Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Lahore shooting: Some questions
By Ejaz Haider
Published: January 31, 2011

The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution's Foreign Policy Studies Programme


Two boys shot dead by Raymond Davis, an American national, in the Mozang area of Lahore; one biker crushed to death by a speeding US consulate vehicle that arrives on the scene presumably to rescue Davis, who tries to escape but is captured. The consulate vehicle escapes after overrunning the unfortunate biker.
The incident has left a trail of three bodies and several questions.
Who is Davis — accredited diplomat or a civilian contracted by the US consulate for ‘technical advice’, a term that can cover a broad range of activities? Why was he carrying a pistol, a Glock 17 I am told, which is a 9mm semi-automatic weapon that packs the punch with 17 rounds in a standard magazine. It is used by pros and Davis does seem like one.
Why did Davis try to run away from the scene after displaying the calm ability to shoot a pistol with a steady hand, get out of the car, make a video of the bodies, and talk to someone on the wireless?
From what’s known so far, it does not appear that the killed boys intended to shoot Davis. They were carrying local-made pistols (terrible choice); one didn’t have bullets in it, while the other had five rounds of local ammo, another bad amateur choice. There is no indication that they tried to fire at Davis. It is interesting to note where Davis fired from, in what direction and where the boys took the bullets.
Davis fired from inside his car, slightly above the steering wheel and towards the right. That would mean the boys were parked ahead of his car, probably close to the right edge of the bonnet. Not exactly the right place if you want to shoot down a driver. Most of the bullets, it appears from the autopsy, entered their bodies from the back — that would mean they were facing away from the shooter, or were trying to escape at the time they were shot down. If this is correct then, at least at the moment Davis shot them, they were not a threat to his life. Itchy fingers perhaps?
One source told me the ammo he used was hollow-point; another says it was ballpoint. With hollow-point the boys stood no chance at all. The round enters the body and flattens, causing terrible tissue damage.
Glock pistols have a two-stage trigger safety mechanism because there is no external safety catch. The weapon will fire when the trigger is depressed normally beyond the first stage afforded by the internal trigger safety mechanism. Why did he fire 7 shots if the idea was to incapacitate? Since Davis has claimed self-defence he will have to prove that his life was in grave danger when he shot the boys.
People are angry. There is a sense, not entirely wrong, that Americans act haughty, even though the blame for this must go to Pakistani governments. If the governments fail to observe the protocols, too eager to roll out the red carpet even for lower ranking American officials, one can’t blame the Americans for taking Pakistan for granted.
Consider the attitude of the public affairs officers at the US embassy and the consulate in Lahore. They have refused to ID Davis. Instead of helping in investigating the killing of three Pakistanis, the US embassy has now demanded that this guy be immediately released. And pray, how and why, unless all these questions are answered? The government should clarify when, how, why, and if at all, a foreign national can carry a weapon? What exactly is the status of this man, his ID and the nature of his work here? What is the protocol for the movement of American nationals, whether in official or personal capacity? Are the Americans using SOPs for their protection that may violate local laws? If so, why?
The government should set up a website, giving information on all legal and other questions thrown up by this violent incident. It must also tell the people why the US embassy has made such a demand. The US government cannot spring the guy until all legal issues are settled. Neither can the federal and Punjab governments afford to let him walk away just like that.
Published in The Express Tribune, January 31st, 2011.

 

[American Eagle]

No anti-American writers opinions here have the weight of Internation Law and Treaties which define and provide immunity to a diplomat. A hard fact, so please don't waste your time trying to "try" a factually unknown robbery upon an innocent American in the Pakistani media here.

Some writers on this site over this weekend have made comments about whether the American was fired on from outside his car by the two robbers vs. whether the American fired at the gun pointing robbers from inside his car windshield.

In either case you other writers on PDF who wishfully want to blame the American diplomat who faced two armed robbers who threatened his life are flatly wrong and don’t know the gun and bullet facts whatsoever.

In terms of physical facts of what happens to a bullet whether fired from outside the windshield at a distance into the car or from inside the windshield fired at a target some distance from the car take note. The bullet is deflected by the angle of the windshield and the bullet is partially disintegrated trying to pass through the laminated glass.

Made up comments about hollow point bullets have no basis in fact here whatsoever. Such allegations are wild eyed statements made up by writers on this site this weekend.

However, for the public’s awareness a hollow point bullet fired either from outside the car windshield into the car or from inside the car out through the laminated windshield has the same outcome. It disintegrates when hitting and trying to penetrate the laminated windshield glass.

To restate, use of a hollow point bullet is futile fired either from inside and out through a laminated windshield or if fired at a distance from outside and in through a laminated windshield.

The angle of deflection no matter whether the bullet is fired outside into or inside out of a car laminated windshield “ruins” aim. Bullets disintegrate and the aim is unpredictable due to the angle of a windshield.

EXAMPLE SCENARIO: A robber is trapped in traffic and is forced to fire from outside a vehicle into the passenger compartment through the laminated windshield glass.

A single round is fired, but there are three holes in the target laminated windshield.

Why?

Because laminated glass is particularly hard on bullets. It can sometimes strip parts of the bullet jacket off of the lead core, reducing the bullet's effectiveness on the anatomy of a human being. In some instances when the bullet is fired at a distance into or out of the windshield the laminated glass can effectively dissipate the bullet so that it effectively disintegrates in going through the laminated windshield glass.

In summary when shooting out or in through the laminated windshield into the passenger compartment of a vehicle, you need to keep three things in mind:

1. Laminated glass and the angle of the windshield will cause your round to deflect away from your point of aim. How much depends on the angle of the windshield and the weight of the bullet you are using.

2. When fired through laminated glass, bullets tend to partially fragment, reducing the effectiveness of the bullet and causing there to be secondary projectiles (bullet jackets, glass, etc) that can impact other parts of the vehicle such as shooting through and knocking out the rear window of the vehicle.

3. When firing a bullet into a passenger compartment, there is no guarantee that it will hit the target you intend to hit. The residual bullet fragment may well pass wide of the intended target and go out through the rear window of the car.

A particular fact comes from this discourse. No hollow point bullets were used. Period. Pure b.s. folks have made up to smear the put upon American diplomat victum of a two armed robber Pakisani team who clearly threatened his life and limb with their weapons.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Eagle i feel sorry for u making pathetic excuses and diverting the topic.
These bastards............ the shooter and those who ran over the bike rider should be hanged and the bodies should be handed over to u.

 

[Pak_Sher]

No anti-American writers opinions here have the weight of Internation Law and Treaties which define and provide immunity to a diplomat. A hard fact, so please don't waste your time trying to "try" a factually unknown robbery upon an innocent American in the Pakistani media here.

Some writers on this site over this weekend have made comments about whether the American was fired on from outside his car by the two robbers vs. whether the American fired at the gun pointing robbers from inside his car windshield.

In either case you other writers on PDF who wishfully want to blame the American diplomat who faced two armed robbers who threatened his life are flatly wrong and don’t know the gun and bullet facts whatsoever.

In terms of physical facts of what happens to a bullet whether fired from outside the windshield at a distance into the car or from inside the windshield fired at a target some distance from the car take note. The bullet is deflected by the angle of the windshield and the bullet is partially disintegrated trying to pass through the laminated glass.

Made up comments about hollow point bullets have no basis in fact here whatsoever. Such allegations are wild eyed statements made up by writers on this site this weekend.

However, for the public’s awareness a hollow point bullet fired either from outside the car windshield into the car or from inside the car out through the laminated windshield has the same outcome. It disintegrates when hitting and trying to penetrate the laminated windshield glass.

To restate, use of a hollow point bullet is futile fired either from inside and out through a laminated windshield or if fired at a distance from outside and in through a laminated windshield.

The angle of deflection no matter whether the bullet is fired outside into or inside out of a car laminated windshield “ruins” aim. Bullets disintegrate and the aim is unpredictable due to the angle of a windshield.

EXAMPLE SCENARIO: A robber is trapped in traffic and is forced to fire from outside a vehicle into the passenger compartment through the laminated windshield glass.

A single round is fired, but there are three holes in the target laminated windshield.

Why?

Because laminated glass is particularly hard on bullets. It can sometimes strip parts of the bullet jacket off of the lead core, reducing the bullet's effectiveness on the anatomy of a human being. In some instances when the bullet is fired at a distance into or out of the windshield the laminated glass can effectively dissipate the bullet so that it effectively disintegrates in going through the laminated windshield glass.

In summary when shooting out or in through the laminated windshield into the passenger compartment of a vehicle, you need to keep three things in mind:

1. Laminated glass and the angle of the windshield will cause your round to deflect away from your point of aim. How much depends on the angle of the windshield and the weight of the bullet you are using.

2. When fired through laminated glass, bullets tend to partially fragment, reducing the effectiveness of the bullet and causing there to be secondary projectiles (bullet jackets, glass, etc) that can impact other parts of the vehicle such as shooting through and knocking out the rear window of the vehicle.

3. When firing a bullet into a passenger compartment, there is no guarantee that it will hit the target you intend to hit. The residual bullet fragment may well pass wide of the intended target and go out through the rear window of the car.

A particular fact comes from this discourse. No hollow point bullets were used. Period. Pure b.s. folks have made up to smear the put upon American diplomat victum of a two armed robber Pakisani team who clearly threatened his life and limb with their weapons.

OK, lets agree for a second that what ever you stated here is true. The robbers pointed guns and he shot them dead.

(01) According to the diplomatic protocol why the accused Davis did not obtain permission before visiting the area where he got in this trouble?

(02) And why he had fake license plates?

(03) And why he withdrew money Pakistani currency in 6 figures before he reached the spot?

(04) Why he was carrying cameras and an illegal firearm?

Since you are acting like his attorney you better have solid answers.

One thing is clear is that Americans when it come to them start pointing out all the rule regulations that they never follow themselves.

Like the American message of democracy only in the US and support of kings, dictators and non-democratic practices all over the globe.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

OK, lets agree for a second that what ever you stated here is true. The robbers pointed guns and he shot them dead.

(01) According to the diplomatic protocol why the accused Davis did not obtain permission before visiting the area where he got in this trouble?

(02) And why he had fake license plates?

(03) And why he withdrew money Pakistani currency in 6 figures before he reached the spot?

(04) Why he was carrying cameras and an illegal firearm?

Since you are acting like his attorney you better have solid answers.

One thing is clear is that Americans when it come to them start pointing out all the rule regulations that they never follow themselves.

Like the American message of democracy only in the US and support of kings, dictators and non-democratic practices all over the globe.

Forgot abt his escape attempt after killing them and taking their pics nd talkin to someone on his wireless.........nd the us embassy vehicle tht came to his rescue nd killed another innocent guy and escaped?


Also his visa was shown on tv....... he got no f..king immunity.

 

[Thomas]

perfect example of lynch mob mentality.

Thousands in Pakistan rally against American - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com

"The protest leaders paraded two men who they said were brothers of the shooting victims. The men joined protesters in shouting "any friend of America is a traitor." Others held signs that said "Punish the American Killer" and "Hang this American in Public."

 

[American Eagle]

Pak Sher's attempt at a degree of civility is appreciated.

The presumptions or assumptions you have listed do not factually exist whatsoever, at all. They are further evidence of made up statements meant to inflame ignorant public opinion against an American diplomat who faced two armed robbers in Lahore, the day after a terrorist suicide bomber killed 35 and wounded over 180 Paksitani innocent men, women, and children.

The points I raised were in response to previous false allegations in the preceeding article before I wrote these analogies, not something I pulled out of the air to blather on about.

It may be difficult in a time of war to love your allies, but to love your enemies makes no sense whatsoever. Robber are your enemy, as well as ours as in this case.

We are perhaps hours away from a comprehensive Paksitani Assembly Interior Affairs Committee meeting involving the focused issue of diplomatic immunity. All this speculation, and especially made up stuff, will end thereafter.

Those who continue to want to harbor ill will or hatred toward this American diplomat or the war on terrorism in general need to get focused on the fact that a determined heretical religious effort will not simply go away because folks wish it would do so.

I believe, my opinion, that it has been a huge mistake for many years to have allowed the Northern areas, FATA, SWAT, NWFP, as well as North and South Balochistan go unattended to in a share and share alike sense of benefit of jobs, industrial and business development, more and better free....not religious....education...and a one size fits all non-ethnic bias policy to start all peoples in Pakistan working toward a common national identity with a recreational, cultural hurrah for everyone's then differing tribal and other backgrounds...as only a fun cultural factor...since equality in fact is sorely need among all Pakistanis now and in the indefinite future.

Again, thank you for your degree of civility intended here.

 

[Pak_Sher]

I personally wish at this very moment that they let the American Go. Though it will free the American but definately help bring down the government quickly in days. There are enough people pissed off in Pakistan already and this could be a start of downfall of Zardari. Though the tide from Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen may have arrived a little later, but definately freeing Davis will help crash the government in the coming days.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Im sorry sir u can kill more pakistanis....... our blood is cheap.............. u happy now?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

perfect example of lynch mob mentality.

Thousands in Pakistan rally against American - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com

"The protest leaders paraded two men who they said were brothers of the shooting victims. The men joined protesters in shouting "any friend of America is a traitor." Others held signs that said "Punish the American Killer" and "Hang this American in Public."

Yeah they should have thanked those bastards who killed 3 guy? right.

 

[American Eagle]

I generally know educated Pakistanis in first hand experience to be pretty good at advanced math.

This said lets address the huge number of murdered and maimed/wounded Pakistanis have been at the hands of fellow Pakistanis who are heretical religious thugs, the radical form of the Taliban and Al Qaida. This is where the real numbers are of innocent Muslims Paksitanis put upon, murdered and maimed, by religious heretics to peaceful Islam who claim to be "good Paksitanis."

Just to keep the big picture facts straight.

Question is why do Pakistanis as measured on this site, PDF, show so little condoences interest in the Lahore day before the American incident suicide bomber and his allies who put togther the murder of 35 innocent Pakistani men, women, and children, with 180 more Pakitanis wounded severely.

Heretics to Islam are in abundance but public outcry against them is just not visible nor audible to the free world at large. Wonder why? As a Christian in our modern day world I have long accepted the wish and desire of my Muslim Pakistani friends both still in Pakistan and here where I live in the USA to maintain the image and desire of Islam as defined as meaning Peace.

Peace be with those of you who want peaces and do not try to defame innocent American Mr. Davis who was attcked by armed robbers in a failed hold up attempt...which robbers had shortly before attacking Davis robbed a native Paksitani man nearby thre in Lahore the same day.

 

[RescueRanger]

Tell me what you are doing every single day to help families of those killed in automobile accidents all over Pakistan?

If we get the call, we attend, triage, stabilize on scene, if the condition is critical they are transported to the nearest hospital. And we do that on a DAILY basis.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I generally know educated Pakistanis in first hand experience to be pretty good at advanced math.

This said lets address the huge number of murdered and maimed/wounded Pakistanis have been at the hands of fellow Pakistanis who are heretical religious thugs, the radical form of the Taliban and Al Qaida. This is where the real numbers are of innocent Muslims Paksitanis put upon, murdered and maimed, by religious heretics to peaceful Islam who claim to be "good Paksitanis."

Just to keep the big picture facts straight.

Question is why do Pakistanis as measured on this site, PDF, show so little condoences interest in the Lahore day before the American incident suicide bomber and his allies who put togther the murder of 35 innocent Pakistani men, women, and children, with 180 more Pakitanis wounded severely.

Heretics of Islam are in abundance but public outcry against them is just not visible nor audible to the free world at large. Wonder why?

Does this justify the killings of pakistanis by us officials in our own country?

Who created taliban to fight USSR?We all know tht!!

So dont rant if u dont have anything constructive to say instead of posting crap.

 

[GEMINI]

Shall be interesting to see if any pakistani comits a similar crime in US. Will these advocates carry out such lame point raising then? or they will cloe their eyes and start pointing muslim terrorist. Actually it was a classical example of the world's most civilised terror state in action, with a change that this time, caught by the people red handed.

Anyways, i believe that some how the criminal shall have a way out. Its not a matter of only one crime but th matter of "Iqtidar e Ala" in Pakistan.
An eye opener.

 

[RescueRanger]

I generally know educated Pakistanis in first hand experience to be pretty good at advanced math.

This said lets address the huge number of murdered and maimed/wounded Pakistanis have been at the hands of fellow Pakistanis who are heretical religious thugs, the radical form of the Taliban and Al Qaida. This is where the real numbers are of innocent Muslims Paksitanis put upon, murdered and maimed, by religious heretics to peaceful Islam who claim to be "good Paksitanis."

Just to keep the big picture facts straight.

Question is why do Pakistanis as measured on this site, PDF, show so little condoences interest in the Lahore day before the American incident suicide bomber and his allies who put togther the murder of 35 innocent Pakistani men, women, and children, with 180 more Pakitanis wounded severely.

Heretics of Islam are in abundance but public outcry against them is just not visible nor audible to the free world at large. Wonder why?

/end rant...

/run script "constructive" discussion

[ERROR]

All you have been doing since page 6 is ranting... Give it a rest will you.