Research Papers: Pakistani Aerospace Technologies

[S A L M A N.]

Is this usuall research paper or it means Pakistan is working on actual liquid propelled engine?
It will be great if they are working on SLV

From what @JamD has shared earlier, I can say that this is actual R&D for a real liquid engine that is in the works for a future SLV. However, the design presented in the research paper is too simplistic and impractical to be of much use in said SLV. However, one of the authors of the paper is an individual known to have worked at KRL and is now working on the liquid engine project. We may never know for sure.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

From what @JamD has shared earlier, I can say that this is actual R&D for a real liquid engine that is in the works for a future SLV. However, the design presented in the research paper is too simplistic and impractical to be of much use in said SLV. However, one of the authors of the paper is an individual known to have worked at KRL and is now working on the liquid engine project. We may never know for sure.

But they are aslo not going to release actual detailed engine design research papers online.this seems some initial research paper.

 

[S A L M A N.]

But they are aslo not going to release actual detailed engine design research papers online.this seems some initial research paper.

That is entirely possible. However, any technology related to liquid engines is not exactly ground breaking (unless you are sharing the dimensions of injector plates and injector holes, combustion chamber dimensions/pressures, etc). Engine gimballing systems are basically auxiliary/support systems. The other possibility for such a basic design may be the inexperience of Pakistani researchers/engineers in indigenous development of liquid engines and its supporting tech i.e. Pakistan has not worked on any liquid engines except those for the Ghauri (which were pretty basic Soviet-style engines with thrust vanes instead of gimballing)

 

[JamD]

is it possible for you to share this paper as well

Sorry I had to wipe that pdf of some identifying information. It's attached here.

Brother, actually what is your specialty in Aerospace engineering ?

Flight dynamics and control.

And I would like to know whether you are involved in fighter project in USA since you have got Master and Phd degree in US and possibly currently working in US Aerospace industry as well.

We have a saying in Pakistan on when we don't want to answer a probing question: "Sab bata doon?", which translates to "Should I tell you everything?" lol. Sorry I don't feel comfortable talking about these things on a forum. I hope you understand. Besides isn't it cooler if I am all mysterious ooooo

 

[LeGenD]

One of the best threads in a while. Appreciated.

 

[JamD]

Design of Engine Gimbaling Mechanism for Thrust Vector Control of Liquid Propellent Rocket Engine

A gimbaling mechanism for thrust vector control of a space launch vehicle’s first stage liquid propellent rocket engine

View attachment 786067View attachment 786068View attachment 786069

So this is awkward lol. I know all of the authors. Which means I know what this paper represents. Unfortunately, this is just a paper written due to a requirement by the university to "write a paper for practice". So really this is nothing real/serious.

However, this was a paper based on these students' FYP being advised by Dr.Ihtezaz Qamar, who I have mentioned on this forum before:

Again maybe. Dr.Ihtezaz Qamar (ex KRL) has been working on building a liquid-fueled rocket engine at IST for the past 7-8 years. I know that sounds like a toy project but he was given an entire lab for his own, and is left to his own devices because of the clout that he has. So MAYBE there was a serious liquid program running somewhere, which was linked with this university-level program run by Dr.Qamar.

And this is from 2014 so a lot has probably happened since. I do expect Dr.Qamar to have done some actual work.

On a related note - all of the authors except Dr.Qamar have migrated out of Pakistan. Make what you will of that.











For completeness I am reposting these papers here:

Computational Aerodynamics Study of Competing Conceptual Designs for Advance Tactical Fighter Aircraft

 

[JamD]

Sensitivity and Design Point Analysis of RD-93 Engine at Static Sea Level using Numerical Propulsion System Simulation

 

[S A L M A N.]

So this is awkward lol. I know all of the authors. Which means I know what this paper represents. Unfortunately, this is just a paper written due to a requirement by the university to "write a paper for practice". So really this is nothing real/serious.

However, this was a paper based on these students' FYP being advised by Dr.Ihtezaz Qamar, who I have mentioned on this forum before:

I live to see my tiny hopes dashed. But I should probably know better.

This 'write a paper for practice' problem is exactly why I haven't posted a lot of papers that were written by people at NRDI.

And this is from 2014 so a lot has probably happened since. I do expect Dr.Qamar to have done some actual work.

On a related note - all of the authors except Dr.Qamar have migrated out of Pakistan. Make what you will of that.

During my time at these 'university labs working on national-level projects', I have observed dozens of the best and brightest people spending 6-12 months working at the lab, getting a publication under their belt and then taking off for Germany, Canada or the US. The ones that remain are literally the worst of the lot (no offence meant) in that they do not have the intellectual vigor or mindset for this kind of work. In short, this frequent coming and going of people ensures zero practical progress on these projects.
Example: All projects mentioned by Admiral Abbasi in 2020 are at a virtual freeze because of this reason

 

[JamD]

I live to see my tiny hopes dashed. But I should probably know better.

This 'write a paper for practice' problem is exactly why I haven't posted a lot of papers that were written by people at NRDI.


During my time at these 'university labs working on national-level projects', I have observed dozens of the best and brightest people spending 6-12 months working at the lab, getting a publication under their belt and then taking off for Germany, Canada or the US. The ones that remain are literally the worst of the lot (no offence meant) in that they do not have the intellectual vigor or mindset for this kind of work. In short, this frequent coming and going of people ensures zero practical progress on these projects.
Example: All projects mentioned by Admiral Abbasi in 2020 are at a virtual freeze because of this reason

So you're taking revenge for me dashing your hopes?lol

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

During my time at these 'university labs working on national-level projects', I have observed dozens of the best and brightest people spending 6-12 months working at the lab, getting a publication under their belt and then taking off for Germany, Canada or the US. The ones that remain are literally the worst of the lot (no offence meant) in that they do not have the intellectual vigor or mindset for this kind of work. In short, this frequent coming and going of people ensures zero practical progress on these projects.
Example: All projects mentioned by Admiral Abbasi in 2020 are at a virtual freeze because of this reason

May be these bright people just come here to make their way to abroad.While people remaining in institutions just want to work for Pakistan.so this should not mean that they are not valuable people.

 

[JamD]

May be these bright people just come here to make their way to abroad.While people remaining in institutions just want to work for Pakistan.so this should not mean that they are not valuable people.

Yes, that is certainly a possibility. I have known many such people who's goal since day one has been to settle abroad.

However, there are also the other kind of people (I include myself in them). These people never even wanted to consider the possibility of settling abroad. They would actually get into arguments with people who would say to them "you'll never come back.". These people would argue with their own family who said stay abroad. That is how much they want to work for Pakistan. But the state of intellectual, economic, security, and legal affairs in the country is so bad (and getting worse) that these people are forced to do the cost-benefit analysis of what they'll suffer and what advantage their suffering will be to Pakistan.

A very good friend of mine who is in one of "those" places in Pakistan said and I quote:
"One one hand I feel brilliant minds like yours should work in Pakistan and bring latest research to aero industry. . . But on the other hand Pakistan industries are very resistant to change from their conventional practices. . . you will have to struggle at least for 3-5 years in order to bring some change. . . And these 3-5 years are not gonna be easy for guys like you. . . And after 5 years it could have gone both ways. . . Either you become sarkari noker or you can have a small group who is struggling to bring change. . . And Mostly what happen is people leave and go abroad. . .I am sorry its depressing but it is what it is.... There are very very few people in our setups who are welcoming to change and latest research work "

 

[S A L M A N.]

So you're taking revenge for me dashing your hopes?lol

Lol, nothing of the sort. Just trading relatable examples.

May be these bright people just come here to make their way to abroad.While people remaining in institutions just want to work for Pakistan.so this should not mean that they are not valuable people.

All I'm saying is that Pakistan does not have the enabling environment in which anyone would want to work here. "Jo yahan ruka hua hai, wo wohi hai jisko bahar bhaagne ka mauqa nahe mila"
The ones who work on these projects/labs for some time and then go abroad are actually really smart - they are saving themselves instead of going down with the sinking ship.
And the people I called "the worst" are just those whom I knew from my experiences (I'm sure there are a lot of great people who work here out of sheer patriotism) - the ones I knew weren't good engineers/researchers and were just inducted because of poor hiring standards and because of an unavailability of qualified people since no sane person would want to work in that environment (i.e. low pay, unprofessional leadership, fauji mindset, etc).

 

[Raider 21]

Yes, that is certainly a possibility. I have known many such people who's goal since day one has been to settle abroad.

However, there are also the other kind of people (I include myself in them). These people never even wanted to consider the possibility of settling abroad. They would actually get into arguments with people who would say to them "you'll never come back.". These people would argue with their own family who said stay abroad. That is how much they want to work for Pakistan. But the state of intellectual, economic, security, and legal affairs in the country is so bad (and getting worse) that these people are forced to do the cost-benefit analysis of what they'll suffer and what advantage their suffering will be to Pakistan.

A very good friend of mine who is in one of "those" places in Pakistan said and I quote:
"One one hand I feel brilliant minds like yours should work in Pakistan and bring latest research to aero industry. . . But on the other hand Pakistan industries are very resistant to change from their conventional practices. . . you will have to struggle at least for 3-5 years in order to bring some change. . . And these 3-5 years are not gonna be easy for guys like you. . . And after 5 years it could have gone both ways. . . Either you become sarkari noker or you can have a small group who is struggling to bring change. . . And Mostly what happen is people leave and go abroad. . .I am sorry its depressing but it is what it is.... There are very very few people in our setups who are welcoming to change and latest research work "

One of the authors in these publications is a serving PAF officer. He had his fun by getting send abroad himself for post-grad studies and still in the service.

I interviewed under him for an aerodynamics role at PAC, and the interview quickly changed to an interrogation. I cut it short myself and he curtly said that he never had seen people reject working at PAC, I simply said with the attitude he was showing, I saw no progression in the department.........and unfortunately that cultural mentality is still there.

Got hired the same day for a position abroad (in line with my preferred flight test field), and I am more than happy to have not picked PAC Kamra, at least as a civilian it is no place to be there. With the current air chief, I am hearing things are slightly progressing there.....

Note: Thanks for posting these publications, other than the Azm one, they are very well written and have good content.

 

[JamD]

One of the authors in these publications is a serving PAF officer. He had his fun by getting send abroad himself for post-grad studies and still in the service.

I interviewed under him for an aerodynamics role at PAC, and the interview quickly changed to an interrogation. I cut it short myself and he curtly said that he never had seen people reject working at PAC, I simply said with the attitude he was showing, I saw no progression in the department.........and unfortunately that cultural mentality is still there.

Got hired the same day for a position abroad (in line with what my preferred flight test field), and I am more than happy to have not picked PAC Kamra, at least as a civilian it is no place to be there. With the current air chief, I am hearing things are slightly progressing there.....

Note: Thanks for posting these publications, other than the Azm one, they are very well written and have good content.

Yes there are more than one serving PAF folks in there. I have sort of interviewed for a possible position at PAC too. I was told to come to Pakistan immediately and also told that everything I know is basically wrong and useless - somehow the conversation was steered towards making that point. This was the director of the program, who's US educated and supposed to be different. I wonder if you and I are talking about the same person

Someone I narrated this conversation to said to me that it's in our nature to put down people to show superiority. I guess I needed to be put down. Doesn't bode well for the environment he was asking me to join.

 

[S A L M A N.]

Yes there are more than one serving PAF folks in there. I have sort of interviewed for a possible position at PAC too. I was told to come to Pakistan immediately and also told that everything I know is basically wrong and useless - somehow the conversation was steered towards making that point. This was the director of the program, who's US educated and supposed to be different. I wonder if you and I are talking about the same person

Someone I narrated this conversation to said to me that it's in our nature to put down people to show superiority. I guess I needed to be put down. Doesn't bode well for the environment he was asking me to join.

Why is it that anything remotely related to Pakistan's tech industry landscape eventually turns into a major rant against the fauji mindset?
Have to give credit where it is due though: I have not seen an example of what you described in the PN. Not even in the senior (upto 1-star) ranks.