Rafale deal: India, France clinch offset deal; France agrees to invest 50% worth in related sectors

[Taygibay]

From what i can make out from your and @Taygibay posts is that there certainly are a lot of undercurrents and hard bargaining going on. We should get a clearer and hopefully positive picture by end of this fiscal year surely.

That would be a wise & secure position to adopt, anant_s.
Instead of sticking to conclusions on details such as precise numbers, the fact that positive informations
like extra ACs are now heard if not yet given on both sides shows that the deal, unencumbered by MMRCA
more restrictive guidelines, is now inventing solutions to ensure completion. I.E. it will succeed!

Considering time elapsed since 2001, a couple months for an inked contract to reveal detailed numbers ain't much!

Good day to you, Tay.

 

[anant_s]

LCA as a replacement for Rafale is a Strawman.

LCA is a replacement for MiG 21 and a point defence fighter, i believe.
MMRCA was conceived to take care of retirement of MiG 21s.
The time it took, has now created a situation where you need to look for replacements of MiG 27 (next 4-5 years) and possibly Jaguars (after 2025).
LCA Mk 2 is still some years away and so is FGFA. Won't comment on AMCA (could come quicker than LCA).
As of now apart from Su 30 MKI, the only fighter being made in India is LCA Mk 1 and the quickest option to get a Gen 4.5 fighter is Rafale.
As for Gen 5 fighter, let us atleast wait and see when and how PAK FA gets inducted in Russian air force (even conservatively speaking it is a good 2-3 years away) and i don't see FGFA before 2020.
Now if we do maths and account for all attrition and retirements, the only option is MMRCA winner on technical terms.
Rest is a question of how and in what manner government buys them remains to be seen. As @Taygibay has remarked, time will tell all of us and i'll be happy to be proven wrong if LCA Mk 2 comes up to match capabilities of a true Gen 4.5 fighter, but till that time Rafle remains our best (& should i say the only) bet.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

LCA is a replacement for MiG 21 and a point defence fighter, i believe.
MMRCA was conceived to take care of retirement of MiG 21s.
The time it took, has now created a situation where you need to look for replacements of MiG 27 (next 4-5 years) and possibly Jaguars (after 2025).
LCA Mk 2 is still some years away and so is FGFA. Won't comment on AMCA (could come quicker than LCA).
As of now apart from Su 30 MKI, the only fighter being made in India is LCA Mk 1 and the quickest option to get a Gen 4.5 fighter is Rafale.
As for Gen 5 fighter, let us atleast wait and see when and how PAK FA gets inducted in Russian air force (even conservatively speaking it is a good 2-3 years away) and i don't see FGFA before 2020.
Now if we do maths and account for all attrition and retirements, the only option is MMRCA winner on technical terms.
Rest is a question of how and in what manner government buys them remains to be seen. As @Taygibay has remarked, time will tell all of us and i'll be happy to be proven wrong if LCA Mk 2 comes up to match capabilities of a true Gen 4.5 fighter, but till that time Rafle remains our best (& should i say the only) bet.

Its foolish to do simple maths to find out solutions to complex situations.

The kind of aircraft in the battle field will depend on the technological advancement of the time, the strength and diversity of the enemy, the most cost effective solution, logistic support and economic feasibility.

Since ALL these factors are dynamic, the equation is also dynamic and so is the solution.

I leave such simple 1 to 1 replacement "strategies" to arm chair experts who wants to waste their time speculating possibilities to suite their fantasy and pre conceived notions.

I prefer to go by facts on the ground, what it says and what it means.

 

[Taygibay]

So a poster in a pakistani forum is more reliable than a journalist ?

I treat your post with the same respect as the other. No one is greater or lesser.

Hum! Tough one, man! Let me see …

No offense but "more reliable than a journalist" means nothing IMHoO!
Anyone staying silent is more reliable than a journalist, especially Indian journalists!
I'm not dissing India or its people in saying that; the problem is global if worst in your place.

But yes, some posters are much better than journalists. Not only are there professionals voicing
opinions that trump all journos in knowledge but there is such a thing as track record to boot.
However, I'm not going to give mine up for exam simply because I am not interested in talking
about me but about military affairs in this case the Rafale for India deal.

You are in no way forced to believe me without proof and equal respect from you is what I expected
from sensible gentleman so we're fine.

All of which said … you follow on with this :

For the moment it seems like the gravy train has taken a detour to Russia.

and give a general media source.
Had you known my track record, you'd have guessed this reaction from me :

That's your second inference from adding an external bit to the on-going reasoning.
I don't do inferences much, it's way too difficult for me. Instead I wait for facts to reveal paths.
As I won't compete on possibles, I'll just pull out from this conversation as I often do in such cases.

No harm's done though nor hard feelings, talk to you later elsewhere and/or on something else, Tay.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Hum! Tough one, man! Let me see …

No offense but "more reliable than a journalist" means nothing IMHoO!
Anyone staying silent is more reliable than a journalist, especially Indian journalists!
I'm not dissing India or its people in saying that; the problem is global if worst in your place.

But yes, some posters are much better than journalists. Not only are there professionals voicing
opinions that trump all journos in knowledge but there is such a thing as track record to boot.
However, I'm not going to give mine up for exam simply because I am not interested in talking
about me but about military affairs in this case the Rafale for India deal.

You are in no way forced to believe me without proof and equal respect from you is what I expected
from sensible gentleman so we're fine.

A known source is actually much better source than an anonymous source in an enemy forum. Surely you can see that.

I have gone out of the way to grant the credibility which logically you would not or should not be given.

All of which said … you follow on with this :

and give a general media source.
Had you known my track record, you'd have guessed this reaction from me :

That's your second inference from adding an external bit to the on-going reasoning.
I don't do inferences much, it's way too difficult for me. Instead I wait for facts to reveal paths.
As I won't compete on possibles, I'll just pull out from this conversation as I often do in such cases.

No harm's done though nor hard feelings, talk to you later elsewhere and/or on something else, Tay.

Tay it is.

 

[Taygibay]

P.S.

an enemy forum.

???

I've posted in forums from all nations since 1997 and am no one's enemy unless forced to.

Tay.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

P.S.
???
I've posted in forums from all nations since 1997 and am no one's enemy unless forced to.
Tay.

LOL..... I meant pakistani forum. (the enemy)

 

[Hulk]

Neither LCA nor AMCA are or projected to be EMALS capable, nor could we consult anyone in making them so as only USA and France has technology for Catapult launch. It would be prudent of us to buy F-35C for IAC2 and avail consultancy services of Boeing/LM for follow on carriers.

Buying whole package of EMALS, F-35C, and E-2Ds make much more sense than buying Rafale-M for carrier. LCA would simply would not be good enough, and AMCA-M would not materialize before 2030-35.

F-35C would also serve as an insurance policy in case Airforce FGFA turn out to be duds.Also I personally have equal trust in Russians and Americans.

I guess IAC2 will have Amercian EMALS and maybe F18 Advance Super Hornet is for that and not Land.

 

[halloweene]

I guess IAC2 will have Amercian EMALS and maybe F18 Advance Super Hornet is for that and not Land.

I take the bet. Btw usually Tay is fairly well informed...

 

[Hulk]

I take the bet. Btw usually Tay is fairly well informed...

I am just guessing based on statements made in media. I have no detail knowledge though. Can you please elaborate for me. I do not know Tay.

 

[mad_max]

Looking at current state of IAF its in dire need of few AEW&C , EW aircrafts and a genuine multi role fighter to replace its fleet of Mig27 , Rafale being ultra costly one will dry up all your resources , sane choice would be to take up offer of F16In or F18 and use remaining funds on other areas.

 

[Taygibay]

I am just guessing based on statements made in media. / I have no detail knowledge though. Can you please elaborate for me. / I do not know Tay.

OK, as you saw from the slashes mate, there are different points in that answer IMHoO.
The middle part is yours and there's nothing wrong with it but the bold ends, I can help with.

"I am just guessing based on statements made in media."
Don't! Just don't! From what I've read from you so far, you seem like a balanced fellow so please,
trust your wits first and foremost. Media statements are infinitely varied in substance.

"I do not know Tay."
You could … sort of! Just check my presence on Pakistan Defence Forums ( Defence.pk? ) in the 5 years
minus 2 days since I joined. Contrarily to some, I stand by every word I've written here.
Then if need still be, check my overall Internet presence by way of searches. Taygibay was adopted
9 years back and is my only handle save on games and real identity since.
Yes, I was on other mili fora but always under that nickname. I play poker on a top world site by that name, etc.
So the Tay exchanging in passing with the excellent Stephen Trimble on his Aviation Week milavia feed
and the Taygibay that stopped a given IRL decent journo / online Internet troll in 2009 by way of "guessing"
what professional press apparently could not : giving the right dates of the ATLC from which my avatar comes
… are one and the same. I am me!
I was never banned definitively anywhere, management member thrice and left whenever problems arose.
I recently closed a blog called Definitive Lapse of Reason to soon come back in a new form and please check all
3 years of it to see that my overall stance is that of a human being first and foremost less forced to think and thus
say otherwise.

But those are mere digital facts! Here's my pledge to you, Hulk that we may be of use to each other :
IMHoO. In My Honest Opinion.
I type that and said so before instead of the usual IMHO, H standing for humble because I'm …
you guessed it : more Honest than Humble.
Bad & sad thing for the lack of humility but : Oh! What gain in quality of information transfer, right?

I'm here to do what Internet was meant for : Gather Knowledge About Being Human.

Please treat what I say as you deem fit, That is your entire right as an individual.

Peace out, Tay.

 

[Hulk]

OK, as you saw from the slashes mate, there are different points in that answer IMHoO.
The middle part is yours and there's nothing wrong with it but the bold ends, I can help with.

"I am just guessing based on statements made in media."
Don't! Just don't! From what I've read from you so far, you seem like a balanced fellow so please,
trust your wits first and foremost. Media statements are infinitely varied in substance.

"I do not know Tay."
You could … sort of! Just check my presence on Pakistan Defence Forums ( Defence.pk? ) in the 5 years
minus 2 days since I joined. Contrarily to some, I stand by every word I've written here.
Then if need still be, check my overall Internet presence by way of searches. Taygibay was adopted
9 years back and is my only handle save on games and real identity since.
Yes, I was on other mili fora but always under that nickname. I play poker on a top world site by that name, etc.
So the Tay exchanging in passing with the excellent Stephen Trimble on his Aviation Week milavia feed
and the Taygibay that stopped a given IRL decent journo / online Internet troll in 2009 by way of "guessing"
what professional press apparently could not : giving the right dates of the ATLC from which my avatar comes
… are one and the same. I am me!
I was never banned definitively anywhere, management member thrice and left whenever problems arose.
I recently closed a blog called Definitive Lapse of Reason to soon come back in a new form and please check all
3 years of it to see that my overall stance is that of a human being first and foremost less forced to think and thus
say otherwise.

But those are mere digital facts! Here's my pledge to you, Hulk that we may be of use to each other :
IMHoO. In My Honest Opinion.
I type that and said so before instead of the usual IMHO, H standing for humble because I'm …
you guessed it : more Honest than Humble.
Bad & sad thing for the lack of humility but : Oh! What gain in quality of information transfer, right?

I'm here to do what Internet was meant for : Gather Knowledge About Being Human.

Please treat what I say as you deem fit, That is your entire right as an individual.

Peace out, Tay.

Good introduction mate. I am not extra ordinary guy as some of you maybe. However, I like few things about myself.
Something I do not know, I do not argue. If I have a view point I qualify it as I might be wrong. I do not debate on things I do not understand and rarely and very rarely I go off topic. I got a few bans here but mostly on minor issues.

Now whats your viewpoint on the subject?

 

[Taygibay]

Now whats your viewpoint on the subject?

Quite simply, I'd say that, as of now, there is more than a 50-50% chance spread that the deal will happen.
It's gotten too far to miss, too much was invested so that both sides have too much to lose IMHoO.
The clues from various sources point in that direction. I wouldn't have said that even 3 months back.

Thanks for your reply and have a great day, Tay.

P.S. "Extraordinary" lives are not solely due to those who live them.
Past being open to play hard, you need circumstances too. For
instance, a great warrior born in a land at peace for his lifetime
will never accomplish the exploits he ( she ) was able to.

What's more, you're not dead!
You may turn extraordinary tomorrow, who knows?

 

[Hulk]

Quite simply, I'd say that, as of now, there is more than a 50-50% chance spread that the deal will happen.
It's gotten too far to miss, too much was invested so that both sides have too much to lose IMHoO.
The clues from various sources point in that direction. I wouldn't have said that even 3 months back.

Thanks for your reply and have a great day, Tay.

P.S. "Extraordinary" lives are not solely due to those who live them.
Past being open to play hard, you need circumstances too. For
instance, a great warrior born in a land at peace for his lifetime
will never accomplish the exploits he ( she ) was able to.

What's more, you're not dead!
You may turn extraordinary tomorrow, who knows?

I think, ,my earlier post was misunderstood. I am not saying Rafale is not happening, it is happening. I think Parikar is of opinion to reduce Rafale count and increase LCA. I was talking about something else cooking on side. I am getting a feel that US is involved in IAC2 and EMALS is being discussed. There is news that IAC2 might have US EMALS, I see that happening and the aircraft for EMALS might be P18 Advance Super Hornet. Different discussion but still part of discussion going on with US on aircraft. It might happen that US might help India get better/bigger IAC2 to justify buying F18 in large numbers as home production. IAC2 and F18 is going to be a decent punch.