Rafale and JF-17 Thunder to compete in Serbia.

[Luftwaffe]

Mani2020; Internet and online forums are a great medium to convey your message as you said but not all internet pages are the right places for example where you joined non is listening to you and Pakistani members are flying here and there being banned biasedly. Believe me I have joined smaller and other forums and have cancelled my membership after no hope or voice infact philippines defense forces forum has hindustani members promoting lca as better then block 60 Viper how halarious could it get.
Stick to better forums with unbiased members/moderators/administrators. Products are not purchased by the Air Forces reading praises of products on forums, they are Evaluated now here comes the Real Promoters LM, CAC-PAC-BAE and so on will CAC-PAC be as good in marketing only insiders would know. Know that you are doing great on this forum else where you would be called fanboy, one of them is worldaffairsboar.d purely build for hindustani-americans where S2 also resides bashes-insults Pakistan previously being a moderator there. I'd stick to one forum with reputation rather then picking on many.

Ok back to thread topic..

Mav3rick and Sapper, Serbian AF just wants a modern fighter easily maintainable cost effective low operational cost, PAF had purchased alot with F-16s. For US there is no fixed cost of F-16s or F-18 or F-15s whatever US bargains that would be the Price, you guys know US have surplus F-16s in storage what do they lose to offer 16 refurbished upgraded F-16s for $1.3B to Serbian Air Force, they don't lose and they do make a point in International market everyone was so sure indonesia would not buy F-16s I told most over here it is a done deal there is no better offer then US F-16s see indonesians took it and ordered despite bad past. These F-16s are surplus and peanuts to US.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Pakistan should sell weapons to serbians so they can bomb innocent muslims?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Pakistan should sell weapons to serbians so they can bomb innocent muslims?

very tragic

Saudis should sell oil to US and Israel so that they fly planes to bomb innocent Muslims? here is a dilemma that even Israelis and Americans face too when they say that the weapons they sell can end up in the hands of the terrorist that might kill their innocent civilians.

Business Vs moral values .. hmm very hard choices here. Even harder than the surface of the F1 tracks made by Dubai Shikhs to arrange F1 races participated by Westerners in their multi million dollar super cars while few hundred miles away the Palestinians live in the worlds biggest concentration camp under appalling conditions.

We already exported our missionaries to Bahrain to spill the blood of the civilians that rose up against the tyrant rulers. I think we are past that moral dilemma now, thanks to the Saudis and the 80s Jihad and Islamic perfection we got from House of Saud, such petty thoughts will never stop us from selling our weapons to African countries too, now if they decide to use them against the Muslim rebels then it will be they not us answerable to Allah.

 

[Sapper]

Pakistan should sell weapons to serbians so they can bomb innocent muslims?

Well there are two points of view. One is not to sell them, Two is sell them and control them.

Now if you dont sell them, thats good, and i am in favor of it. But that doesnot mean that they will not get weapons, instead they will get them from someone else.

Conversely, if you sell them, you will have presence in their country (like Chinese/American/French presence in Pakistan) and you will have a bit of say in their decisions. And while making a decision whether or not to bomb innocent muslims, it will be in the back of their minds that their weapon supplier will get angry and not sell it to them anymore.

I would prefer PAF/PAC not take part in this deal, rather let it go through CATIC channels if they so desire. This will uphold the current perception that PAF does not supply arms to be used against muslims, and to be truthful here, I for one dont want it to happen. But if they do get Chinese weapons (with PAC share), that will allow Pakistan to have a say (delivered indirectly through China) if Serbians ever used them against mulims.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Zabaniyah]

Pakistan should sell weapons to serbians so they can bomb innocent muslims?

Well, my country recently did procure some Nora B-52 self-propelled artillery from Serbia.

IDR 19-Oct-2011 BRIEF: Bangladesh receives Serbian howitzers - Aerospace & Defense - Eqentia

It was business as usual

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Pakistan should sell weapons to serbians so they can bomb innocent muslims?

Simple logic,

If you don't someone else will.

Why not make some money and then put an embargo.

 

[mughaljee]

After selling you can't control them sir .

 

[Zabaniyah]

After selling you can't control them sir .

Depends on the 'hows'. I do not think Pakistan alone can fully control that matter.

 

[Mav3rick]

very tragic

Saudis should sell oil to US and Israel so that they fly planes to bomb innocent Muslims? here is a dilemma that even Israelis and Americans face too when they say that the weapons they sell can end up in the hands of the terrorist that might kill their innocent civilians.

Business Vs moral values .. hmm very hard choices here. Even harder than the surface of the F1 tracks made by Dubai Shikhs to arrange F1 races participated by Westerners in their multi million dollar super cars while few hundred miles away the Palestinians live in the worlds biggest concentration camp under appalling conditions.

We already exported our missionaries to Bahrain to spill the blood of the civilians that rose up against the tyrant rulers. I think we are past that moral dilemma now, thanks to the Saudis and the 80s Jihad and Islamic perfection we got from House of Saud, such petty thoughts will never stop us from selling our weapons to African countries too, now if they decide to use them against the Muslim rebels then it will be they not us answerable to Allah.

Quite appreciate and agree with your post except the last para. I have a Bahraini friend and he said the rulers are the best rules one can imagine atleast for their own citizens and also said those who rose against these leaders were just a few and that too under outside influence.

 

[Donatello]

Dear,

There is a difference between posting a comment, and posting result of your research and analysis. Go to my profile and look for my posts, and you'll find out that 95% of my posts are presenting results of some research, rather then a tit for tat responce. I guess thats the reason why my friends and coworkers call me Sapper-pedia.

Now back to research. In 2006 PAF ordered 18(+18) new F16s at cost of 1.5b(+1.5b) USD. This Included 36 Sniper & 36 ALQ-211 AIDEW pods, Spares, 36 JHMCS, and accerories for F16-BL52+, associated support equipment and training.
Armament cost of this deal was worth 650m USD, with 500 AMRAAMS, 200 AIM9M, and ~4000 Bombs & Kits, associated support equipment and training. This armament did not include Harpoons, Cluster-Bombs, Majority of Dumb-Bombs and Rockets etc, since these are already with PAF in ample amounts and we make some of these domestically as well. This armament also did not include HARM as sale of HARM to Pakistan was not allowed.

Source: $5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan’s F-16s

Now in light of this information, 36 new F16-BL52, with all ammo, associated equipment and training cost around 3650m USD, or almost 101 million USD in 2006. I dont know but since then price MUST have gone up, not down.

Regards,
Sapper

If we ordered 36 f-16s, and got 18, where did the other 18 go?

 

[Super Falcon]

well im sure they are not going for JF 17 in small numbers

 

[Luftwaffe]

If we ordered 36 f-16s, and got 18, where did the other 18 go?

I believe 18 Vipers were optional, check F-16 Thread.

 

[mkg00179504]

I agree, F-16 is a clear winner for its performance, package, value for money and proven record, Rafale is prohibitingly expensive.
re JF-17 is great that they are even considering it and it can offer a lot to them but if they have the budget that can afford F-16s they should go for them. its only Pakistan that has suffered American military embargo although being an ally, they wont have such issues.
by the way re twin engine planes, they have operated Mig29s in the past, so there is no compulsion that they cant go for such planes.

Forgive me if I am wrong but I think you are expressing the PAF insistence of multirole/ single engine fighters. Which I totally disagree with. PAF mentality of not going for air superiority twin engine planes seems a rubbish idea and the justification that such planes are too complex to maintain and fly is contradictory because on one hand we dont tire praising our pilots and technicians and on other hand we make this lame excuse. even Saudis are maintaining about 3 different twin engine jets as far as I know GR4 , EF2000 and F15s and not all of them are being maintained by Western engineers. the only valid reason as far PAF is concerned is twin engines are costly and that I can accept but no other reason.


given the available funds Serbs must not overlook the twin engine Jets. But if the single engine jets are offering everything they are looking for then fine, there is no harm in saving few hundred millions. But don’t forget all top end fighters are twin engine. and there is a reason why wolrd leading air forces have their twin engine jets as their front line fighters.

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yes i agree atleast the good thing is they are considering the JF17, and i believe it can offer them many good upgrades and other stuff in future.
On the second part about the twin engine fighters in PAF. I do agree PAF just sticking to a single engine fighter but then again they also look at its capabilities and get the best out of it.My brother in law is also pilot in PAF i usually ask the same question. why PAF is always thinking about a single engine fighter?? he tells me the main reason is its cost and to maintain it.But on top of it the single engine fighters meet our requirements and we are not a huge country that we need a big heavy fighter so badly.In the past PAF had operated dual engine fighters and even bombers.If the time and our defense needs requires it then we will go for it.But so far single engine, multi role with good radar,avionics, weapons and range is good enough for our needs.This is what PAF pilot tell me. sorry for going off topic.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

by the way re twin engine planes, they have operated Mig29s in the past, so there is no compulsion that they cant go for such planes.

Forgive me if I am wrong but I think you are expressing the PAF insistence of multirole/ single engine fighters. Which I totally disagree with. PAF mentality of not going for air superiority twin engine planes seems a rubbish idea and the justification that such planes are too complex to maintain and fly is contradictory because on one hand we dont tire praising our pilots and technicians and on other hand we make this lame excuse. even Saudis are maintaining about 3 different twin engine jets as far as I know GR4 , EF2000 and F15s and not all of them are being maintained by Western engineers. the only valid reason as far PAF is concerned is twin engines are costly and that I can accept but no other reason.


given the available funds Serbs must not overlook the twin engine Jets. But if the single engine jets are offering everything they are looking for then fine, there is no harm in saving few hundred millions. But don’t forget all top end fighters are twin engine. and there is a reason why wolrd leading air forces have their twin engine jets as their front line fighters.

..

the way i see it, the only thing is the cost issue

keep in mind that apart from flyaway cost, after-sales costs (maintenance, spares --not to mention fuel considerations) would be close to doubled. . .

PAF has been no stranger to twin engined aircrafts...... (F-6)

 

[BATMAN]

Depends on the 'hows'. I do not think Pakistan alone can fully control that matter.

I'm not sure if i got your point right.. but if Serbia is considering JFT than it must have been followed by some official contact, demo and description by PAF.

However, as i said in beginning there is no chance for any other state to have its hands on JFT any time soon.