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Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

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We are not looking to buy in hundreds either a couple of Squadrons will do just fine and those are not that difficult to procure. Also please when you mention the US presidents and there mood swings and congress hurdles, do not forget that on other side we are taking about dealing with French. YES THE FRENCH!! Do you think they will be any better? Specially with all those contracts with IAF up and running? I am sure that this one point alone will be enough to keep PAF away from any such adventure. All said, the F16 remain the most sensible and realistic route forward along with those JF17 of course!
We have to increase the F-16 blk 52 to what was initially ordered, unfortunately the cost of getting new aircraft is not feasible. USA is going to provide these aircraft but is considering how to milk the Indians. They are going to play with Pakistan by offering some new and some old aircraft and get them MLUd. This would make way for the Indians to be ordering large numbers, most probably ending with F-35's. This years Red Flag & Green Flag would showing the potential of the F-35's. The Israeli also getting their F-35 by next year would also play a significant role with Indian orders.

The French are known for selling their equipment to both sides of the conflict...Pakistan has been dealing with the French and know that they would deliver even when sanctions were imposed.

The french language is a blessing as it provides all sorts of loopholes to play both sides...
 
French weapons are massivelty expensive

most people on this forum are not even aware just how expensive

one mica BVR missle is $1.5 MILLION each compared to the USA amraam C5 at $700k

One single F35 lightening costs $125m each and F16/52 @ $70m each

in contrast Rafale costs $140m each

One upgrade of a Mirage2000-5 from baseline mirage2000 costs $40m each.

One Scorpene submarine over $500m each compared to a chinease subs at under $100m each.

French weapons are superb in many cases the best in the world ...........BUT they cost a fortune
 
Not at the amount they were charging us. Additionally, our usual 10% was there to make a buck off the deal.

There is a lot of kickback involved with the French in many deals but in this case certain honest PAF officers intervened to stop the deal at that price.

Hi,

I will repeat what my JEW BOSS asked me 30 + years ago----" will you bet your life on it "---. I had fixed a clip that came off from a seat belt anchor----. I thought for a moment and answered " no "---he said then replace it---don't worry about the price of the part---because the customers life depends on it---and my business's liability as well.

So---in that context----I ask that question---

If the mothers of these HONEST air force officers were dying of cancer---what price would they pay for that medicine---.

Or if a baby daughter was dying of sickness---what price would they pay for the medicine.

I remember my father---he would have sold everything off to find a cure for the disability of my older sister who passed away in her teens.

Those people who give these weak answers of price and kick backs---have not been in a real time life and death situation---where you had to sell yourself and your soul to the seller and pay outrageous prices---.

Maybe---some need to visit the farmers on interior Sindh---who had paid 2 to 3 times the going rate of the AK47 to protect themselves from the highway robbers----in the 80's and 90's.

French weapons are massivelty expensive

most people on this forum are not even aware just how expensive

one mica BVR missle is $1.5 MILLION each compared to the USA amraam C5 at $700k

One single F35 lightening costs $125m each and F16/52 @ $70m each

in contrast Rafale costs $140m each

One upgrade of a Mirage2000-5 from baseline mirage2000 costs $40m each.

One Scorpene submarine over $500m each compared to a chinease subs at under $100m each.

French weapons are superb in many cases the best in the world ...........BUT they cost a fortune


Hi,

The chinese subs that pakistan is buying ar 8 subs for 5 billion---possibly including a complete package---.


And again my question to you is---like to every one else---. You have funds---your mother or little daughter has cancer---only the French has the cure and they are asking an exorbitant price for it----and the black marketeer is also asking for his take.

Please tell me with all honesty that you will save the money and let your mother or daughter go the way they are going---untreated.
 
Hi,

I will repeat what my JEW BOSS asked me 30 + years ago----" will you bet your life on it "---. I had fixed a clip that came off from a seat belt anchor----. I thought for a moment and answered " no "---he said then replace it---don't worry about the price of the part---because the customers life depends on it---and my business's liability as well.

So---in that context----I ask that question---

If the mothers of these HONEST air force officers were dying of cancer---what price would they pay for that medicine---.

Or if a baby daughter was dying of sickness---what price would they pay for the medicine.

I remember my father---he would have sold everything off to find a cure for the disability of my older sister who passed away in her teens.

Those people who give these weak answers of price and kick backs---have not been in a real time life and death situation---where you had to sell yourself and your soul to the seller and pay outrageous prices---.

Maybe---some need to visit the farmers on interior Sindh---who had paid 2 to 3 times the going rate of the AK47 to protect themselves from the highway robbers----in the 80's and 90's.




Hi,

The chinese subs that pakistan is buying ar 8 subs for 5 billion---possibly including a complete package---.


And again my question to you is---like to every one else---. You have funds---your mother or little daughter has cancer---only the French has the cure and they are asking an exorbitant price for it----and the black marketeer is also asking for his take.

Please tell me with all honesty that you will save the money and let your mother or daughter go the way they are going---untreated.

The cancer is in the intentions of the Politicians...You know in the middle of Arb-e-azab Ishaq Dar said we cannot finance it any more at that time Raheel Shareef made him do it. My friend politicians try their best to stop the funds Army is getting..if somehow possible they will not even give half of it. I agree with you on many points but no1 is interested in securing boundry line of our country...from small civilian to big politicians all want to settle in Dubai or UK..i hope you get what i mean to say..
 
I think that's an inaccurate assumption. I think the PAF wants to baseline their fighter fleet at 4h Gen tech level. They have to as they face a huge barrage of Indian aircraft, all of which are BVR capable. So this is a good strategy. Once you set a 4th gen baseline, all you then need is higher power / range radars and more modern missiles as they come in. Very affordable solution.
sir, PAF planners are ********. they don;t have any backup or strategic plans '

this same aircraft was offered in 1983 with local production and they reject it by saying that 2 decade old Mirage 5 gives same performance as M2K gives and they buy mirage 5 second hand from all around the world and now after 33 years they are interested in buying same aircraft which they reject 33 years ago..

in 2004 they reject Rafale by saying that this plane is too advance to buy(who buys defence equipmnt just to fullfill the current need?) and after a decade they are thinking to how to counter rafale..

in 2005 they again chose F-16(only 18) by knowing that the just 6 years ago there were no spares to support f-16 during kargil and they fly f-16 only when there was an indicator that IAF may attack on international borders..

there are only 12 M2k right now for sale. UAE still has not finalize rafale deal and even they finalize deal of rafale tomorrow, the delivery will be take more 5-6 years to reach to the UAE and there is not any confirmation that UAE will give its all aircraft to PAF..

Here is the scenario..
if PAF will buy 12 M2k from Qatar and these 12 jets will costs almost $1bln to satup infrastructure, training and weapons..
at the end they will say that they don;t have any money to buy 4.5 gen jet before moving to 5 gen and 4.5 gen jets plan will be scraped.
 
The cancer is in the intentions of the Politicians...You know in the middle of Arb-e-azab Ishaq Dar said we cannot finance it any more at that time Raheel Shareef made him do it...

How long will the nation of Pakistan totally ignore, forget and bypass their military leaders' screw ups? The civilians don't plan, develop military strategy, pick weapon systems, etc. They just sign the paper and expect the military experts to have vetted out everything and trust that the military leaders are looking at future needs proactively.

If there is anything good in Pakistan, its credited to the military because a General stood at that place and smoked a Cigar (or farted even). But if something wrong happens and actual generals are found to have done criminal activity.....they are ignored, the issues are bypassed and the men in uniform become above the law.

sir, PAF planners are ********. they don;t have any backup or strategic plans '

this same aircraft was offered in 1983 with local production and they reject it by saying that 2 decade old Mirage 5 gives same performance as M2K gives and they buy mirage 5 second hand from all around the world and now after 33 years they are interested in buying same aircraft which they reject 33 years ago..

in 2004 they reject Rafale by saying that this plane is too advance to buy(who buys defence equipmnt just to fullfill the current need?) and after a decade they are thinking to how to counter rafale..

in 2005 they again chose F-16(only 18) by knowing that the just 6 years ago there were no spares to support f-16 during kargil and they fly f-16 only when there was an indicator that IAF may attack on international borders..

there are only 12 M2k right now for sale. UAE still has not finalize rafale deal and even they finalize deal of rafale tomorrow, the delivery will be take more 5-6 years to reach to the UAE and there is not any confirmation that UAE will give its all aircraft to PAF..

Here is the scenario..
if PAF will buy 12 M2k from Qatar and these 12 jets will costs almost $1bln to satup infrastructure, training and weapons..
at the end they will say that they don;t have any money to buy 4.5 gen jet before moving to 5 gen and 4.5 gen jets plan will be scraped.

I've seen similar posts and I agree. Specially, in the PAF, the bad planning spanning many decades has been visible like the day light.

Rejecting Rafale was the craziest thing ever. Not buying F-16's block 52 in numbers (and immediately even if you had to take a loan from the KSA) was another example of stupidity. But the spares are no longer an issue. The PAF now maintains 5 years worth of spares for the F-16's. So plenty of lifeline there in case of any future sanctions (I doubt there would be any).

On M2K, I wouldn't buy 12. It makes sense ONLY if the minimal number is 24. For maintenance, you can re-configure the Mirage rebuild factory. That's not that complicated. You'd just have to buy Software related equipment to support M2k-5 and 9 platforms. Interesting thing is that the same machinery is used to support the Rafale so the avionics and tech in M2K-5 and 9 is very close to Rafale (like how the Chinese have J-10B which uses smaller hardware and software systems from their J-31).
 
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Hi,

What very few are realizing---and what I have been saying here for the last 10 years---is that the Paf has been digging itself into a hole----it has dug so deep that it can bury the Paf--and the nation pakistan along with it.

You never ever stop the procurement of a major major weapons system just on the complaints of bribery / bakhshish---.

The only time you stop is due to it being an inferior item---.

Indeed the Rafale rejection was the worst most decision by the Paf---. The Rafale deal would have secured the JF17 EW suite from Thales.

The tragedy over here is that there was one idiot after another---one bigger fool after another---as the Air Chief Marshall of pakistan air force---.

And this one they have now---is an absolute moron when it comes to strategy and tactics----.

He wants to portray himself to be the ACM Nur Khan of the 60's---oh well.
 
Not at the amount they were charging us. Additionally, our usual 10% was there to make a buck off the deal.

There is a lot of kickback involved with the French in many deals but in this case certain honest PAF officers intervened to stop the deal at that price.
PAF should have had them even if it was exactly like Merchant of Venice...Pound of Flesh

There are some good lawyers who could have contested and saved the day later...After all French language is of Love...
 
Hi,

I will repeat what my JEW BOSS asked me 30 + years ago----" will you bet your life on it "---. I had fixed a clip that came off from a seat belt anchor----. I thought for a moment and answered " no "---he said then replace it---don't worry about the price of the part---because the customers life depends on it---and my business's liability as well.

So---in that context----I ask that question---

If the mothers of these HONEST air force officers were dying of cancer---what price would they pay for that medicine---.

Or if a baby daughter was dying of sickness---what price would they pay for the medicine.

I remember my father---he would have sold everything off to find a cure for the disability of my older sister who passed away in her teens.

Those people who give these weak answers of price and kick backs---have not been in a real time life and death situation---where you had to sell yourself and your soul to the seller and pay outrageous prices---.

Maybe---some need to visit the farmers on interior Sindh---who had paid 2 to 3 times the going rate of the AK47 to protect themselves from the highway robbers----in the 80's and 90's.




Hi,

The chinese subs that pakistan is buying ar 8 subs for 5 billion---possibly including a complete package---.


And again my question to you is---like to every one else---. You have funds---your mother or little daughter has cancer---only the French has the cure and they are asking an exorbitant price for it----and the black marketeer is also asking for his take.

Please tell me with all honesty that you will save the money and let your mother or daughter go the way they are going---untreated.

Very well said. People in India also complain about price of jets, but IAF shows them the finger and buys them anyway.

Look at the Americans bickering over the price of the F-22. A lot of people criticized the price and are now regretting it after realizing 187 was not enough. They may have to pay a lot more just to start production again or get stuck with a less than optimum fleet. Otoh, the estimated price of the FGFA and AMCA is well over $200M and the IAF will show the finger to naysayers and buy them anyway. All the criticism on Rafale's price has fallen on deaf ears as well. You can't put a price on national security.
 
I have had a personal conversation with the Air Commodore who was directly responsible for the M2K sale as defence secretary to Benazir. This matter had nothing to do with personality clash but with trying to stop a sleeze bag from sccoping off 10 million per plane.This was why when the price was not revised Benazir threw the file out of the window on to the street/whatever and told the gent to not return till he had made the changes. The gent was relieved of his post the same afternoon. Interestingly the same deal was presented to the french duly signed 90 days later after the Benazir Government dismissal but was refused on grounds that the time period for signing the deal had elapsed!! So was Sarkozy involved as well?//
The number of 190 also needs to be qualified. If you look at the numbers about 30-40 planes have already been retired if not more. I dont think we will ever be able to retire all 2190 and replace them . I suspect the number will hover around 140-150. However the capability boost would still be tremendous.
Your assumption of the french only wanting money will only hold true if you disregard the Indo Rafale deal and the possible failure if the French paly ball with PAF. Therefore they have a cogent reason for sticking to their guns. This remains the main hurdle along with the cost of maintianing the M2ks.
F16s are not barred to us just the fact that the current Congress does not want us to utilize the US funds for it. They have not said they will not allow us to have EDAs. To me it seems the most tangible and economical reason for going down the route.
A

Sir,

When you are in procurement---it is good to be honest---but you need to be a shyster as well---you have to have larceny in you as well.

The air commodore never looked at the over all scenario---what would 10 mil a pop do---so instead of 40 aircraft---there were 30 aircraft available.

We are now begging for 8 here---9 there---14 there----10 somewhere else---.

A similar thing happened with the submarine deal in the 90's---navy was going for the british subs---Benazir came and cancelled the deal and bought the french subs---she made money---we later found out that the british subs would hardly sail for 10 years and the french subs gave us almost twice as long a service---.

Honesty is for innocent people---when you are in position to buy weapons---honesty is not the only thing that you have to look at.

You have to be HONEST TO THE DEAL---meaning what you are buying is going to do what it was promised that it would do with out a compromise.

@araz ---it is next to impossible for you to understand that concept---because that is what I have been repeating for the last 10 years---and you have still been repeating your story for the similar time---.

It is about time that you started ' learning ' my man---. Maybe you need to find and older Yehudi / Jew and ask---what exorbitant prices the israelis paid for their weapons after the second world war---and who did they pay the bribes nd bakhshish to----.

Very well said. People in India also complain about price of jets, but IAF shows them the finger and buys them anyway.

Look at the Americans bickering over the price of the F-22. A lot of people criticized the price and are now regretting it after realizing 187 was not enough. They may have to pay a lot more just to start production again or get stuck with a less than optimum fleet. Otoh, the estimated price of the FGFA and AMCA is well over $200M and the IAF will show the finger to naysayers and buy them anyway. All the criticism on Rafale's price has fallen on deaf ears as well. You can't put a price on national security.

Hi,

And my pakistani brethren---still come out with the HONESTY approach---or the 10 million bribe a piece---thoughtless little children.

What does honesty or outrageous price count in a POTENT weapons deal---nothing ---- zilch --- nada.

What price would Qaddaffi had paid for 10 pakistani nucs----10 bil---20 bil---50 bil.
 
Just Imagine if 90 odd Mirage 3 and 5 are replaced with 68 UAE Mirages and 12 Qartri Mirages. how much big boost will it give to the capabilities of PAF over the night..
Don't count on 68 UAE Mirage 2k-9s, may be 2 squadrons at best, since they want to sell Iraq around 9, but there ae complication for where the UAE wants them to be based.. Egypt also needs to replace a lot of old aircrafts and might be a candidate for the M2k-9, they won't have any problems with that, since they already operate the M2K.. So Pakistan if it pushes hard for it it might get a full sq of M2K-9, and if very very lucky, 3 sqs , that is if Egypt don't want/need it..
 
Hi,

And my pakistani brethren---still come out with the HONESTY approach---or the 10 million bribe a piece---thoughtless little children.

What does honesty or outrageous price count in a POTENT weapons deal---nothing ---- zilch --- nada.

What price would Qaddaffi had paid for 10 pakistani nucs----10 bil---20 bil---50 bil.

Not purchasing the Gripen or the Rafale before India could make a move in the 2000s was a very stupid decision by the PAF. The only other western competitors were the Typhoon and the Teens. The Teens were American while the Typhoon has a suppressed development program and is exorbitantly expensive.

With the American supply line dead and with the possibility of Rafale and Gripen coming to India locking Sweden and France out of the Pak market means PAF has effectively cut itself off from the west. Now the only realistic choice for PAF from the west is Turkey's lego 5th gen which will come with problems of its own.

All of PAF's decisions have directly benefited India even though PAF had the advantage over India when it came to first choice. Even in the 80s, PAF had the money to go for 2 squadrons of M-2000 and the F-16, effectively blocking IAF's ability to buy the best jets of the time.
 
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Comparison

mirage2000_r.jpg


Name: Mirage 2000C

Constructor:
Dassault - Breguet
Armament: 2 cannon 30 mm
6300 kg max payload
Length: 14m36
Max Speed: 2,350 km/h
Ceiling: 17060 m
height: 5m20
Weight Max: 17000 kg
Range: 3335 km

Span: 9m13
Crew: 1/2 Engines:1



Name: SU-35 Super Flanker

Constructor:Sukhoi
Armament:1 cannon 30 mm
8200 kg max payload
Length: 21m96
Max Speed: 2,500 km/h
Ceiling: 18000 m
height: 6m84
Weight Max: 34000 kg
Range: 4100 km

Span: 15m16
Crew: 1 Engines: 2

Will Russia even sell SU-35s to you? Some pakistanis are talking about F-35s and SU-35s like they are able to acquire those jets if they want...
 
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