Parliament cannot legislate against constitution, Islam: CJ

[batmannow]

ok, but who is?

sc is the interpreter but tell me something..

The conflicting amendments are to protect against Legislature overreach but cant they themselves be not amended? Wouldnt it mean laws made by people back in those days cannot be changed forever?

I do not care, seems you care much... good for us!

and how will the CJ decide on the demand of people, another voting in the entire Pakistan perhaps, do you know you sound very childish?

Well if that's the case, that means pakistan don't need parliment, don't need prime minster & don't need president, to run the country , everything could be done with sumo-moto orders of CJ?
That's a very poor argument here, a lot of truns & twists of the words, a lot display of good english skills but in the end , every one is backing our highest politisized CJ , in the hopes that he is going to bring this govt. Down with his sumo-moto magic, I guss its wrong,& surly his actions in present & in future will be written wrong?
CJ is trying hard to replace a govt which is selected by peoples of pakistan , he has no right to interfare in the affairs of this govt, within the given framework of Demm-crazy!
His fear of investigations against son, which can even bring his whole family in a police station , is driving him crazy its the hidden rock in his heart , for which he is issueing these kind of orders to stop this govt functioning.
His supporters are 2 different groups of political guru,s !
Imran khan & nawaz sharif, both of them were out cast By croupted bt heavly voted PPP & its allies.
After the in house selction of the new prime minster of pakistan, Both IMran & Nawaz just found their political future in backing every action of our CJ,s confrontional path with the govt, both Imran & nawaz belive that only way to kicking out this govt , strats from backing of Cj.
Non of them are innocent, none of them are intersted in the interpatation of the constitution, or implementation of the constitution, its just LIONS for LAMBs.

 

[SamantK]

Well if that's the case, that means pakistan don't need parliment, don't need prime minster & don't need president, to run the country , everything could be done with sumo-moto orders of CJ?
That's a very poor argument here, a lot of truns & twists of the words, a lot display of good english skills but in the end , every one is backing our highest politisized CJ , in the hopes that he is going to bring this govt. Down with his sumo-moto magic, I guss its wrong,& surly his actions in present & in future will be written wrong?
CJ is trying hard to replace a govt which is selected by peoples of pakistan , he has no right to interfare in the affairs of this govt, within the given framework of Demm-crazy!
His fear of investigations against son, which can even bring his whole family in a police station , is driving him crazy its the hidden rock in his heart , for which he is issueing these kind of orders to stop this govt functioning.
His supporters are 2 different groups of political guru,s !
Imran khan & nawaz sharif, both of them were out cast By croupted bt heavly voted PPP & its allies.
After the in house selction of the new prime minster of pakistan, Both IMran & Nawaz just found their political future in backing every action of our CJ,s confrontional path with the govt, both Imran & nawaz belive that only way to kicking out this govt , strats from backing of Cj.
Non of them are innocent, none of them are intersted in the interpatation of the constitution, or implementation of the constitution, its just LIONS for LAMBs.

Hey I do not know what made you think that I meant

sumo-moto orders of CJ?

 

[zip]

It is like police(cj) awarding sentence to a thief rather than court (public)

 

[bc040400065]

so its clear now in a vigrious attempt of despiration Cj is going crazy!
ppp zardari, & its allies are croupt criminals , or whatever but govrnence is thier right because of thier numbers in parliment, against those who arent sitting in the parliment or dont have majority in the parliment!
making new laws, is the work of national assembly & senete, & cj doesnt have any right, to stop them , or dictate them!
lets see how far CJ ,& this govt can go!
both of them are wrong, & no one is right! cause its democrazy?

If you people have no knowledge about constitution of pakistan then why you all are crying and posting these kinds of crap. It is the constitution of pakistan that gave the right of review to the supreme Court, It is the Constitutions of pakistan, that not even parliament is allowed to change the basic structure and fundamental laws and islamic essense of the constitution. for changing the basic structure you will need to elect a new lagislative assembly so that they can over throw the current constitution. but under current system parliament is not the supreme authority but Constitution is and as per this constitution parliament cannot ammend the basics structure. So what CJ is saying is what is written in the constitution.

 

[Hyperion]

Not that simple dude!

If you people have no knowledge about constitution of pakistan then why you all are crying and posting these kinds of crap. It is the constitution of pakistan that gave the right of review to the supreme Court, It is the Constitutions of pakistan, that not even parliament is allowed to change the basic structure and fundamental laws and islamic essense of the constitution. for changing the basic structure you will need to elect a new lagislative assembly so that they can over throw the current constitution. but under current system parliament is not the supreme authority but Constitution is and as per this constitution parliament cannot ammend the basics structure. So what CJ is saying is what is written in the constitution.

 

[bc040400065]

Constitution can be amended in any way dude.. please get you facts straight, it only needs certain conditions which are not very easy to achieve..

Pakistani constitution cannot and i repeat cannot be ammended in any way or it cannot be changed to any new direction by any parliament or any authority on this planet earth. Do i make myself clear enough or any thing more you want to know about pakistab's consititution??

Wrong again, the parliament is cause it is the representative of the people...

It coukd but that would require a majority which is not possible, how do you expect people will vote for those @ssholes knowing this?

Hahahahahah

In pakistan's case only having the required majority is not enough, even if parliament passes and president signs it, under our law SC has the authority to declare it null and void if it is against the basics of costitution or against the fundamentals of islam.
please stop posting if you have no knowledge about the subject.

 

[rubyjackass]

First of all lets make this clear: I'm no supporter of Zardari & Co.

What I am saying is that 'elected people' are the supreme authority in making legislature or making amendments to it, now, if in case the parliament is run by bunch of thugs, then be it. Wasn't it the electorate that sent these losers to run the parliament in the first place?

You can not have it both ways, want democracy? Have it all. With all the bitter taste that it accompanies.

What has supreme court or any court to do - when the parliament wants to amend some law? Why not elect CJ from hereon-afterwards? Let's have elections and elect the courts of Pakistan instead of parlimentarians?

He did not say anything wrong. Even in the US courts strike down legislation as unconstitutional. Parliament cannot make laws in violation of Constitution. They have to first amend the constitution to make it consistent. Courts' responsibility is to interpret the constitution as it exists.

 

[Hyperion]

Pakistani constitution cannot and i repeat cannot be ammended in any way or it cannot be changed to any new direction by any parliament or any authority on this planet earth. Do i make myself clear enough or any thing more you want to know about pakistab's constitution??
In pakistan's case only having the required majority is not enough, even if parliament passes and president signs it, under our law SC has the authority to declare it null and void if it is against the basics of costitution or against the fundamentals of islam.
please stop posting if you have no knowledge about the subject.

Hey, did you just hang your black coat? Where did you pass the bar? Two years of school and having such grandiose visions

They have to first change the constitution to make it consistent.

Yes the guy will never get that. That is one more problem our nation will have to deal with for the foreseeable future!
P.S. I'm making the fonts bigger to get it through his thick skull.

 

[SamantK]

Pakistani constitution cannot and i repeat cannot be ammended in any way or it cannot be changed to any new direction by any parliament or any authority on this planet earth. Do i make myself clear enough or any thing more you want to know about pakistab's consititution??

Your sentence makes it pretty clear but I do not see any material backing your claim, read Developereo post he says it is possible... which is also the norm the world over, if you disagree please present evidence, not sentences which can be written by any layman..

He did not say anything wrong. Even in the US courts strike down legislation as unconstitutional. Parliament cannot make laws in violation of Constitution. They have to first amend the constitution to make it consistent. Courts' responsibility is to interpret the constitution as it exists.

You sum it up correctly when you say the bolded part, but if you forget the contention of the poster he says the basics of constitution cannot be changed..

 

[Awesome]

'Constituent Assembly'? Joking? May be in late 40's/early 50's there was a need but the Parliament of Pakistan, at least since 1973, are the legal so-called 'Constituent Assembly'.

Thats like saying for 5 years we are electing our King and ruler. If Parliament decides tomorrow to kill 10 people a day to counter rising population would it be allowed? They pass it into a law and do all the formalities? I voted for them to come to power and fix our electricity problem, complete transportation projects and conclude that J-10 deal with China, but hey they decided to kill 10 people a day?

How do you set up a framework for what they can and cannot do? The constitution.

Now you are saying they can change the constitution too? Sure they can but they need to be elected for that purpose. Constituent assembly concept is still alive today.

When Tunisia wanted to reshape its constitution it set up a constituent assembly. You have to declare what is this sweeping change you are about to do. Then no Supreme Court will but in as the people have given them that right.

But... let's cut the crap and remove the cobwebs: A bunch of people here are so supportive of the, what I believe to be, judicial-overreach--is because the target is eventually Zardari. And it does not matter than the Constitution, whether fairly or not, gives Zardari the immunity. The 3-member neurotic bench of judges are being exposed for their political and ideological bias as we speak. And, no, the Hasba Bill was an extreme example. There were no takers for that even then. I stand by my statements that the judiciary has over-reached, is ideologically motivated, and its actions are detrimental to Pakistan's interests.

Why is Hasba bill an extreme example? It was passed by the entire provincial assembly and let me correct you this not about sticking it to Zardari, its about finally implementing rule of law. If the top man can be punished then anyone can. Choudhrahat concept deep rooted in Pakistan where there is one law for the common man and another for the feudal lord.

I am still not going to stoop to the level of accusing these judges of 'corruption'. I have no proof of that. But, given that Justice (and then President!!!) Tarar himself was involved in corruption to unseat the then CJP anything is possible.

Funny thing is no one has actual proof. Woh raaton ko falanay se milta tha jo falanay ka dost tha and usne falanay din usse hass hass ke baat ki thi. Dekho corruption!

This is just gossip and for the benefit of those that are knee deep in corruption so obviously chor toh police ko gandha hi karega?

 

[Developereo]

That is what I was trying to get a clear picture of, since you have said that the constitution can be changed however lengthy and complex it is. It re-affirms my conviction that SC can only rule against which is conflicting with the constitution but can never dictate if the consistution should be changed or not, which is the sole prerogative of the legislature.

Agreed.

that is true but then again, without proper intelligent debate we cannot go forward. We cannot ignore such important decisions by the Chief Justice because they will have far reaching effects not just now but in the future too..

You can not pick and choose which SC decisions to support and which ones to contest. It's an all-or-nothing system. That's the way it works around the world.

 

[Pakistanisage]

The whole idea behind having three bodies of Government i.e. Executive, Legislature and Judiciary is to create Checks and Balances so that no one element of govt. can become dictatorial. Supreme Court does not make laws but it is assigned the duty of ensuring that the laws made by legislature are constitutional in nature.

The idea of having a Constitution is to ensure that some basic concepts must be adhered to. Even though this Constitution can be Amended or Modified with 75% or 80% majority, this should not be done lightly and only in extreme condition after a major debate. The US has only 27 Amendments to Constitution in last 250 years ( first 10 were made concurently ).

The chief Justice is not only authorized, he is actually responsible to ensure the contitutionality of laws legislated by the Parliament. Anyone who has problem with this concept is not familiar with the concept of Democracy.

 

[rubyjackass]

Hi samant and Hyperion,
what I am saying is simply that the CJ has made correct statements. See my comments about the quotes.

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s top judge has said that the Parliament cannot legislate any law repugnant to Constitution, injunctions of Islam and contrary to fundamental laws.

True, if by injunctions of Islam he is talking about cases where the legislatives make laws in violation of constitution saying this is granted by Islam.

“If such law is promulgated, Supreme Court under its power of Judicial Review can review it. The underlying object of judicial review is to check abuse of power by public functionaries and ensuring just and fair treatment to citizens in accordance with law and constitutional norms.”

Again accurate. Judicial review is a must for any functioning country.

The CJ said: “The system in our country is parliamentary system. From 1973 onward there have been National Assemblies and Senate but on account of Constitutional turmoil time and again there had been intervention in Parliamentary System, therefore, the expectations of people attached with Parliament could not be fulfilled. Parliament is required to give laws in accordance with Constitution for betterment of public at large so that laws can be made applicable.”

Correct again. Laws have to be made in accordance with constitution.

The CJ stressed that the Constitution is a complete document which answers all questions, adding that every organ of the State enjoys complete institutional independence within its constitutional domain, however, any excess or misuse of power beyond that domain becomes the subject matter of judicial scrutiny.

Correct again. Constitution is the law of the land.

Speaking about fundamental rights, he said, where any question of public importance arises with reference to enforcement of any of Fundamental Rights ensured by the Constitution of Pakistan; then the Supreme Court has power to make any appropriate order for enforcement of these rights.

Correct again. Supreme Court has suo motu powers in Pakistan. This has been invoked in many cases which have been hailed by the public as examples of a vibrant judiciary. Where as the high courts don't have this power. There was some dawn article in which a high court chief justice says the same thing. The same activist streak that people liked, has landed the CJ in soup when it came to disqualifying the PM. The constitutional impasse came because of the indifference of the ex-PM. I can elaborate, but in a different post.

The law applies to all, irrespective of their status, power, caste, creed and religion. No one can claim supremacy over and above the law, the CJ added.

Again true.

 

[Jango]

There is a rumor going on that PPP will try a amendment that the immunity of the president cannot be challenged anywhere, and one more amendment.

Considering that they got 211 votes for rental raja, a majority for amendment seems unlikely unless Malik Riaz can donate some money to some MNA's.

But still, what role could the judiciary have then?

I still think that it is totally absurd that in a Islamic republic where no law shall be against the principles of Islam, grants the president immunity.

 

[rubyjackass]

There is a rumor going on that PPP will try a amendment that the immunity of the president cannot be challenged anywhere, and one more amendment.

Considering that they got 211 votes for rental raja, a majority for amendment seems unlikely unless Malik Riaz can donate some money to some MNA's.

But still, what role could the judiciary have then?

I still think that it is totally absurd that in a Islamic republic where no law shall be against the principles of Islam, grants the president immunity.

Presidential immunity is already there in Pakistan's constitution. This immunity is absolute in criminal cases. But it will last only as long as the person is the President. Once he loses the position, he can be hounded again.