Rafale and JF-17 Thunder to compete in Serbia.

[Luftwaffe]

but one minute your saying F16/60 why USA NOT acquired this AND NEXT BREADTH they are upgrading their F16 & F15s make your mind up, USA did operate and does operate F16 or it does not
I KNOW THEY DO infact i know the nos too

Then you did not read my Post, Yes USAF does not operate/does not have F-16 Block 60 but USAF is extensively upgrading other F-16s Blocks -F-15s what is here to make up my mind I stand correct go ahead read JDW or any other Defense Magazine. No PLAAF does not need to induct FC-1 to make it reputable.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Ahem....

List of country's that operate the F-18 and have no aircraft carriers

Australia, Switzerland (no coast hence no air craft carrier), Finland, Canada, Kuwait and Malaysia

If an Air Force has chosen the F-18 over the F-16 is because they can afford it and give priority to safety because of Hornets two engines.

In fact the only country that uses the F-18 in a Naval role is the US

All the other country's that operate air craft carrier don't fly the F-18

You are presuming men in uniform make decisions based on engineering practices.
I have not known any single one of them make the right decision , after months of cajoling, explanation, presentations, tutoring they make a decision which may be at max 30% efficient.

Just think about it, why would you want to carry an extra developed fuselage which is tailored for aircraft fielding at land ?

to me that defies logic and lack of width in market place.

 

[Tempest II]

Does this list help determine what generation the JF-17 is? ... ...

Serb Air Force Seeks New Fighter Jets | AVIATION WEEK

Top Serbian defense officials have said the country was evaluating Russian Sukhoi Su-30, the U.S.-made F-16 and F-18, France’s Rafalle, Sweden’s JAS Gripen, Chinese JF-17 or the internationally-made Eurofighter.

 

[Sapper]

Well... Everyone here is talking about the price of the Jet only. Why is that? Do they not intend to fire anything from it?

An aircraft contract always includes armaments, spares, training and infrastructure, and these should not be forgotton.

My perception of Serbian Contract.

1. Total Budget : USD 1.3 billion.
2. Number of Aircraft to be procured : 12~16, i.e. a Squadron strength atleast (plus 2 trainers optional)
3. Role : Preferrably Multi-Role, Dedicated-Air-Superiority discouraged due to lack of Land/Marine Attack Role.
4. Armament : AAM (WVR & BVR), AGM (Anti-Runway, Anti-Tank, CruiseM), A2G-bombs (dumb and PGM), ASM (cruise/super-cruise).
5. Cost of Armament Acquisition :
5A. AAM_BVR x 100 ... atleast 6+ for each of 16 aircraft. Cost: ~60m for AIM120-C5+, ~80m for 120D, ~60m for Mica, ~130m for Meteor, ~40m for R77, ~30m for SD10
5B. AAM_WVR x 60 ... <10m from all sources.
5C. AGM+A2G : ~120m for American, ~160m for European, ~70m for Russian, ~50m for Chinese; all around package.
5D. ASM x 16 : ~50m for Harpoon(Standoff), ~70m for European (Exocet etc), ~40m Russian(Brahmos etc), ~25m Chinese(Y83 etc).
6. Recce+Targetting+Jamming Pods x 16 (In Total) : 120m American (AQ211,SNIPER,LANTIRN), 120m European (Domacles,Thales), 80m Russian, 40m Chinese.
7. Training & Infrastructure : Assume equal to be 1/10 of total Aircraft cost (plus minus).
8. Aircraft Spares : 1/4 of total aircraft cost (can be plus minus, but mostly plus).
9. Aircraft Itself : Rest of Budget.
10. Aircraft Cost inclusing points 7&8&9 : 0.10 + 0.25 + 1.00 = 1.35

Now if my Calculation Serves me
Formula: Points 1 to 6 add up, then deducted from 1.3 billion, then devided by 1.35 (to include spares+training+infrastructure), then further devided by number of planes
American : 1.3b - 370m = 930m / 1.35 = 688m / 12 = 57 million USD per plane
European : 1.3b - 420m = 880m / 1.35 = 651m / 12 = 54 million USD per plane
Russian : 1.3b - 240m = 1060m / 1.35 = 785m / 12 = 65 million USD per plane
Chinese : 1.3b - 160m = 1140m / 1.35 = 844m / 18 = 46 million USD per plane (18 planes instead of 12)

Note-1: AIM-120D and Meteor were not used in calculations.
Note-2: I know serbia is landlocked but it will still require Standoff missiles, which are mostly developed from Anti-Ship-Missiles.
Note-3: Anti-Radiation missile are not included in armament list.


Now you people figure it out which plane they can buy in 1.3 billion USD and which they cannot. If you ask me, Americans and Europeans are seriously OUT because they are too expencive, unless they get 2nd hand planes or get foreign AID. But i must admit that Americans provide the best technology, followed closely by the Europeans.

Besides an important thing to notice is that they required/wanted to buy two squadrons and are pressed by budget, because they don't want to borrow additional money. They downgraded requirement to one squadron i.e. 16, and 12 will be further downgradation.
Source: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awx/2011/12/16/awx_12_16_2011_p0-407428.xml&headline=Serb%20Air%20Force%20Seeks%20New%20Fighter%20Jets

Now who can provide 32~36 in this budget, I wonder ...

Regards,
Sapper

 

[anathema]

Deleted the post

 

[mkg00179504]

hi guys, I think Serbia is small country and it just need to defend its air space.So i ll say they should leave twin engine jets and look for a single engine fighter.I still believe the best of all will be F16 block 50-52.Considering its performance, the kind of weapons it offers,easy to maintain and the most important it will do anything you want it to do.JF 17 block two will be more less the same.They can have a squadron of JF17 block two along with Chinese Awacs same like we had.IF IF IF they looking for something European, really high tech and also easy to keep and maintain then Gripen NG is the best choice with one eyrie Awacs.But i heard ACM Tanvir Mehmood Ahamad where he said Gripen is much more like an air superiority fighter.But i think Gripen NG is all diff.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

hi guys, I think Serbia is small country and it just need to defend its air space.So i ll say they should leave twin engine jets and look for a single engine fighter.I still believe the best of all will be F16 block 50-52.Considering its performance, the kind of weapons it offers,easy to maintain and the most important it will do anything you want it to do.JF 17 block two will be more less the same.They can have a squadron of JF17 block two along with Chinese Awacs same like we had.IF IF IF they looking for something European, really high tech and also easy to keep and maintain then Gripen NG is the best choice with one eyrie Awacs.But i heard ACM Tanvir Mehmood Ahamad where he said Gripen is much more like an air superiority fighter.But i think Gripen NG is all diff.

I agree, F-16 is a clear winner for its performance, package, value for money and proven record, Rafale is prohibitingly expensive.
re JF-17 is great that they are even considering it and it can offer a lot to them but if they have the budget that can afford F-16s they should go for them. its only Pakistan that has suffered American military embargo although being an ally, they wont have such issues.
by the way re twin engine planes, they have operated Mig29s in the past, so there is no compulsion that they cant go for such planes.

Forgive me if I am wrong but I think you are expressing the PAF insistence of multirole/ single engine fighters. Which I totally disagree with. PAF mentality of not going for air superiority twin engine planes seems a rubbish idea and the justification that such planes are too complex to maintain and fly is contradictory because on one hand we dont tire praising our pilots and technicians and on other hand we make this lame excuse. even Saudis are maintaining about 3 different twin engine jets as far as I know GR4 , EF2000 and F15s and not all of them are being maintained by Western engineers. the only valid reason as far PAF is concerned is twin engines are costly and that I can accept but no other reason.


given the available funds Serbs must not overlook the twin engine Jets. But if the single engine jets are offering everything they are looking for then fine, there is no harm in saving few hundred millions. But don&#8217;t forget all top end fighters are twin engine. and there is a reason why wolrd leading air forces have their twin engine jets as their front line fighters.

..

 

[Kambojaric]

I think Serbia would be hesitant on purchasing from Western powers which consequently means relying on them. I am pretty sure the Serbian people have not forgotten NATO's stance on Kosovo and can only imagine it looking towards its traditional ally Russia or China as safer options.

 

[regular]

Sir, I think 13 to 15 Million USD is the cost of production for PAF. You should never sell your product at cost because you also have to cover the General, Administrative and Selling Expenses Plus Profit. That means JFT should be sold at 20 to 25 Million USD a piece, depending upon whether it is Block 1 or 2.
Do you think all other manufacturers sell their product at cost ?

Even then JF17 will cost to any buyer 1/3 of the cost of Rafael or any other equivalent counterpart with the same comparable tech..where the buyers can buy 3 JF-17 with the price of one(for other than JF17)......If serbia has to spend 1Billion Euro they can get blockII JF17 60JF17 but if they buy rafael it will get at most 16 to 17 of them...so whoever will be buying JF17 will be a winner and big financial saviour.......

 

[Luftwaffe]

Even then JF17 will cost to any buyer 1/3 of the cost of Rafael or any other equivalent counterpart with the same comparable tech..where the buyers can buy 3 JF-17 with the price of one(for other than JF17)......If serbia has to spend 1Billion Euro they can get blockII JF17 60JF17 but if they buy rafael it will get at most 16 to 17 of them...so whoever will be buying JF17 will be a winner and big financial saviour.......

It could be a financial savior but Pakistan-China cannot deliver Block II in time for exports unless they want to grab this specific deal seriously, F-16 wins but if China offers a brief deal like FC-1s along with a Y-8 AEW&C as a complete package that would sound lucrative deal. Offer something comparable or efficient deal can blow away contenders. $550M 16 FC-1s along the Y-8 AEW&C could be an offer worth its weight.

Serbian Air Force do remember that an imposition of agreement was forced to not operate those Aircrafts for many years that could be a point China can manipulate.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the Serbs should have a particular interest in JF-17.....as they have good relations with Russia, and JF-17 (for now at least) is using Russian engines.

the Serbs have always been in Russian camp; it's difficult to imagine seeing them try to slip into western hands.


I would be happy to see Thunders in action serving air defence services worldwide.......it has already received much fanfare, despite it only being active in 1 Air Force at present.

 

[Mav3rick]

You are only pro-west in defence purchases, but you are pro-chinese in everything, including being strategic pals. How can anyone expect pakistan to bad mouth chinese products.

But J-10 is a defence related purchase, isn't it? So by virtue of your admittance that we indeed favour western weapons over Chinese, a J-10 is atleast on par with western weapons for our particular needs hence our interest in it, right?

Actually, there is something called as a radar warning receiver. You might want to look up on that. So there will be No "lock on and fire a BVR missile at a target before the target realizes the existence of hostile Jet" situation.

Yes, I am aware of that, but the target is not aware of a missile until the active locking is enabled, during passive lock the target is not illuminated to threat level.

Missiles are indeed maneuverable, but missiles are not driven by humans. They have to find their maneuvering targets, under all the jamming, and countermeasures, and correctly identify them. After successful identification, it has calculate an intercept path. The intercept path is different, each moment, if the target is changing heading and altitude wildly. All these calculations have to be done in real time, and then the output fed to the vanes to steer the missile. So the chances of hit are lower if the target is a highly agile one.

Well.....I kinda have to disagree again, I mean a missile is 2-3 times faster then the target and it's computer calculates a lot faster then humans can of all possibilities, their computers also process received data from sensors and analyse situation faster then any human can. I am not entirely convinced that a target can actually outrun or outmanoeuvre a missile today.

 

[Luftwaffe]

the Serbs have always been in Russian camp; it's difficult to imagine seeing them try to slip into western hands.

No, Serbian Government in particular is pro-west But opposition and common Serbs are still in harmony with Russia.

A strong pressure on Government could be favorable But then Russians would lead the contest followed by China.

 

[Mav3rick]

Well... Everyone here is talking about the price of the Jet only. Why is that? Do they not intend to fire anything from it?

An aircraft contract always includes armaments, spares, training and infrastructure, and these should not be forgotton.

My perception of Serbian Contract.

1. Total Budget : USD 1.3 billion.
2. Number of Aircraft to be procured : 12~16, i.e. a Squadron strength atleast (plus 2 trainers optional)
3. Role : Preferrably Multi-Role, Dedicated-Air-Superiority discouraged due to lack of Land/Marine Attack Role.
4. Armament : AAM (WVR & BVR), AGM (Anti-Runway, Anti-Tank, CruiseM), A2G-bombs (dumb and PGM), ASM (cruise/super-cruise).
5. Cost of Armament Acquisition :
5A. AAM_BVR x 100 ... atleast 6+ for each of 16 aircraft. Cost: ~60m for AIM120-C5+, ~80m for 120D, ~60m for Mica, ~130m for Meteor, ~40m for R77, ~30m for SD10
5B. AAM_WVR x 60 ... <10m from all sources.
5C. AGM+A2G : ~120m for American, ~160m for European, ~70m for Russian, ~50m for Chinese; all around package.
5D. ASM x 16 : ~50m for Harpoon(Standoff), ~70m for European (Exocet etc), ~40m Russian(Brahmos etc), ~25m Chinese(Y83 etc).
6. Recce+Targetting+Jamming Pods x 16 (In Total) : 120m American (AQ211,SNIPER,LANTIRN), 120m European (Domacles,Thales), 80m Russian, 40m Chinese.
7. Training & Infrastructure : Assume equal to be 1/10 of total Aircraft cost (plus minus).
8. Aircraft Spares : 1/4 of total aircraft cost (can be plus minus, but mostly plus).
9. Aircraft Itself : Rest of Budget.
10. Aircraft Cost inclusing points 7&8&9 : 0.10 + 0.25 + 1.00 = 1.35

Now if my Calculation Serves me
Formula: Points 1 to 6 add up, then deducted from 1.3 billion, then devided by 1.35 (to include spares+training+infrastructure), then further devided by number of planes
American : 1.3b - 370m = 930m / 1.35 = 688m / 12 = 57 million USD per plane
European : 1.3b - 420m = 880m / 1.35 = 651m / 12 = 54 million USD per plane
Russian : 1.3b - 240m = 1060m / 1.35 = 785m / 12 = 65 million USD per plane
Chinese : 1.3b - 160m = 1140m / 1.35 = 844m / 18 = 46 million USD per plane (18 planes instead of 12)

Note-1: AIM-120D and Meteor were not used in calculations.
Note-2: I know serbia is landlocked but it will still require Standoff missiles, which are mostly developed from Anti-Ship-Missiles.
Note-3: Anti-Radiation missile are not included in armament list.


Now you people figure it out which plane they can buy in 1.3 billion USD and which they cannot. If you ask me, Americans and Europeans are seriously OUT because they are too expencive, unless they get 2nd hand planes or get foreign AID. But i must admit that Americans provide the best technology, followed closely by the Europeans.

Besides an important thing to notice is that they required/wanted to buy two squadrons and are pressed by budget, because they don't want to borrow additional money. They downgraded requirement to one squadron i.e. 16, and 12 will be further downgradation.
Source: Serb Air Force Seeks New Fighter Jets | AVIATION WEEK

Now who can provide 32~36 in this budget, I wonder ...

Regards,
Sapper

That seems like a lot of work for no apparent reason. A new block-60 F-16 with spares, armaments, training and equipment will cost them US$80-100 million/piece. A similar deal for Block-II/Block-III JF-17's would cost them US$ 35-40million/piece which also means they can easily raise 2 squadrons (as per their desire) of a brand new jet that rivals F-16/Mig-29 (latest variants).

 

[Black Widow]

That seems like a lot of work for no apparent reason. A new block-60 F-16 with spares, armaments, training and equipment will cost them US$80-100 million/piece. A similar deal for Block-II/Block-III JF-17's would cost them US$ 35-40million/piece which also means they can easily raise 2 squadrons (as per their desire) of a brand new jet that rivals F-16/Mig-29 (latest variants).

Not required