Rafale deal: India, France clinch offset deal; France agrees to invest 50% worth in related sectors

[Ankit Kumar 001]

All I can say us , don't belive anything about Rafale by media till next years first quarter.

The news is all speculation.

And if we are actually getting the first 36, take this granted at least 100 more will follow. And yes, India will not be at a loss economcally too.

Naval MICA is being discussed more vigorously now . I don't know if it will be under the Maitri project or not.

But we are getting a lot in SAMs from France and Israel in next 18 months

And the S400 new is hoax till now, IAF hasn't conveyed anything officially to the MOD. Don't fall for it .

And F18s were always on offer, it was brought up officially every time the American President or defence Secretary visited India, only it didn't got into media.

 

[anant_s]

Advance Super Hornet is a beast

there is no doubt about its capabilities but projected AMCA has similar role and therefore it is difficult to see how F 18 can go along with Rafale already selected.
That bit said i think F 35 stands a good chance 2-3 squadrons perhaps if EMALS is cleared for sale to India for IAC 2 and subsequent ships along with E2D. Planners would be taking J 31 threat into account in future. Boeing has made considerable sales to India and maybe its time to give a share of pie to Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

there is no doubt about its capabilities but projected AMCA has similar role and therefore it is difficult to see how F 18 can go along with Rafale already selected.
That bit said i think F 35 stands a good chance 2-3 squadrons perhaps if EMALS is cleared for sale to India for IAC 2 and subsequent ships along with E2D. Planners would be taking J 31 threat into account in future. Boeing has made considerable sales to India and maybe its time to give a share of pie to Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.

F35 has no chance in India. Even with EMALS IN will opt for LCA or AMCA.

 

[I M Sikander]

@Abingdonboy @Gabriel92

This deal is taking up so much time and energy of both sides

That means it is going to be a BIG DEAL ; much more than 36 planes

That is the most important takeaway ; How many Rafales will we get

Its just 36, chill dude.

 

[anant_s]

F35 has no chance in India. Even with EMALS IN will opt for LCA or AMCA.

Well stranger things have happened in Indian Defence Aerospace, haven't they?
Recent reports confirm that US will collaborate with India on IAC 2 project which should be in range of 65-70 K tons.
Now we don't require such large ship for Naval LCA, so obviously IN is looking to operate larger fighters and fixed wing AEW (hence E2D).
Northrop Grumman’s E-2D Advanced Hawkeye offer to Indian Navy Still stands : Offical | idrw.org
If we keep J 31 in mind and Naval version of PAK FA platform nowhere in sight, F35 could spring up as an obvious choice.

 

[Abingdonboy]

2. It is unlikely the govt. the GoI will go for more Rafale considering they are only going to invest 35% offset in direct Aero space manufacture.

35% of a 189 Rafale order would be HUGE money.

However GoI wants the option to go for more as plan B/C and hence the offset negotiations. The current plan seems to push for 120 LCA mk-1A and then 120 LCA Mk-2.

This is not backed up by what the ACM, DM, Dassualt CEO or Boeing CEO is saying. The IAF has committed to 120 LCA but they are still looking for 126-189 Rafale class fighters, remember the MMRCA? Why does only suddenly think this requirement has disappeared? The LCA was always going to be bought in such large quantities but it was never meant to be a substitute for the MMRCA.


Please don't ignore the fact that the LCA Mk.2 AND FGFA are still both PAPER PLANES and have not been fabricated let alone conducted EGRs or actual test flights. The IAF isn't prepared to take a "wait and watch" approach with these projects not when its adversaries are inducting new jets every month. The Rafale is the safe bet, it has a clear upgrade road map and is a proven war machine that has impressed all who have studied it.

Rafale will now have to compete with PAKFA for any further sales.

This is based on what? This is absolutely absurd. These two fighters are not in direct competition one is a 4.5++ fighter, the other a 5th ten fighter- how can they compete for future orders? If this were true and the Rafale was selected instead of the FGFA (the IAF is not interested in the PAK-FA) in 15-20 years the IAF is going to be in a problem when 5th gen fighters are opposing it all around the world/region.

The competition will be between Dassault+ Reliance vs Sukoi+HAL..

See above- this is not supported by any facts nor does it satisfy any logical examination.

IF Indian govt. really wanted to build Rafale in India they would not have opted for direct purchase of 36 Rafale as a seperate deal.

Well this has been addressed numerous times. The MoD/GoI were FORCED to do so because the MMRCA competition had become paralysed and there was no route out other than to scrap the entire process as it was. The MoD/GoI then took a different path to meet this requirement- 36 jets to meet the IAF's immediate requirement whilst the issues of domestic production were being ironed out.

The 36 rafale is to douse the IAF Fire. Once that is done, strategic purchase will define the way ahead.

This isn't how military procurements are done in India- it is always about the needs of the forces, not about strategic compulsions.

Not both. There is not enough money for both.

Based on what? India has the fastest growing economy in the world right now looking to spend $340+ BN on defence purchases by 2025, it will be a $5TN economy spending $150+ BN a year on defence by the time the final payments for the Rafales have to be paid (in around 2025/6).

There will be 189 built. Only it will be either Rafale or PakFa.

Absurd. The IAF's original requirement was for 200-250 FGFA AND 126-189 Rafales, it was NEVER a case of either or, why do you now consider it to be? Is the economy in worse shape now then it was 5-7 year ago?

This concept itself is absurd. Reliance has ZERO knowledge in Aerospace.

With this logic no private player will ever be allowed to get anywhere in this industry, everyone has to start somewhere and the private sector has shown an impressive ability to absorb technology and best practices and apply them in India. Look at TATA.

ooks more like ground work bieng laid for a totally Russian built single seat FGFA and possibally the land based version of F/A-18 E/F as LCA MK2, AMCA & F/A-18 E/F will have engine comminality

This is the least likely scenario. Forget about engine commonality- this is a minor issue, the IAF isn't going to allow 2 different fighters for the EXACT SAME role in their force, the entire purpose of the Rafale/MMRCA was to REDUCE the number of fighter types in their inventory- they aren't going to duplicate services.


Apply some common logic guys, the simplest solution is often the best. All this talking of alternatives and buying xyz and out of the box thinking is juvenile- this is not how these things go. The IAF has planned for a certain force level that included the Rafale, LCA and FGFA all in huge numbers- nothing has changed, they may even require more given the deteriorating security situation internationally.

by the time India get's all it's 36 Rafales the F-35 will cost less than $80 million per

Lockheed eyes 2-4 percent cost reduction in next F-35 contract | Reuters

it's still in LRIP just waiting for FRP and the cost reductions


U.S bought 43 F-35s for $4 billion so I wouldn't be surprised if India could of bought 80 to 90 for $9 billion, but no ToT or offset clause

Forget that, the F-35 program is in a whole world of trouble, they haven't met a single deadline to date, the plane is still yet to meet its IOC specifications and partners are pulling out and reconsidering their purchases. Every unit that isn't ordered (US is looking to reduce-Canada won't be buying now) is going to ADD to the unit price. No one who is looking at the F-35 program today (other than Lockheed Martin) is saying this plane is ever going to cost anywhere near $80 MN a plane.

SNAFU!: F-35 Block 4 Upgrade list is unaffordable!

SNAFU!: F-35 News. Stick a fork in it...

SNAFU!: McCain calls DEATH SPIRAL for F-35!!!!!

SNAFU!: F-35 News. Bogdan gives the news about Canada leaving the program...



The 80 million figure was based on a certain quality of F-35s being built that will now never be realised.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Neither LCA nor AMCA are or projected to be EMALS capable, nor could we consult anyone in making them so as only USA and France has technology for Catapult launch. It would be prudent of us to buy F-35C for IAC2 and avail consultancy services of Boeing/LM for follow on carriers.

Buying whole package of EMALS, F-35C, and E-2Ds make much more sense than buying Rafale-M for carrier. LCA would simply would not be good enough, and AMCA-M would not materialize before 2030-35.

F-35C would also serve as an insurance policy in case Airforce FGFA turn out to be duds.Also I personally have equal trust in Russians and Americans.

Your faith in US is touching but US laws ensure strings.

IN has already faced sanctions which grounded its Harrier fleet as well as Sea King helis'. After that IN has avowed never to go with foreign AC (especially NATO) whenever possible. Their desire for Indian maal is almost maniacal.

Which is why F35 is a no sale. IN will NEVER go for it. IF Rafale is made in India, IN will go for it.

It does not matter if LCA is not good enough, IN will support with ALL their Heart. That is IN.

They will always pick a Desi crap over a shiny foreign maal.

In any case INS Vishal will be built and internationalised only by 2032-35. So AMCA can very well fly off it. Both are in design phase and AMCA is ahead of Vishal. Beside IN does good Project Management.

 

[Abingdonboy]

F35 has no chance in India. Even with EMALS IN will opt for LCA or AMCA.

Well this is just prideful nonsense. The N-LCA is still under development and is having enough troubles operating from STOBAR, no one (ADA, MoD or IN) has shown any indication it is going to be configured for CATOBAR ops let alone EMALS. A similar story for the AMCA and has the IN even shown any interest in it?

+ If EMALS is coming the US will push the F-35- one of few a/c to have actually been tested on an EMALS test rig.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Well stranger things have happened in Indian Defence Aerospace, haven't they?
Recent reports confirm that US will collaborate with India on IAC 2 project which should be in range of 65-70 K tons.
Now we don't require such large ship for Naval LCA, so obviously IN is looking to operate larger fighters and fixed wing AEW (hence E2D).
Northrop Grumman’s E-2D Advanced Hawkeye offer to Indian Navy Still stands : Offical | idrw.org
If we keep J 31 in mind and Naval version of PAK FA platform nowhere in sight, F35 could spring up as an obvious choice.

Knowing IN, the obvious choice will be AMCA.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Your faith in US is toughing but US laws ensure strings.

IN has already faced sanctions which grounded its Harrier fleet as well as Sea King helis'.

Which is why F35 is a no sale. IN will NEVER go for it.

Please, this is 2015 look at the realities. The US is never going to sanction India again and the IN knows it. Has the threat of sanctions stopped the IN buying/looking at AMERICAN P-8Is, S-70Bs, MQ-4Cs? Harpoons? E-2D? Or asking the US for their EMALS tech?

After that IN has avowed never to go with foreign AC (especially NATO) whenever possible. Their desire for Indian maal is almost maniacal.

Excuse me? When did the IN make such an absurd statement? Was it before or after they went for the British Sea Harrier? The American Sea King? The American P-8I? The British Hawk AJT? The French Chetak? The German Do-228? The Russian MiG-29K?

It does not matter if LCA is not good enough, IN will support with ALL their Heart. That is IN.

Well sure but they won't cut off their nose to spite their face, they are professionals and pragmatists- the development of the N-LCA didn't stop them inducting the MiG-29K as their frontline Naval fighter. Remind me which Indian company builds the MiG-29K?

n any case INS Vishal will be built and internationalised only by 2032-35. So AMCA can very well fly off it.

Nonsense. The work on IAC-2 will begin in 2016/17 and she will be in service by 2025/6- there is NO WAY the AMCA will be in service with the IAF by that date let alone the N-AMCA (not even a projected variant as of yet).

Knowing IN, the obvious choice will be AMCA.

You don't seem to be aware of the facts. The IN has, to date, shown ZERO interest in the AMCA. If it was to be their baby they should have taken full ownership of the project and ensured it was designed as a carrier fighter from the ground up instead they are going to have to navalise an air force fighter with all the trouble that shall bring- see the N-LCA project for more details.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

35% of a 189 Rafale order would be HUGE money.

100% of 189 Rafale is Larger Still.

This is not backed up by what the ACM, DM, Dassualt CEO or Boeing CEO is saying. The IAF has committed to 120 LCA but they are still looking for 126-189 Rafale class fighters, remember the MMRCA? Why does only suddenly think this requirement has disappeared? The LCA was always going to be bought in such large quantities but it was never meant to be a substitute for the MMRCA.

MMRCA is Dead. The DM himself has said it. What more prof do you need ?

The requirements will not be met by either Rafale OR PAKFA. Depending on the performance of PAKFA and the deal offered.

It will be a mix of Quality and Quantity. LCA will make up with Quantity.

Please don't ignore the fact that the LCA Mk.2 AND FGFA are still both PAPER PLANES and have not been fabricated let alone conducted EGRs or actual test flights. The IAF isn't prepared to take a "wait and watch" approach with these projects not when its adversaries are inducting new jets every month. The Rafale is the safe bet, it has a clear upgrade road map and is a proven war machine that has impressed all who have studied it.

True. Any possibility of a war involving these aircrafts is only on paper too.

Economic Realities however are no on paper, we live in everyday. It is happening NOW. That take preference over speculative future.

IAF will do what the GoI ask's it to do. If GoI ays Jump, IAF need to ask "how high".

No one is doubting Rafale's capability. Only its Worth and Value over alternatives. Clearly the choice is not obvious.

This is based on what? This is absolutely absurd. These two fighters are not in direct competition one is a 4.5++ fighter, the other a 5th ten fighter- how can they compete for future orders? If this were true and the Rafale was selected instead of the FGFA (the IAF is not interested in the PAK-FA) in 15-20 years the IAF is going to be in a problem when 5th gen fighters are opposing it all around the world/region.

PAKFA was not on offer during MMRCA. Lot of water has flown under that bridge and new realities call for new decisions.

Russia has a total of 6 PAKFA flying so far and Economic realities facing Russia will make them come to India. DM visit to Russia at the end of this month will clarify matters.

Well this has been addressed numerous times. The MoD/GoI were FORCED to do so because the MMRCA competition had become paralysed and there was no route out other than to scrap the entire process as it was. The MoD/GoI then took a different path to meet this requirement- 36 jets to meet the IAF's immediate requirement whilst the issues of domestic production were being ironed out.

What ever be the reason, GoI has decide on a way forward keeping Indians best interest in mind. So far that does not involve giving a larger order for Rafale. That can change in the future, but as of today the deal is for 36.

This isn't how military procurements are done in India- it is always about the needs of the forces, not about strategic compulsions.

Guess what ? Its a new day. Need of the forces is now part of the strategic equation.

Based on what? India has the fastest growing economy in the world right now looking to spend $340+ BN on defence purchases by 2025, it will be a $5TN economy spending $150+ BN a year on defence by the time the final payments for the Rafales have to be paid (in around 2025/6).

Based on the fact that India does not want to spend 340 billion $ to help foreign companies to grow. They want to spend the bulk of that amount in India.

There is NO reason why a 5 TN $ economy has to buy from a foreign nation.

Absurd. The IAF's original requirement was for 200-250 FGFA AND 126-189 Rafales, it was NEVER a case of either or, why do you now consider it to be? Is the economy in worse shape now then it was 5-7 year ago?

That was when the IAF treated LCA like a leper. Today they do not have that luxury. GoI is pretty clear about it.

With this logic no private player will ever be allowed to get anywhere in this industry, everyone has to start somewhere and the private sector has shown an impressive ability to absorb technology and best practices and apply them in India. Look at TATA.

For the moment the idea is to have a second production line for LCA by a private player. This will continue for AMCA.

Technology "absorption" argument is a Farce. India never had any significant issue with absorbing technology. Others had a problem with sharing it. The absorption barrier was just another way of spinning their reluctance to our incompetence.

Well this is just prideful nonsense. The N-LCA is still under development and is having enough troubles operating from STOBAR, no one (ADA, MoD or IN) has shown any indication it is going to be configured for CATOBAR ops let alone EMALS. A similar story for the AMCA and has the IN even shown any interest in it?

+ If EMALS is coming the US will push the F-35- one of few a/c to have actually been tested on an EMALS test rig.

So far IN is the only one wh ohas shown any interest in LCA and AMCA

US can push for whatever they want. Neither GoI nor IN will go for it. EMALS and maybe EC3 is the only possibility as of now.

Please, this is 2015 look at the realities. The US is never going to sanction India again and the IN knows it. Has the threat of sanctions stopped the IN buying/looking at AMERICAN P-8Is, S-70Bs, MQ-4Cs? Harpoons? E-2D? Or asking the US for their EMALS tech?

LOL...that is Rubbish.

All it takes is ONE nuclear test for US to sanction us again. ........ we still need to test our H-bomb.

P-8I is not mission critical. S-70B will be Made in India. Missiles don't need maintenance. its a one time buy.

Excuse me? When did the IN make such an absurd statement? Was it before or after they went for the British Sea Harrier? The American Sea King? The American P-8I? The British Hawk AJT? The French Chetak? The German Do-228? The Russian MiG-29K?

After buying the sea Harrier and Sea King and AFTER facing the sanction that grounded them. AJT has full ToT so does Do 228 and so does Chetak.

There is NO HISTORY of Russian sanctions.

Well sure but they won't cut off their nose to spite their face, they are professionals and pragmatists- the development of the N-LCA didn't stop them inducting the MiG-29K as their frontline Naval fighter. Remind me which Indian company builds the MiG-29K?

Mig 29K was plan B. Plan A continues to be LCA. Besides that was the deal to get INS Viki. It came as a combo pack.

Nonsense. The work on IAC-2 will begin in 2016/17 and she will be in service by 2025/6- there is NO WAY the AMCA will be in service with the IAF by that date let alone the N-AMCA (not even a projected variant as of yet).

LOL.... Even the deign of IAC 2 has not started. Even its tonnage has not been decided

IN is still contemplating these and collecting relevant info to make a final decision.

The plan to make IAC-1 started in 1989. It will be commissioned only by 2018. That is how long it took from Plan to commissioning. 29 years.

Expect at least a reasonable 20-25 years for IAC-2. So if its startes in 2016, when does it get commissioned ?

2035 is a VERY reasonable estimate. Not Fan boy estimate.

You don't seem to be aware of the facts. The IN has, to date, shown ZERO interest in the AMCA. If it was to be their baby they should have taken full ownership of the project and ensured it was designed as a carrier fighter from the ground up instead they are going to have to navalise an air force fighter with all the trouble that shall bring- see the N-LCA project for more details.

IN joined the AMCA program in 2008. In fact its already decided that the first AMCA being built will be for the IN. The development plan will be similar to Rafale.

 

[Abingdonboy]

MMRCA is Dead. The DM himself has said it. What more prof do you need ?

The MMRCA competition IS dead. The MMRCA competition was about 6 fighters going head to head for 126 jets with 18 being bought off the shelf and 108 being built by HAL. This has been scrapped entirely. 36 are bing bought off the shelf in a govt-govt deal and Dassualt is going to partner with an Indian consortium of their choice to build follow on Rafales in India.

It will be a mix of Quality and Quantity. LCA will make up with Quantity.

Sheer lunacy. When did the LCA become an F-22? Do you know what neighbourhood India lives in? Do you know the capabilities of the LCA or its intended role? The LCA is a POINT DEFENCE fighter and you want it become the backbone of the IAF? Is this a joke?

Economic Realities however are no on paper, we live in everyday. It is happening NOW. That take preference over speculative future.

What economic realities are these? Has India suddenly become a lot poorer in the last 2 years? The economic realities are more balanced in India's favour now and into the future than they have for at least 6 years.

PAKFA was not on offer during MMRCA. Lot of water has flown under that bridge and new realities call for new decisions.

Now this is sheer nonsense. So if the PAK-FA had been around earlier it would have been offered in the MMRCA contest? The Su-30MKI was around but it wasn't even considered, do you know why? Do you know the reason the IAF needs a MMRCA? Do you know the difference between a deep strike fighter and an air supremacy fighter and a fifth generation fighter at that?

You are the one talking about economic realities but are pushing for the PAK-FA over the Rafale. Let me make it clear to you this is not economically prudent. Your ideal IAF force seems to be incredibly top-heavy with giant Russian fighters (PAK-FA and MKI) making up around 500 fighters and the LCA around 300 with nothing in between. Do I need to explain to you why this is totally insane? Okay, so these Russian heavies will have to take care of both air supremacy and strike missions (even though neither are meant to cry out the latter) but being heavy RUSSIAN fighters their availability will be abysmal (75% for the MKIs, god knows what the PAK-FA will deliver, you'll be lucky to get 65% I'd have thought).So what are you left with? The single engined LIGHT Combat Aircraft (with a limited range and payload) having to perform deep strike missions? Is this really your fantasy?

Please, the IAF knows its job better than you and hence have stipulated their requirements and will have them met accordingly.

I'm sorry but you are talking nonsense and your delusions are based on your ego and not based on the reality of modern warfare or anything actually tangible.

What ever be the reason, GoI has decide on a way forward keeping Indians best interest in mind. So far that does not involve giving a larger order for Rafale. That can change in the future, but as of today the deal is for 36.

The Rafale in large numbers supporting the LCA, MKI and FGFA is in India's best interest.


In case you can't see it- a fleet of 36 Rafales only is the WORST thing you could do with India's interests. Do you really think the MoD/GoI is stupid enough to invite such an own-goal? 36 fighters isn't enough for even 2 SQNs and how will they be supported? Ever heard of economies of scale? The CAG would, rightly, rip the GoI apart for such an absurd deal.

Based on the fact that India does not want to spend 340 billion $ to help foreign companies to grow. They want to spend the bulk of that amount in India.

You clearly haven't heard the DM's latest remarks. Make in India is their priority but then so is getting the requirements for the forces. This includes foreign OEMs making their products in India so this Rafale deal fits perfectly. 36 Rafales bought off the shelf undermines Make In India entirely.

Show me India's homegrown alternative to the Rafale or don't use this logic.

There is NO reason why a 5 TN $ economy has to buy from a foreign nation.

India isn't a $5TN USD economy today and you have entirely missed the point I was trying to make. I am making it clear to you the funds are there for the Rafale purchase, no one has said any differently.

So far IN is the only one wh ohas shown any interest in LCA and AMCA

Haha, really? Provide me a single source the IN has put even a rupee behind the AMCA. And who will be the first operators of the LCA? It certainly won't be the IN.

US can push for whatever they want. Neither GoI nor IN will go for it. EMALS and maybe EC3 is the only possibility as of now.

The IN will get what they want as they should be allowed to and that will include a hell of a lot of US kit- deal with it.

All it takes is ONE nuclear test for US to sanction us again. ........ we still need to test our H-bomb.

Why would India test its nuclear weapons again?

P-8I is not mission critical. S-70B will be Made in India. Missiles don't need maintenance. its a one time buy.

The P-8I isn't mission critical??? Okay.

The S-70B will be made in India? NOPE. Not the first 16 and even if it was, so what? Does being made in India mean anything if the US wants to sanction India? Is the C-17 made in India? Is the C-130? Is the Chinook? Oh these aren't mission critical either are they? I mean, what is the use of transporting things during war? The fact India is going for American kit more and more means the India of today realises sanctions are not a threat to them.

After buying the sea Harrier and Sea King and AFTER facing the sanction that grounded them. AJT has full ToT so does Do 228 and so does Chetak.

So ToT means you become sanction proof? Cool story.

Mig 29K was plan B. Plan A continues to be LCA. Besides that was the deal to get INS Viki. It came as a combo pack.

Haha, what? The MiG-29K was "plan b"? What utter BS is this? Where have you heard this? The Vikramditya deal was conditional on India selecting the MiG-29K or Su-33 to fly off it. The N-LCA has yet to fly off an actual carrier to date but it is somehow "plan a"??


How the MiG-29K has become "plan b" I'll never now.

LOL.... Even the deign of IAC 2 has not started. Even its tonnage has not been decided

Umm, the IAC-2's design is alma finalised, I don't know what planet you are living on.

The plan to make IAC-1 started in 1989. It will be commissioned only by 2018. That is how long it took from Plan to commissioning. 29 years.

Irrelevent details. When did construction actually begin on the IAC-1? When was the keel laid? 2009 Barring a few issues with the production (the writing off of its gearboxes in a road accident and issues in sourcing the correct quality steel that have now been addressed) the IAC-1 would have been in service from next year.

IAC-2 will likely take slightly longer so a time frame 8-9 years is reasonable from when the keel is laid (sometime in 2016/17). 2025/6 is the target for commissioning.

Expect at least a reasonable 20-25 years for IAC-2. So if its startes in 2016, when does it get commissioned ?

You can't be serious.

IN joined the AMCA program in 2008. In fact its already decided that the first AMCA being built will be for the IN.

Provide me a single source, this is 100% cr@p.






I thought you and I simply had a difference of opinion but it is now clear you are actually delusional and have no idea of the realities. Some of the things you are saying are simply mind-boggling to me.

@PARIKRAMA @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @anant_s I'm out, I can't be bothered anymore.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

The MMRCA competition IS dead. The MMRCA competition was about 6 fighters going head to head for 126 jets with 18 being bought off the shelf and 108 being built by HAL. This has been scrapped entirely. 36 are bing bought off the shelf in a govt-govt deal and Dassualt is going to partner with an Indian consortium of their choice to build follow on Rafales in India.

Maybe, Maybe Not. that continues to be the GoI stand.

Sheer lunacy. When did the LCA become an F-22? Do you know what neighbourhood India lives in? Do you know the capabilities of the LCA or its intended role? The LCA is a POINT DEFENCE fighter and you want it become the backbone of the IAF? Is this a joke?

Rhetoric's will not change reality. LCA is going to be inducted in significant numbers. Su 30MKI and 36 Rafale will be the upper end.

PAKFA is likely to be the future.

What economic realities are these? Has India suddenly become a lot poorer in the last 2 years? The economic realities are more balanced in India's favour now and into the future than they have for at least 6 years.

Economic realities that ask India to spend more money on Make in India than foreign maal. So for the moment LCA it is.

If PAKFA is going to be completely Made in India like Su 30 then Rafale has no chance.

Now this is sheer nonsense. So if the PAK-FA had been around earlier it would have been offered in the MMRCA contest? The Su-30MKI was around but it wasn't even considered, do you know why? Do you know the reason the IAF needs a MMRCA? Do you know the difference between a deep strike fighter and an air supremacy fighter and a fifth generation fighter at that?

Deep strike fighter will probably be replaced by cruise missiles and armed drone. For the moment its speculative.

You are the one talking about economic realities but are pushing for the PAK-FA over the Rafale. Let me make it clear to you this is not economically prudent. Your ideal IAF force seems to be incredibly top-heavy with giant Russian fighters (PAK-FA and MKI) making up around 500 fighters and the LCA around 300 with nothing in between. Do I need to explain to you why this is totally insane? Okay, so these Russian heavies will have to take care of both air supremacy and strike missions (even though neither are meant to cry out the latter) but being heavy RUSSIAN fighters their availability will be abysmal (75% for the MKIs, god knows what the PAK-FA will deliver, you'll be lucky to get 65% I'd have thought).So what are you left with? The single engined LIGHT Combat Aircraft (with a limited range and payload) having to perform deep strike missions? Is this really your fantasy?

You forget 36 Rafale

We are discussing YOUR Fantasy. I don't care either way. I am going by available Facts and probably scenario based on those facts.

Please, the IAF knows its job better than you and hence have stipulated their requirements and will have them met accordingly.

I'm sorry but you are talking nonsense and your delusions are based on your ego and not based on the reality of modern warfare or anything actually tangible.

if IAF knew its job the Air Chief would not have gone to the press saying tehre is no Plan B to Rafale purchase. Their credibility is irreparable damaged.

The Rafale in large numbers supporting the LCA, MKI and FGFA is in India's best interest.

Apparently not as per the GoI.

In case you can't see it- a fleet of 36 Rafales only is the WORST thing you could do with India's interests. Do you really think the MoD/GoI is stupid enough to invite such an own-goal? 36 fighters isn't enough for even 2 SQNs and how will they be supported? Ever heard of economies of scale? The CAG would, rightly, rip the GoI apart for such an absurd deal.

Your objections and frustrations is duly noted. But they don't count for much.

You clearly haven't heard the DM's latest remarks. Make in India is their priority but then so is getting the requirements for the forces. This includes foreign OEMs making their products in India so this Rafale deal fits perfectly. 36 Rafales bought off the shelf undermines Make In India entirely.

Show me India's homegrown alternative to the Rafale or don't use this logic.

No need for 126 Rafales, says defence minister Manohar Parrikar - The Economic Times

India isn't a $5TN USD economy today and you have entirely missed the point I was trying to make. I am making it clear to you the funds are there for the Rafale purchase, no one has said any differently.

India is a 2TN $ economy today. Good enough to stop buying foreign AC. Its is much larger than Russian economy.

Haha, really? Provide me a single source the IN has put even a rupee behind the AMCA. And who will be the first operators of the LCA? It certainly won't be the IN.

IAF will be first operator for LCA. IN will be first operator for AMCA. Do you have trouble understanding english ?

The IN will get what they want as they should be allowed to and that will include a hell of a lot of US kit- deal with it.

LOL.... I have no problem either way. You are the one with fantasies or 189 Rafale.

Why would India test its nuclear weapons again?

Because our weapons are still immature and has not been field tested under actual conditions. Also our Thermos-nuclear test was a partial success.

The P-8I isn't mission critical??? Okay.

The S-70B will be made in India? NOPE. Not the first 16 and even if it was, so what? Does being made in India mean anything if the US wants to sanction India? Is the C-17 made in India? Is the C-130? Is the Chinook? Oh these aren't mission critical either are they? I mean, what is the use of transporting things during war? The fact India is going for American kit more and more means the India of today realises sanctions are not a threat to them.

P-8I is unlikely to be affected by sanctions since the AC parts is commercial and easily available. C-17 and C-130 can be replaced with IL 78. Chinook by LCH. besides they do not operate in large numbers either.

So ToT means you become sanction proof? Cool story.

That is the general Ideal.

Haha, what? The MiG-29K was "plan b"? What utter BS is this? Where have you heard this? The Vikramditya deal was conditional on India selecting the MiG-29K or Su-33 to fly off it. The N-LCA has yet to fly off an actual carrier to date but it is somehow "plan a"??

IAC-1 was designed with LCA in mind. Your ignorance notwithstanding,

How the MiG-29K has become "plan b" I'll never now.

Plan b for IAC-1.

Umm, the IAC-2's design is alma finalised, I don't know what planet you are living on.

LOL... even its propulsion is not decided ...... will it be nuclear or Conventional ? what is its tonnage ?

Irrelevent details. When did construction actually begin on the IAC-1? When was the keel laid? 2009 Barring a few issues with the production (the writing off of its gearboxes in a road accident and issues in sourcing the correct quality steel that have now been addressed) the IAC-1 would have been in service from next year.

IAC-2 will likely take slightly longer so a time frame 8-9 years is reasonable from when the keel is laid (sometime in 2016/17). 2025/6 is the target for commissioning.

What you call irrelevant detail is what life cycle of a Program looks like. Your ignorance of it does not make it any less real.

You want to fantasise about IAC-2 before 2035, dream on.

I thought you and I simply had a difference of opinion but it is now clear you are actually delusional and have no idea of the realities. Some of the things you are saying are simply mind-boggling to me.

@PARIKRAMA @Water Car Engineer @Koovie @anant_s I'm out, I can't be bothered anymore.

Opinions of others don't make your fantasies any more true.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I know I said I was out but I couldn't let this one pass unnoticed:

C-17 and C-130 can be replaced with IL 78. Chinook by LCH.

Didn't realise we had such an esteemed defence expert on here.....


This is why I no longer want to waste my time discussing these matters with you- you are out of your depth and wrong on almost every count, you don't even have a grasp of the most basic facts and instead of being interested in learning you are being belligerent and argumentative.

 

[Taygibay]

Two precisions to help you guys debate :

That is the most important takeaway ; How many Rafales will we get

Corridor / hallway rumors from France : min. expected number from this deal's follow-through is at 90.
Cannot specify sources which is rare for me but another Fr PDF member may be able to do so.

u think they will roll out 6 Each year for India only when the Production rate in TOTAL is 11-12 Planes a year ! ?

Dassault by way of Éric Trappier has already announced that production will be tripled ASAP.

https://twitter.com/x/status/647103099866337281

The chain was mind you originally designed for a 33 planes yearly output. It was only the lack of orders from
abroad and the "meager" * acquisition spending that kept it running in first gear. Bringing it up to speed only ( sic )
requires hiring / forming employees in all plants related so the line can finally reach full production capability.
That will still take over a year to accomplish but the Indian calendar given by Abingdonboy is easily feasible.

Good day and discussion all, Tay.

* Meager in context, not worldwide of course. I suppose quite a few countries would be over-joyed to be able
to afford only 11 Rafales a year for their AF.