Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[Paksanity]

Will Russia even sell SU-35s to you? Some pakistanis are talking about F-35s and SU-35s like they are able to acquire those jets if they want...

And why not? Will it be an intelligent buy for us is a different matter.

 

[Darth Vader]

@Oscar
People tend to forget one thing that it's a defence forum and people with military carriers or were attached to military should be only be allowed if you go to other proper defence forum majority members are ex mils. I
.But here we have keyboard warriors , fan boys and people with uncle aunty source of there knowledge.
If it was up to PDF members paf should have gone to Pluto , use UFO and wish list goes on and on
While they forget a 6 7 billion total defence budget can't just support 700000standing and 600000 reserved
Force while creating JVs for navy , air force , army
And in past when Pakistan did have modern tech of its time it was thanks to uncle Sam
Now it's totally up to Pakistani economy
People should use a bit of common sense how is Pakistani forces acquiring new systems
And continue to protect countries interest from minimum budget.

 

[New World]

Not purchasing the Gripen or the Rafale before India could make a move in the 2000s was a very stupid decision by the PAF. The only other western competitors were the Typhoon and the Teens. The Teens were American while the Typhoon has a suppressed development program and is exorbitantly expensive.

With the American supply line dead and with the possibility of Rafale and Gripen coming to India locking Sweden and France out of the Pak market means PAF has effectively cut itself off from the west. Now the only realistic choice for PAF from the west is Turkey's lego 5th gen which will come with problems of its own.

All of PAF's decisions have directly benefited India even though PAF had the advantage over India when it came to first choice. Even in the 80s, PAF had the money to go for 2 squadrons of M-2000 and the F-16, effectively blocking IAF's ability to buy the best jets of the time.

well. PAF is not alone in its stupidity, She got company of PN which reject Scorpion subs for india to get it and lost a decade to get subs..

 

[Śakra]

And why not? Will it be an intelligent buy for us is a different matter.

US won't allow F-35s to be sold to pakistan, especially with pakistan's increased relations with china.

Russia won't for the foreseeable future due to ties with India.

Only if some billions $ were lying idle around somewhere! We are having hard time replacing legacy fighters (thankfully our neighbour is equally good at screwing up).

Got to love that Victorian era bureaucracy. God forbid South Asia cut down on bureaucracy and became an Asian Tiger...

 

[Humble Analyst]

What are we going to do with 19 year old Junk??

Pakistan seeking 16 F-16's from Jordan
Pakistan in talks with Qatar for 12 Mirage 2000-5 which is 19 year old

we are replacing 30 year old plane with 19 year old one why cause it'll give PAF 10 years more until ultimate J-31 or TFX arrives

While our Opponent is seeking to buy F-35 Rafales PAK-FA F-18 F-16's Super Sukhoi...

That is why landa baazar works, you get what you can afford. We will be lucky to afford them or UAE may sell them to us after Yemen.

 

[Paksanity]

Russia won't for the foreseeable future due to ties with India.

Agree with US part. They won't for the time being. In future perhaps.

As for Russia, they will if paid in hard cash. Indians often overestimate their influence. Russia sold it to China ignoring India. Russians know full well India can not do without them either.

 

[Signalian]

Islamabad surprises India by ordering 4O Mirage 2000s from France, and there is promise of more military sales to come.

American Senator Larry Pressler could well have been day-trip-ping in Antarctica instead of Islamabad considering the ice-cold reception he was subjected to in Pakistan last month. But nobody, least of all Pressler, would have expected otherwise.

In the eyes of the Pakistan Government, he is Public Enemy Number One. It was his amendment in the US Senate in October 1990 that halted US arms supplies to Islamabad, causing panic in the country's military establishment and sending its long-term strategy into a tailspin.

The worst hit was the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The Pressler Amendment signified a major setback for its state-of-the-art, multi-role fighter aircraft, the F-16. Pakistan's air defence system revolves around the F-16s which are also force multipliers in their secondary role of low-level strike aircraft.

Till Pressler intervened, the PAF's strategic doctrine was based on an eventual complement of 150 F-16s, to form the core of their multi-role fighter force. As of now, they have three squadrons equipped with F-16s or a total of around 40 aircraft. Another 11 are ready for delivery by General Dynamics and 60 under manufacture. But suspension of US military aid to Islamabad has stalled supply.

For Pakistan, the sudden loss of additional F-16s, and spares and armaments for their existing squadrons, has been a devastating blow. Many F-16s are already grounded. Moreover, 12 of the 40 F-l6s are twin-seat trainers which can play an operational role but less effectively than the single-seat versions.

With US-Pakistan relations at rock bottom, the prospect of resuming arms supplies seems remote, at least in the near future. As one IAF officer says: "By 1991-end, they were up the creek without a paddle."

But celebrations in New Delhi's Vayu Bhavan proved short-lived. Last fortnight, Islamabad sprang a major surprise by getting the French Government to part with 40 Mirage 2000s, the advanced and multi-role fighters that India acquired in mid-1985. Pakistan's Mirage deal, pending financial clearance, was one Indian defence planners were convinced would not materialise.

In fact, the Mirage 2000 that Pakistan may get is more advanced than the version acquired by India. "The basic aircraft may be similar but Dassault (the makers) have added more advanced programmes to their avionic systems since 1985. It's now a smarter system," says an IAF officer involved in the original Indian purchase. More worrying for India is the delivery schedule for Pakistan that could start next month.

Dassault has 12 Mirage 2000s awaiting delivery from a deal with Jordan, which backed out during the Gulf War, unable to meet the payment schedule. Those aircraft can be diverted to Islamabad when the deal is finalised. The French Air Force also cut back on Mirage 2000 acquisitions in 1991 for budgetary reasons, and Dassault could route those aircraft to the PAF.

But the real kicker is the possibility that Pakistan already has 12 Mirage 2000s, secretly acquired through the Bank of Credit and Commerce (BCCI), founded by Pakistani businessman Agha Abedi.

Probing the bank's arms deals, Time magazine (September 2, 1991) reported: "Investigators looking into the deal say that Asif (Pakistan arms dealer Asif Ali) rerouted nearly two dozen Mirage 2000s to Pakistan originally brokered through BCCI to Peru."

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ing-4o-mirage-2000s-from-france/1/306146.html

enjoy the spice, i know the link date

 

[MastanKhan]

Islamabad surprises India by ordering 4O Mirage 2000s from France, and there is promise of more military sales to come.

American Senator Larry Pressler could well have been day-trip-ping in Antarctica instead of Islamabad considering the ice-cold reception he was subjected to in Pakistan last month. But nobody, least of all Pressler, would have expected otherwise.

In the eyes of the Pakistan Government, he is Public Enemy Number One. It was his amendment in the US Senate in October 1990 that halted US arms supplies to Islamabad, causing panic in the country's military establishment and sending its long-term strategy into a tailspin.

The worst hit was the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The Pressler Amendment signified a major setback for its state-of-the-art, multi-role fighter aircraft, the F-16. Pakistan's air defence system revolves around the F-16s which are also force multipliers in their secondary role of low-level strike aircraft.

Till Pressler intervened, the PAF's strategic doctrine was based on an eventual complement of 150 F-16s, to form the core of their multi-role fighter force. As of now, they have three squadrons equipped with F-16s or a total of around 40 aircraft. Another 11 are ready for delivery by General Dynamics and 60 under manufacture. But suspension of US military aid to Islamabad has stalled supply.

For Pakistan, the sudden loss of additional F-16s, and spares and armaments for their existing squadrons, has been a devastating blow. Many F-16s are already grounded. Moreover, 12 of the 40 F-l6s are twin-seat trainers which can play an operational role but less effectively than the single-seat versions.

With US-Pakistan relations at rock bottom, the prospect of resuming arms supplies seems remote, at least in the near future. As one IAF officer says: "By 1991-end, they were up the creek without a paddle."

But celebrations in New Delhi's Vayu Bhavan proved short-lived. Last fortnight, Islamabad sprang a major surprise by getting the French Government to part with 40 Mirage 2000s, the advanced and multi-role fighters that India acquired in mid-1985. Pakistan's Mirage deal, pending financial clearance, was one Indian defence planners were convinced would not materialise.

In fact, the Mirage 2000 that Pakistan may get is more advanced than the version acquired by India. "The basic aircraft may be similar but Dassault (the makers) have added more advanced programmes to their avionic systems since 1985. It's now a smarter system," says an IAF officer involved in the original Indian purchase. More worrying for India is the delivery schedule for Pakistan that could start next month.

Dassault has 12 Mirage 2000s awaiting delivery from a deal with Jordan, which backed out during the Gulf War, unable to meet the payment schedule. Those aircraft can be diverted to Islamabad when the deal is finalised. The French Air Force also cut back on Mirage 2000 acquisitions in 1991 for budgetary reasons, and Dassault could route those aircraft to the PAF.

But the real kicker is the possibility that Pakistan already has 12 Mirage 2000s, secretly acquired through the Bank of Credit and Commerce (BCCI), founded by Pakistani businessman Agha Abedi.

Probing the bank's arms deals, Time magazine (September 2, 1991) reported: "Investigators looking into the deal say that Asif (Pakistan arms dealer Asif Ali) rerouted nearly two dozen Mirage 2000s to Pakistan originally brokered through BCCI to Peru."

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ing-4o-mirage-2000s-from-france/1/306146.html

enjoy the spice, i know the link date

Hi,

By reading this above post---trhe readers can very easily determine who the real enemy of pakistan was----.

Specially the younger generation---see for your self---this supposedly too honest of an officer an Air Commodore was the true saboteur of this deal---sabotaged by our very own---.

" Mein Bara Sacha Hoon---Mein Bara Eemandar Hoon---". Who needs enemies when you have your own do that to you---those who you trusted your life and the security of the state----they deceive you like that---.

 

[ConcealCarry]

I totally agree with your views on cancellation of deal on bribery/corruption, as though after that cancellation the corrupt leaders didn't made any money? Irony is we chose the same corrupt Zardari again as President and all that Military brass saluted that corrupt to the core bastard who literally looted the country with both hands.

There is NO price ever to high to protect your life or honour.

Sir,

When you are in procurement---it is good to be honest---but you need to be a shyster as well---you have to have larceny in you as well.

The air commodore never looked at the over all scenario---what would 10 mil a pop do---so instead of 40 aircraft---there were 30 aircraft available.

We are now begging for 8 here---9 there---14 there----10 somewhere else---.

A similar thing happened with the submarine deal in the 90's---navy was going for the british subs---Benazir came and cancelled the deal and bought the french subs---she made money---we later found out that the british subs would hardly sail for 10 years and the french subs gave us almost twice as long a service---.

Honesty is for innocent people---when you are in position to buy weapons---honesty is not the only thing that you have to look at.

You have to be HONEST TO THE DEAL---meaning what you are buying is going to do what it was promised that it would do with out a compromise.

@araz ---it is next to impossible for you to understand that concept---because that is what I have been repeating for the last 10 years---and you have still been repeating your story for the similar time---.

It is about time that you started ' learning ' my man---. Maybe you need to find and older Yehudi / Jew and ask---what exorbitant prices the israelis paid for their weapons after the second world war---and who did they pay the bribes nd bakhshish to----.



Hi,

And my pakistani brethren---still come out with the HONESTY approach---or the 10 million bribe a piece---thoughtless little children.

What does honesty or outrageous price count in a POTENT weapons deal---nothing ---- zilch --- nada.

What price would Qaddaffi had paid for 10 pakistani nucs----10 bil---20 bil---50 bil.

 

[Arsalan]

We have to increase the F-16 blk 52 to what was initially ordered, unfortunately the cost of getting new aircraft is not feasible. USA is going to provide these aircraft but is considering how to milk the Indians. They are going to play with Pakistan by offering some new and some old aircraft and get them MLUd. This would make way for the Indians to be ordering large numbers, most probably ending with F-35's. This years Red Flag & Green Flag would showing the potential of the F-35's. The Israeli also getting their F-35 by next year would also play a significant role with Indian orders.

The French are known for selling their equipment to both sides of the conflict...Pakistan has been dealing with the French and know that they would deliver even when sanctions were imposed.

The french language is a blessing as it provides all sorts of loopholes to play both sides...

I wont count the new F16 out just yet. They may come at some point of time and till then the F16 MLU get the job done just fine, better then the proposed Mirages. Again, i urge you that when we talk down about the F16 MLU and US as supplier, we cannot forget the alternative we are talking about.

As for the French, they are notorious for dealing with both sides in a conflict. The did that we the Mirages (IAF and PAF) they did that with submarines (Agosta and Scorpean) and given the right amount they may be willing to do that again now. However there are SO many hurdles in achieving that. Will they? CAN they? should we? Other option? Potential and capability? Our strength? All this explained in detail in the previous few pages.
F16 on the other hand is a pretty straight forward procurement (relatively) and with our love affair with F16 in mind i do not see PAF making any move for the Mirages.

The previous dealings with France were marred with corruption and kick backs if you remember.

Will Russia even sell SU-35s to you? Some pakistanis are talking about F-35s and SU-35s like they are able to acquire those jets if they want...

Would you have thought US would sell you all that they offer you right now some 8 10 years back?
This is all politics dear and there are no absolutes!!

US won't allow F-35s to be sold to pakistan, especially with pakistan's increased relations with china.

Russia won't for the foreseeable future due to ties with India.

Politics!! Again!
Things can change before one realize what is happening. Have you been following what happened in Turkey-Russia-Israel/Palestine game? How the relations and attitude changed in matter of months. One may try to predict the future but as i said, you cant be certain about it in geopolitics and we are witnessing great shift in alliances so i would suggest against betting these days.

 

[Malik Alashter]

Imagine Pakistan with 60-100 M2k 5 or 9 with it's ability to carry missions against land based and air based targets!!!

I'd think it will be a challenging air force!!.

By the way M2K isn't that behind of rafale yes rafale more advanced but the M2K still formidable fighter certainly!!!.

I wish Iraq have some strategist who go for that amount of the M2K from France as a used one and from some other countries these fighters will have another 10-15 years of service even after that they will be a great bomb truck with great ability for precision strikes.

 

[barbarosa]

If Qatar govt give these fighters in gift then well come, If not then no need.

 

[Super Falcon]

Hi,

I will repeat what my JEW BOSS asked me 30 + years ago----" will you bet your life on it "---. I had fixed a clip that came off from a seat belt anchor----. I thought for a moment and answered " no "---he said then replace it---don't worry about the price of the part---because the customers life depends on it---and my business's liability as well.

So---in that context----I ask that question---

If the mothers of these HONEST air force officers were dying of cancer---what price would they pay for that medicine---.

Or if a baby daughter was dying of sickness---what price would they pay for the medicine.

I remember my father---he would have sold everything off to find a cure for the disability of my older sister who passed away in her teens.

Those people who give these weak answers of price and kick backs---have not been in a real time life and death situation---where you had to sell yourself and your soul to the seller and pay outrageous prices---.

Maybe---some need to visit the farmers on interior Sindh---who had paid 2 to 3 times the going rate of the AK47 to protect themselves from the highway robbers----in the 80's and 90's.




Hi,

The chinese subs that pakistan is buying ar 8 subs for 5 billion---possibly including a complete package---.


And again my question to you is---like to every one else---. You have funds---your mother or little daughter has cancer---only the French has the cure and they are asking an exorbitant price for it----and the black marketeer is also asking for his take.

Please tell me with all honesty that you will save the money and let your mother or daughter go the way they are going---untreated.

What a answer I fully agree with you most people on forum has less brains and PAF too they tend to count prices of maintenance etc but they forget these are not machines for your daily joy rides these are to make you stay alive in war

Just fantastic reply in defence you must not compromise on equipment

Russia has changed its policy to Pakistan due to Indian policies crashing against Russia interest most of you don't understand

If you take Russia Pakistan relations after bhutto no deals happen no visits from govt leaders for 3 decades suddenly army airforce chiefs visits nawaz visit defence minister visit shows Russia has opened doors for Pakistan

It's upon us how we deal with them to get SU 35 if we deal good with Russian they will sell anything

If Russia can offer SU 35 to South Korea who is US ally Why don't Pakistan

 

[nadeemkhan110]

Imagine Pakistan with 60-100 M2k 5 or 9 with it's ability to carry missions against land based and air based targets!!!

I'd think it will be a challenging air force!!.

By the way M2K isn't that behind of rafale yes rafale more advanced but the M2K still formidable fighter certainly!!!.

I wish Iraq have some strategist who go for that amount of the M2K from France as a used one and from some other countries these fighters will have another 10-15 years of service even after that they will be a great bomb truck with great ability for precision strikes.

M2K is not a good dog fighter and It is just a bomber and only carry Weight Max: 17000 kg after 10 years you will throw These Jet.
and again expire issue

If Qatar govt give these fighters in gift then well come, If not then no need.

YES I agree we can't waste money we don't need them for Taliban there is no Taliban controlled area in our country we need Jets for our birth enemies We know our enemies have third class pilots but they have heavy weight Jets.

 

[MastanKhan]

M2K is not a good dog fighter and It is just a bomber and only carry Weight Max: 17000 kg after 10 years you will throw These Jet.
and again expire issue

YES I agree we can't waste money we don't need them for Taliban there is no Taliban controlled area in our country we need Jets for our birth enemies We know our enemies have third class pilots but they have heavy weight Jets.

Hi,

If your near and dear one is suffering from ailment now---according to you---you might wait for a few years to start the treatment---.

Is that how I should understand your comments.