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Comparative analysis of radar tech of Pakistan and India

@Dillinger! =)

Informative post as always

You haven't seen anything yet, Gambit isn't here but when he's in the mood the amount of raw data he can bombard a guy with requires hours of un-packing in order to collate in a coherent manner. I swear, 10-15 detailed questions later one is still left knackered because there is just so much of information for a non-technical/professional to swallow. And a munshi like me obviously ends up woefully freaked.
 
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^^ Gambit is gambit

On Topic> LSTAR AESA Radar

L-Star%2Bradar.jpg
 
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You haven't seen anything yet, Gambit isn't here but when he's in the mood the amount of raw data he can bombard a guy with requires hours of un-packing in order to collate in a coherent manner. I swear, 10-15 detailed questions later one is still left knackered because there is just so much of information for a non-technical/professional to swallow. And a munshi like me obviously ends up woefully freaked.

It doesn't matter you Asura meat eater! my mission in life is to stop cattle slaughter and protect Gau-mata. Even if i have to kill people to do it !
 
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It doesn't matter you Asura meat eater! my mission in life is to stop cattle slaughter and protect Gau-mata. Even if i have to kill people to do it !

All I am saying is that as a Munshi all that I know I know because I am crazy, I still come up short thanks to having d@rned friends like @Hyperion (material engineering) and Oscar (communications). It is positively annoying. :angry:

On the topic of light banter, that's Buttsy's purview, avoid it here lest you want to get hammered by some visiting mod. Buttsy can get away by simply intimidating the powers that be, you will not be so lucky. So pack it off to Naswar.:tup:
 
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In layman terms, u can say that AWACS r airborne radars which r used for early detection of enemy airborne targets like Jets n Helicopters.

Nowdays fighter pilots avoid using their own jet radars bcoz it acts as a two edge sword which although detects enemy but at the same time reveals aircrafts own location as well.

Thats where AWACS come into play as AWACS have much better detection power(both in terms of range n no. of targets detection) in comparision to normal Jet radars. Plus AWACS have big jammers at the sametime they r also difficult to Jam by enemy radars.

The information collected by AWACS r then transmitted to frontline fighter providing them enemy location without using there own radar.
 
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I think acquisition of ISTARs from Raytheon will give a significant boost in IAF's ground traget detection capabilities too.

BTW any news on Swordfish 2 or induction of DRDO AWACS???:what:
 
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@Ravi Nair>

An airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system is an airborne radar system designed to detect aircraft, ships and vehicles at long ranges and perform control and command of the battle space in an air engagement by directing fighter and attack aircraft strikes. AEW&C units are also used to carry out surveillance, including over ground targets and frequently perform C2BM (command and control, battle management) functions similar to an Airport Traffic Controller given military command over other forces. Used at a high altitude, the radars on the aircraft allow the operators to distinguish between friendly and hostile aircraft hundreds of miles away.

AEW&C is also known by the older term "airborne early warning" (AEW) and for the name of a specific system, "airborne warning and control system" (AWACS).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AEW&C_aircraft_operators
 
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Indias one phalcon AWACS can cover whole of Pakistans airspace. Pakistans all of RADAR assets cannot even cover the entire indo-pak border..
 
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Indias one phalcon AWACS can cover whole of Pakistans airspace. Pakistans all of RADAR assets cannot even cover the entire indo-pak border..

Prove it, or lose your privilege of ever posting in this section again. Lets put out an ultimatim to stupid posts from any side. @Dillinger
[/MENTION]
 
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One area that is calling for some attention is Radars for AAD Regts. of the IA. But that program has been embarked upon already. The GroundSmarter and Reporter Radars are being license manufactured in India and have been integrated to both the ZSU-23 and L-70 ack-ack guns currently in use as will be connected to the 35mm AAD project.


No doubt the IACCS is a wonder. The IAF was exceedingly pleased with is performance in ex.pralay.

It does what a modern C4I2 is supposed to do. In fact falls somewhere in the middle of C4I2 and C5ISR. The acronyms can really boggle one's mind.

1) Generates real time ASP by integrating tracks from the linked ground based sensors.

2) Multi-radar track fusion including primary, secondary and associated radar tracks.

3) Acquires, stores, processes, integrates, correlates and displays the track data in real time.

4) Receives weapon status, airfield status and weather status from weapon and associated control centers.

5) Continuous identification, threat evaluation and advise to the command on engagement of hostile tracks.

6) Receives and processes flight plans from the concerned agencies/liaison units.

7) Calculates and depicts interception geometrics.

8) Suggests recovery solutions and provides assistance for recovery of friendly aircraft to designated Airbases.

9) Simulates environment comprising of all sensors to present realistic scenario for training

10) Off-line map preparation facility and loading of charts.

11) Flexible system architechture to facilitate addition/deletion of system components.

Now what's left is to integrate precision X-band sensors in future for a prospective TBMD and aerostat based sensors for tracking terrain following LRCM/CM.

The article obviously missed all of this and instead based its data on older sources, not to mention it missed Pakistan's own Command and Control architecture- which is quite advanced btw.
@Oscar Speaking of Pakistan's Command and Control architecture, I believe that it has been updated/upgraded even further with sparse data on said upgrades available, no?

I can rumour(lest saying confirm gets me into Butt Sahab's territory of which I am not worthy) that a similar program for PA's guns is already in place. However, the issue is that it does not coordinate with the AF's ADGE net and hence there is a high probability in my view for fratricide(As has been seen before in the wars). This is due to the fact that at this point the Army's best system is still the Anza MANPAD and hence as such is bound by the man's judgement on what he sees and not a IFF(of which I am dubious about whether these exist on any of these systems including the Oerlikons). I do not wish to indulge beyond what I know for sure and as such I have presented the example of, but in terms of sophistication as in Net Centricity along with redundancy the PAF's system is equal to the IACCS and perhaps lies in the same bracket. There are systems not as such mentioned but having taken a sneak peek at the screen of the doohicky.. There were fairly large circles(that denote weapon engagement radius) in areas which are unexplained by the current "public" domain of what is there and what is not. However, caution must be taken as being a simulation system as well(as part of a single package) these may be simulated for future purchase of SAM systems and hence do not confirm anything. There is one part where this system(at least to my less qualified knowledge) falls behind is its reliance on voice for guidance and interception. As in unlike the IACCS where a text packet can tell the pilot where to look for what without breaking radio silence.. here a system such as the JF-17 will receive a total picture of who is what and where.. but there will still be a "killer control" telling him to go after Track so and so. That will not be the case with the Army and its new comms.. everybody will be texting and sending pictures.. Expect observers telling Arty " Target hit!.. good shot :P"(or whatever jargon they use)
 
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Prove it, or lose your privilege of ever posting in this section again. Lets put out an ultimatim to stupid posts from any side. @Dillinger
[/MENTION]

From your own post:
I was about to write a reply to this particular piece in the morning before London beckoned. I would like to immediately declare that I am no Radar expert and hence will abstain from writing too much on the comparison of the two systems. I would state however that India has MUCH better coverage across the front in both low level and high level sensors as compared to us. Pakistan's sensor coverage is focused on key areas such as Bases and strategic centers and hence has gaps left open in the desert and a few other areas. To offset this there are fairly good C4I systems which really have been given a lot of attention in terms of both integration and ease of use. An example is this which is optimized for threat tracking from multiple sensors that range from the YLC radar down to the Mark 1 eyeball of the MoU; it can cue targeting data to weapon operators on the click of a button and coordinates with ALL assets.
Network Centric System
 
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I can rumour(lest saying confirm gets me into Butt Sahab's territory of which I am not worthy) that a similar program for PA's guns is already in place. However, the issue is that it does not coordinate with the AF's ADGE net and hence there is a high probability in my view for fratricide(As has been seen before in the wars). This is due to the fact that at this point the Army's best system is still the Anza MANPAD and hence as such is bound by the man's judgement on what he sees and not a IFF(of which I am dubious about whether these exist on any of these systems including the Oerlikons). I do not wish to indulge beyond what I know for sure and as such I have presented the example of, but in terms of sophistication as in Net Centricity along with redundancy the PAF's system is equal to the IACCS and perhaps lies in the same bracket. There are systems not as such mentioned but having taken a sneak peek at the screen of the doohicky.. There were fairly large circles(that denote weapon engagement radius) in areas which are unexplained by the current "public" domain of what is there and what is not. However, caution must be taken as being a simulation system as well(as part of a single package) these may be simulated for future purchase of SAM systems and hence do not confirm anything. There is one part where this system(at least to my less qualified knowledge) falls behind is its reliance on voice for guidance and interception. As in unlike the IACCS where a text packet can tell the pilot where to look for what without breaking radio silence.. here a system such as the JF-17 will receive a total picture of who is what and where.. but there will still be a "killer control" telling him to go after Track so and so. That will not be the case with the Army and its new comms.. everybody will be texting and sending pictures.. Expect observers telling Arty " Target hit!.. good shot :P"(or whatever jargon they use)

Re: the underlined part; 'blue on blue' has been a recurrent occurrence in previous conflicts on both sides in the past. That was largely because the comms. between ADGES and AADs (notably) gun systems were entirely through voice comms. among other things. There have been a number of instances where IAF's BDZ ack-ack artillery avoided opening up simply to avoid "frat-kills" which had occurred earlier. The Army's ack-ack guns operated in relative autonomy with more serious consequences.

Present day MANPADS and other SHORADS have some form of IFF capability. How reliable they are; I have not much idea about. Actually, MANPADS are pretty double-edged (IMO) if used in an environment where close dog-fighting (WVR) air combat is taking place. BVR improves the ability to use MANPADs. But in any case MANPADs are WLR (Weapons of Last Resort) to start with.

What is noticeable now; is that the IA has considerably beefed up its Comms. (esp microwave) which makes me think that integration into IACCCS is a distinct possibility. In that case the "Killer Control" or FD Offr. or AD Control will have a lesser role role to play; which is not a bad thing.
 
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You haven't seen anything yet, Gambit isn't here but when he's in the mood the amount of raw data he can bombard a guy with requires hours of un-packing in order to collate in a coherent manner. I swear, 10-15 detailed questions later one is still left knackered because there is just so much of information for a non-technical/professional to swallow. And a munshi like me obviously ends up woefully freaked.
The most help I can do is to provide information at the foundational level of these things, either to clear up misconceptions or to debunk fantastic claims, particularly from the Chinese quarter here.

Reading the article, I hesitate to be generous and call it an 'analysis'. All the author seemed to have done is cite hardware capabilities and some specs, not much in terms of the tactical utility of each piece. Perhaps that is his goal, but if so, then do not call it an 'analysis'. Anyone could do what he did and come to a conclusion, perhaps not the same as his or perhaps the same, but that ease should be enough to discourage the label of 'analysis'. At the very least, he should have give some examples of the tactical usage of each piece and how one side can use one tactical advantage to nullify or even defeat the other side's.

Remember: In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

An advantage is a rule and one should always strive to simultaneously force one's opponent to fight under one's advantages while avoiding his. Probably he would have come to the same conclusion, that of no clear advantage, but it would have been caveat-ed as no clear tactical advantage due to no clear technical advantage.

That said, even though I hesitate to make any tactical analyses since I do not live over there, do not know the financials of both countries, and do not know the array of each military, I am curious about one tactical aspect...

GIRAFFE radars also give automatic hovering helicopter detection, which is an artillery and mortar locating function that allow the radars to detect incoming rounds and give 20 seconds or more of warning before impact. A skilled crew can deploy these radars in around 10 minutes and recover it in around 6 minutes.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-radar-tech-pakistan-india.html#ixzz2iQuU7dxN
As highlighted, why is that significant for Pakistan?

For the interested lay readers, there is something called the RADAM algorithm (radar detection of agitated metals)...

Analysis of radar detection of agitated metals (RADAM)
It has been observed that the radar returns from moving multielement metal targets often exhibit an unexpected modulation that has both random (or noise-like) and semicoherent components. One possible mechanism for producing this effect is the modification of the current distribution on the target that results when electrical contacts between target elements are altered intermittently by the forces associated with target motion. Such intermittent-contact modulation must be considered in the design of a radar for detecting or identifying a target exhibiting this effect. Depending on the application, the observer may wish to enhance or suppress the observation of the effect, or it may be important that the effect itself be enhanced or suppressed in the object being observed. To accomplish any of these, the effect must be well understood, and we have therefore undertaken a program of research to study the radar detection of agitated metals (RADAM). This report summarizes our progress during the second year of the program. The overall objectives of our RADAM research program are to (1) identify and isolate the physical processes and mechanisms that contribute to a RADAM signature, (2) identify and explain important recognizable features of the signature, and (3) determine means for separating the significant identifying components of the signature from nonmeaningful components.
Simply put...The RADAM algorithm searches for opposite but complementary signals that exhibits predictable behaviors inside a virtual boundary. A helo's rotor is an example.

If you are looking at a two-blade rotor while it is in motion (virtual boundary) you will have one blade moving away from you and one blade moving towards you at 180 deg difference/opposite. The dominant component inside the total return will be the Doppler component. If you are looking at a three-blade rotor, you will have blades Doppler components of equal degrees of separation while in motion. A four-blade rotor assembly will have 90 degrees of separation.

Same concept when looking at a wheel. If there are upper spokes, there must be lower spokes and all have equal degrees of Doppler separation.

If you have enough of these signatures, you can compile a library of known rotor assemblies of helos in the world, or truck wheels, or tank tracks, or even jet engines. Which leads back to the question of why did Pakistan bought the GIRAFFE system?

When you go shopping for a radar system, air defense or air traffic control, you enter the market with a highest priority technical capability in mind. For example...If the system is intended for short range air traffic control with short range meaning your airliners are close enough that they are readied for line up instructions for landing, you want a system with higher freq, with shorter pulse repetition, and complex pulse characteristics to help you discriminate various sizes of incoming aircrafts. All of these calculations will be done for you transparently.

But just because you entered the market with a highest technical priority, that does not mean you ignore other capabilities any system can do besides the one capability you want. Flight path projections based upon history is nice to have. So does wind shear alert if such a condition arises unexpectedly. If the system is 'smart' enough, it can even recommend which target should land first based upon certain factors that you decided earlier. You would ask the seller what else can his product do.

Did Pakistan asked the Swede seller specifically about helo detection?

What make helo detection difficult is not the RADAM algorithm. We had to write one in training, even with pseudo-code. But the difficulty here is that helo is usually a low altitude aircraft that often blends in with the background, visually and electromagnetically, making data extraction from the RADAM algorithm problematic. Everything is about the sophistication of data gathering and data extraction methods.

So how capable is this for the GIRAFFE system? Did Pakistan knew about it before asking for more details and purchased it? Or did the Swede seller mentioned it, showed how capable it was, and Pakistan bought it? Either way, it begs the question of what does Pakistan guessed, or heavens forbid know, of the Indian Army's tactical usage of its helo fleet to weigh in on purchasing the system.

When you have to rely on purchasing your defense, intelligence about potential adversaries is even more important than when you are capable of creating your own to tailor to your tactical needs. You are essentially at the mercy of whoever selling a product that allegedly have the capabilities you need/want. You enter the market armed with that intelligence and assess the products offered to you.

Pakistan did not purchased the GIRAFFE with that feature just because it is a nice thing to have but 'I really do not need it.' Not even Saddam Hussein was that stupid and he had a professional to shop for the Iraqi military.
 
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