by the Indian army. Strategically located Kargil was already taken, but was lost due to poor fight against Indian offensive:

Indo-Pakistani War of 1947 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Suddenly my respect for the Norwegian educatiuon system has nose dived. We are not talking about the wrongs and rights of Kashmir issue. I was talking about the military side to it. Compare the way Nehru executed the invasion of Hyderabad State and then compare the cow boy f*cked up chick sh*te way Pakistan government went about invading Kashmir. That was not General Akbar's fault. That was the political leaders who chose what to do. He was annoyed that Kashmir had been handled wrongly.

Sorry, I was only educated here after class 7. So half of my education did happen in Pakistan, unfortunately
Pakistan's Army could never reach out to help State of Hyderabad, as that state was completely landlocked and India had air superiority over it, unlike the State of J&K that war partially landlocked against India.

If you compare how India did hyderabad State and how Pakistan did Kashmir even chicken brains can see Pakistan f*cked up. Read the damn links.

State of Hyderabad is not comparable to State of J&K. Pakistan could take Kashmir, but after heavy fighting with the Indian Army. Pakistan was in no position to defend Hyderabad, even if it chose to become part of Pakistan, which it didn't.

 

[jaatram]

No offence but do you have cerebral issue in conceptuelizing? It was not General Akbar's incompetance for gawds sake. Was it not for him that tiny sliver they call AJK would have in in Indian hands also. Read the damn links man.

Suddenly my respect for the Norwegian educatiuon system has nose dived. We are not talking about the wrongs and rights of Kashmir issue. I was talking about the military side to it. Compare the way Nehru executed the invasion of Hyderabad State and then compare the cow boy f*cked up chicken sh*te way Pakistan government went about invading Kashmir. That was not General Akbar's fault. That was the political leaders who chose what to do. He was annoyed that Kashmir had been handled wrongly.

If you compare how India did hyderabad State and how Pakistan did Kashmir even chicken brains can see Pakistan f*cked up. Read the damn links.

Nehru handled only Kashmir, and he royally fcuked it up for India and Pakistan both. It was Sardar Patel who handled the issue of Hyderabad and no one raised an eyebrow about it. We had few hiccups while capturing it. but there was no pussyfooting about it unlike in the case of Kashmir. Nehru went to the UN without consulting the cabinet regarding Kashmir. It was his own decision. Boundaries would have been far more different if Sardar Patel was at helm of things.

 

[Spectre]

Again, an angry army general taking "revenge" of his incompetency from the civilian government. I really cannot understand how British Indian Army that later became Pakistani Army and Indian Army evolved so differently....

Can some Indian friends of PDF help me out on this one? @levina @Mike_Brando @Force-India @SpArK

Though you haven't tagged me, I will attempt to answer.

It is important to note that early formative years are the most important in setting the direction of any institution.

1. Early and regular elections in India - Even though Congress remained the dominant political party in India till mid 70's elections were held every 5 years. Infact Nehru encouraged the opposition in Parliament and even gave in to their demands many times when he could have easily steam rolled the opposition. This ultimately resulted in resilient democracy and civilian leadership. No politician would have any sympathy for a army coup against their opponents.

2. Military Kept out of Limelight - Indian politicians have time and again enforced their supremacy over military. Since the independence, all ambitious generals were quickly shunted sometimes to detriment effect to Indian Military as in 1962. Defense Minister however incompetent reigned supreme over Armed Forces and was supported politically. Except for few generals in 1971 war almost no one in India outside military buffs can recalls name of top leadership of military at any point of time. This was carefully managed by Indian Politicians. Everyone knows about Lal Bahadur Shashtri and he gets all the credit for 1965 in Indian Propaganda. No generals were highlighted.

3. Honest Leadership till Indira Gandhi - Rot in Indian Politics started during the times of Indira Gandhi. Prior to that leaders were relatively honest and well meaning. They were also prominent from their days in India's Freedom Struggle.
Hence in absence of any suitable cause, Army could not step in to brush aside the politicians as they had public support.

4. Powerful Bureaucrats: Indian civil servants were utilized effectively to control internal matters of state and with lack of corruption in initial years served the public well.

These in addition to a conscious decision to use army as less as possible in internal insurgencies like Maoist threat has offered army relatively few footholds to entrench themselves in internal politics. By the time of 1980s the subservience of army to civilians was well entrenched in institutional memory of Indian military.

 

[M.SAAD]

I wonder why Pakistan didn't try to take Kashmir in 1962 on going Sino-India war???

Pakistan fought a full fledged war with India in 1965 over Kashmir, then why not in 1962? 3 years before? when India-China war was going on?

 

[Norwegian]

I wonder why Pakistan didn't try to take Kashmir in 1962 on going Sino-India war???

Pakistan fought a full fledged war with India in 1965, then why not in 1962? 3 years before? when India-China war was going on?

Like Palestinians, Pakistanis never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. @Atanz

 

[Spectre]

I wonder why Pakistan didn't try to take Kashmir in 1962 on going Sino-India war???

Pakistan fought a full fledged war with India in 1965, then why not in 1962? 3 years before? when India-China war was going on?

May be because Pakistan at the time considered China to be a threat. Alliances were still fluid then. It's only after 1965 that firm alliances were formed. In addition Pakistan was in US camp and I am not sure but US was hostile to China as well and would have helped India if not for Cuban Crisis.

 

[M.SAAD]

Like Palestinians, Pakistanis never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. @Atanz

I don't even think we 'deserve' Kashmir anymore, we have messed up just soo many times .


48,65,Kargil etc. We are probably lucky that Azad Kashmir & GB is still with us ..

 

[Norwegian]

Everyone knows about Lal Bahadur Shashtri and he gets all the credit for 1965 in Indian Propaganda.

I could never forget this historical photo of Shastri following Tashkent declaration. He had a height of a kid among so many great people:

I don't even think we 'deserve' Kashmir anymore, we have messed up just soo many times .

Same as Palestinians. They don't deserve an inch of Palestine, after messing it so many times. 47, 65, 71, 93 etc

 

[Spectre]

I could never forget this historical photo of Shastri with height of a kid among so many great people:

Same as Palestinians. They don't deserve an inch of Palestine, after messing it so many times. 47, 65, 71, 93 etc

He might be small in height but a giant in stature. This guy was the original common man who became the PM of India. When he died, he had no wealth to leave behind. Had so much integrity, resigned as railway minister voluntarily after a train crashed. After his resignation, he was entitled to benefits but refused to take them. Had no money to pay the paltry electricity bills of his house. In evenings he and his wife used to light candles in their house